PSA: Temp / Perma Bans for Trading Malefic Cores in Visions.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well, glad you figured it out. Thanks for your astute observations and you have done the galaxy a service.

- - - Updated - - -



I see what you did thar!


It appears people on the internet can't disagree without berating the other person. If only we could just disagree and have different opinions.

This isn't a case of disagreeing. This is a case of you just being flat out wrong. No game is perfect just as no person is perfect. Error in code will happen. The ToS states that if you notice a bug to report it but if you continue to exploit said bug, you will be punished. The topic of this thread was very clearly a bug. The people who were banned as a result absolutely deserved it.

- - - Updated - - -

Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

Is using spellsteal an exploit?
Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

Its simply clever use. IMO

The reason he was banned was because he then started just farming the Military Wing with his guild to give them free loot. He absolutely deserved to get banned.

[exochaft]

"clever use of game mechanics" is a misused term... game mechanics are intended. Unintended effects such as bugs aren't game mechanics...they are bugs.
The correct term is exploiting. Not all exploiting is bad or harmful though, doesn't change what they are.

Perfect example is the infinite N'zoth assault weekly chest when it first came out, and why the temporary bans were rescinded. Pretty much what happened was that key fragments would always drop after you used your weekly chest key, and if you collected enough fragments and found the chest again, you could loot it as much as you want. Considering it was a brand new patch and the behavior was on the PTR, no one really questioned it. After the bans went out, Blizz rescinded them because what they thought exploitative behavior was necessary for this to happen, but they discovered it was just doing what you'd normally do in the game (i.e. using regular game mechanics, although not necessarily clever for this). If you had to perform specific actions that you'd normally not do when playing the game to reap the benefits of this bug, I guarantee the bans would've been kept in place.

[tehdef]

Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

Is using spellsteal an exploit?
Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

Its simply clever use. IMO

Man, with people like you in the world, no wonder COVID is spreading like it is. I detest people that try to explain away cheating.

[huth]

How much research is required for players to play the game without being banned for playing it as it's intended? Asking for a friend.

None. The source is known, you just need to go and actually look at it. That's not research.

[Big Thanks]

Man, with people like you in the world, no wonder COVID is spreading like it is. I detest people that try to explain away cheating.

Yeah and MMO-C was a much nicer place without constant flame and toxicity.

See the thread about the mage piccolina? 90% only people praising the guy and saying "it was cool".

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...litary-Quarter

MMO-C is a toxic place now.

[huth]

Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.

You weren't exploiting, though, so it's not covered by the statement you quoted.

[themaster24]

Its an exploit why again? Remind me exactly why its an exploit...

Is using spellsteal an exploit?
Is picking 2 talents from the talent tree an exploit?
Is keeping mobs alive an exploit?

Its simply clever use. IMO

You are trying to split an exploit into the individual aspects and pretending like it's not the sum of it's parts. You don't get to just point out each things and say but that alone isn't an exploit. It's when you combine all the things he did that it becomes an exploit. It's precedent, as set by Blizzard. You can keep calling it clever use, but the Court of Blizzard ruled it exploitation, as does arguably most of the community. It's no different than when players were trying to bring buffs from the overworld into raids/dungeons. Those buffs were clearly not intended to be used inside instanced content, and if a bug allowed them to persist, then you were abusing that bug, thus exploiting. Yes, getting that buff was normally considered typical gameplay, but trying to game the system by making it persist in raid is not.

[Dalinos]

You are trying to split an exploit into the individual aspects and pretending like it's not the sum of it's parts. You don't get to just point out each things and say but that alone isn't an exploit. It's when you combine all the things he did that it becomes an exploit. It's precedent, as set by Blizzard. You can keep calling it clever use, but the Court of Blizzard ruled it exploitation, as does arguably most of the community. It's no different than when players were trying to bring buffs from the overworld into raids/dungeons. Those buffs were clearly not intended to be used inside instanced content, and if a bug allowed them to persist, then you were abusing that bug, thus exploiting. Yes, getting that buff was normally considered typical gameplay, but trying to game the system by making it persist in raid is not.

Inner Sanctum (PVE guild on Silvermoon, alliance side) used a similar "exploit" to get world first Hodir Hardmode in Ulduar 25man. The DPS requirement to get Hodir Hardmode was insane, so they kited the flower-trash mobs from Freya's wing of the raid to Hodir's so that the mages could spellsteal a buff the plants gave themselves that increased your casting speed by like 50%. Their Hodir Hardmode World First still stands to this day. The mage you're talking about only got banned because he didn't keep it to himself, and gave loot to his whole guild. Inner Sanctum though used exactly the same tactic (kiting a mob to spellsteal its buff from 1 side of the raid to the other), and did not get punished for it.

In interviews after the fight, they conceded that it actually made the fight harder, since you had an extra set of adds to always keep an eye out on, but the increase in dmg their mages got was too good to pass up on. So, they basically did Hodir Hardmode squared.

Hence, it wasn't the fact he Spellstole a 1-million-absorb Bone Shield and used Incanter's Absorption to reach obscene amounts of Spell-Power that was the problem. It was the fact he got loot for everyone while using this clever use of game mechanics.

[themaster24]

Inner Sanctum (PVE guild on Silvermoon, alliance side) used a similar "exploit" to get world first Hodir Hardmode in Ulduar 25man. The DPS requirement to get Hodir Hardmode was insane, so they kited the flower-trash mobs from Freya's wing of the raid to Hodir's so that the mages could spellsteal a buff the plants gave themselves that increased your casting speed by like 50%. Their Hodir Hardmode World First still stands to this day. The mage you're talking about only got banned because he didn't keep it to himself, and gave loot to his whole guild. Inner Sanctum though used exactly the same tactic (kiting a mob to spellsteal its buff from 1 side of the raid to the other), and did not get punished for it.

In interviews after the fight, they conceded that it actually made the fight harder, since you had an extra set of adds to always keep an eye out on, but the increase in dmg their mages got was too good to pass up on. So, they basically did Hodir Hardmode squared.

Hence, it wasn't the fact he Spellstole a 1-million-absorb Bone Shield and used Incanter's Absorption to reach obscene amounts of Spell-Power that was the problem. It was the fact he got loot for everyone while using this clever use of game mechanics.

There are Key differences between the two situations. Firstly, what Inner Sanctum (and Ensidia) did was still pretty much an exploit (that pretty much all guilds did at the time since Hodir was a near impossible DPS check). Here's part of Ensidia's own word on the matter as well:

"So we decided after some thought to use Flower Power. I guess you could say it's like using a World Buff, but it's a pretty retarded strategy. Essentially you end up with 5 mages doing 250% more damage. With this we made it with literally 0.03 seconds left.

So a ridiculous strategy for the most ridiculous fight in the game. I'm not saying it's easy to do it this way because it really isn't. It is however the ONLY way to kill him at this point. We are not going to be screwed over by Blizzard trying to block Algalon 25 man when other guilds have already completed it, so we did what we had to.

We sincerely hope that Blizzard decides to correct this boss and the Flower Power. We will not use it for any other boss, but this fight just goes completely against everything Blizzard has said they want to make raiding. I've mailed Blizzard to this effect and we sincerely hope they fix both Hodir and Flower Power."

One of the key things about why Blizz likely allowed those that used that tactic to get away is explained by this comment from the time (note, there's a reference to a guild that got banned for exploiting HM Yogg):

"Imo there is a huge difference between then yogg and hodir incident. Exodus used an evade bug that basicly removed all that p3 is about. While ensidia stole a buff from trash and used it to do more dps, but the fight was still the same, with the same challanges and solutions. And thay still only beat the enrage with a few sec, meaning it did not trivialize the fight"

Ensidia, Inner Sanctum, and others, they didn't trivialize the fight, or the raid, with what they did. I still personally think that what went down with Hodir deserved punishment from the start, but I can understand blizzard giving a pass in this specific incident. What the mage did in Naxx, however, did trivialize things. He was capable of doing the Military Wing Solo. Bringing his guild along for the ride was just icing on the suspension cake.

Now, is Blizz consistent with meting out punishments? No, not really. Some people get week long bans for random things, while the Mage got a 24hr ban, and Exodus got a 3 day ban. That's where Blizz needs to make efforts to be more clear about how punishments are determined

[Jonnusthegreat]

If opinions can not be correct then why did you just get done arguing that opinions are never wrong? You can not be incorrect and right at the same time. Which means you are confusing the issue. You are never wrong for having an opinion but opinions can be right or wrong.

They are neither correct nor incorrect - that's what an opinion is. Holy.

- - - Updated - - -

And while you're entitled to have the opinion of 'X Race is better than Y Race', because "Racism" isn't illegal, Discrimination, based on Race (Gender, Nationality, Sexuality, etc) is, very much, Illegal. Take that how you will.

"The Earth is Flat." Is an opinion and has been proven wrong, by science, time and time again.

"The moonlanding didn't happen." Again, an opinion, proven wrong.

"The holocaust didn't happen." Again, an opinion, proven wrong.

They are Opinions AND beliefs, or rather, Opinions that through sheer force of stupidity, became beliefs, but are rendered no less completely fucking wrong.

"The Earth is Flat" is not an opinion. It's a belief.

Instead of typing all of these, they are not opinions. They are beliefs. Beliefs and opinions are different.

[FelPlague]

My first account was perma banned for a first offence.

Also exploiting is far less serious then botting.
botting is literally automating the game, using a third party program
exploiting can be acidently done ingame.

[rrayy]

Oh I can tell you from experiance that is not true. My first account was perma banned for a first offence.



I was botting Saronite Ore, smelting it into bars and vendoring them, as the vendor price was 25G a stack back then in Wrath. I didn't sell anything to anyone else. Never had a warning or anything else on it. Straight account closure.

You weren't exploiting. You were botting. Two complete separate acts.

[Jonnusthegreat]

When you ignore everything I write and focus on that single sentence, I guess so.


"Specific rules" overrule "general rules". That's a basic concept.


But it is reasonable to require players who desire to remain informed to access the main website, were news are posted on the front page.


Exploiting a bug/glitch = cheating.


No, I don't. I agree that Blizzard should ban cheaters. Which they did.

Keep one thing in mind: Blizzard never bans on first offenses, and they never ban on single offenses that could be just 'honest mistakes' unless the players have a bad track record. I've yet to see a single "ZOMG BLIZZARD BANNED ME SO UNFAIRLY!!" thread in which the situation happened exactly like the OP described. In my experience, they're always hiding important information to make themselves look innocent.

I did not ignore everything you wrote. I countered each point. Most of which you responded with "you're dumb." It's not looking good for you.

I would agree that specific rules overrule general rules. Great point. I would also say that in-game rules overrule forum rules. This is where we disagree.

Being informed beyond the scope of the game is a good thing to do. But to require it as protection from being banned is where it goes too far.

I don't consider following game mechanics cheating. This is where we disagree.

Based on previous point, this is not relevant anymore.

This is not true. Blizzard does ban on first offenses of using game mechanics if Blizzard deems it bannable. As creators of the game, this is their right. My opinion is that this is stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Bugs and glitches are not intended parts of the programming. How is this hard for you to understand?

Or do you honestly think Blizzard intentionally programs glitches and bugs? You think they do this to 'trap' players and ban them, as if they somehow have a monthly quota of players to ban?

As I have said at least three times in the thread already, I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to know which programmed mechanics are bugs and which are not bugs.

I don't think they intentionally program glitches and bugs. I do think that if Blizzard messes up, it should not be the players who are responsible for Blizzard's mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't a case of disagreeing. This is a case of you just being flat out wrong. No game is perfect just as no person is perfect. Error in code will happen. The ToS states that if you notice a bug to report it but if you continue to exploit said bug, you will be punished. The topic of this thread was very clearly a bug. The people who were banned as a result absolutely deserved it.

Again, opinions cannot be wrong. You can disagree, but I cannot be wrong. Error in code happens. The ToS states this, yes. It is not very clearly a bug. There is conflicting information in regards to what is allowable with the Malefic Cores. This is where my opinion is different from the rules in place. Imagine having the opinion that slavery is wrong in the USA in 1860 and being berated for your opinion. This is what you are doing. You are berating an individual for having an opinion that conflicts with the rules in place. How embarrassing.

- - - Updated - - -

None. The source is known, you just need to go and actually look at it. That's not research.

The source of the game? Great, the game told me that I could trade it! Glad I won't get banned for doing what the game told me I could do!

- - - Updated - - -

Also exploiting is far less serious then botting.
botting is literally automating the game, using a third party program
exploiting can be acidently done ingame.

This is why exploiting should never have bans as a repercussion.

[rhorle]

They are neither correct nor incorrect - that's what an opinion is. Holy.

They can't be both at the same time. Something is either right or its wrong. An persons opinion can be right or wrong but that doesn't automatically mean they are factually right or wrong. Again it is that you are never wrong for having an opinion but your opinion can be wrong. You have both argued that opinions can not be wrong and that they are always wrong. And yet you refuse to admit that you are wrong on one of those accounts.

[Jonnusthegreat]

They can't be both at the same time. Something is either right or its wrong. An persons opinion can be right or wrong but that doesn't automatically mean they are factually right or wrong. Again it is that you are never wrong for having an opinion but your opinion can be wrong. You have both argued that opinions can not be wrong and that they are always wrong. And yet you refuse to admit that you are wrong on one of those accounts.

This is wrong. Here's an example: "Purple is the best color." Now tell me, is that right or wrong? One word answers only, please.

I have never argued that opinions are ever wrong. It is impossible for opinions to be wrong.

[Ielenia]

I did not ignore everything you wrote. I countered each point. Most of which you responded with "you're dumb." It's not looking good for you.

Again: you focused on that single sentence and ignored everything written past that.

I would agree that specific rules overrule general rules. Great point. I would also say that in-game rules overrule forum rules. This is where we disagree.

And you would be wrong. Dead wrong. Especially since it's a "in-game rule" but simply a bugged mechanic. All rules come from Blizzard, that write them on their official website.

Being informed beyond the scope of the game is a good thing to do. But to require it as protection from being banned is where it goes too far.

It's not "going too far". You follow the rules to avoid being punished. Rules exist to maintain fair play. Breaking the rules demands punishment. Banning is one such punishment.

I don't consider following game mechanics cheating. This is where we disagree.

And, again, you are wrong. Dead wrong. You're exploiting a bug. A defective game mechanic.

This is not true. Blizzard does ban on first offenses of using game mechanics if Blizzard deems it bannable. As creators of the game, this is their right. My opinion is that this is stupid.

Wrong. Blizzard never bans on first offenses. And for the record: doing the exploit 2+ times before being caught the first time does not count as a "single offense".

As I have said at least three times in the thread already, I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to know which programmed mechanics are bugs and which are not bugs.

I'm sorry if you're unreasonable, but it is reasonable to expect players to know what is a bug or not, and at the very least inform themselves if a given mechanic is a bug or not if it goes against established rules dictated by Blizzard.

I don't think they intentionally program glitches and bugs.

And yet you act as if you do:

I don't consider following game mechanics cheating.

Blizzard also announced that this item can be traded to those who are eligible. It is on the item itself.

You can only earn 1 raid item per week, yet they can be traded to you. This item can also be traded to you. It's not different.

I do think that if Blizzard messes up, it should not be the players who are responsible for Blizzard's mistake.

Which is why Blizzard never bans on first offenses, only on repeated offenses.

[rhorle]

As I have said at least three times in the thread already, I don't think it's reasonable to expect players to know which programmed mechanics are bugs and which are not bugs.

Which is why Blizzard rarely takes action if you do it once. It is when you do it multiple times that they tend to take action. Because it is reasonable for players to know the game and what is and is not likely intended. That is why most of the small things simply get fixed with out many account actions taken. Because they are small.

The source of the game? Great, the game told me that I could trade it! Glad I won't get banned for doing what the game told me I could do!

But that isn't the definition of exploiting. You can exploit the game with things that are normally possible to do. It is all about the ways you do something and the intention. There is a reason why people used to get in trouble for exploiting the economy. Or why extreme griefing/harassment can be against the rules. Just because you can do something in game doesn't mean you are allowed to do it. You are coming across as a spoiled child with this "If I can do it then it can't be illegal".

Exploiting rarely has a ban as a repercussion unless you took it to the extreme. Blizzard used to operate on a "penalty volcano". Where the more you did something the higher you went and the more drastic the repercussions could be. They don't seem to have it on the support page anymore so it isn't clear if they still operate on that exact policy. But I'm sure it is close. A ban and a suspension are not the same thing. One is temporary and one is longer though yes many use it interchangeably.

- - - Updated - - -

This is wrong. Here's an example: "Purple is the best color." Now tell me, is that right or wrong? One word answers only, please. I have never argued that opinions are ever wrong. It is impossible for opinions to be wrong.

But that is your belief that purple is the best color. Or do you not believe your own opinion? Opinions can be wrong all of the time. Some are subjective like a favorite color but some are not subjective at all. You have also said opinions are wrong. I quoted you the very post that you ignore. I'm sure you'll claim it was a typo but it was a pretty hard typo to make.

Opinions cannot be correct.

The OPINION is not wrong

You just argued opinions are ever wrong by saying the opinion is not wrong. You also argued that the opinion can never be correct. But opinions can be true or false. You are just changing the definitions to suit your argument so you do not have to be wrong. You keep using belief and opinion interchangeably depending on what point you need the meanings to make.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Again: you focused on that single sentence and ignored everything written past that.


And you would be wrong. Dead wrong. Especially since it's a "in-game rule" but simply a bugged mechanic. All rules come from Blizzard, that write them on their official website.


It's not "going too far". You follow the rules to avoid being punished. Rules exist to maintain fair play. Breaking the rules demands punishment. Banning is one such punishment.


And, again, you are wrong. Dead wrong. You're exploiting a bug. A defective game mechanic.


Wrong. Blizzard never bans on first offenses. And for the record: doing the exploit 2+ times before being caught the first time does not count as a "single offense".


I'm sorry if you're unreasonable, but it is reasonable to expect players to know what is a bug or not, and at the very least inform themselves if a given mechanic is a bug or not if it goes against established rules dictated by Blizzard.


And yet you act as if you do:






Which is why Blizzard never bans on first offenses, only on repeated offenses.

There were at least two sentences. You are objectively wrong, here.

It's an opinion. It can't be wrong.

People that traded cores did follow the in-game rules.

Cannot be wrong on an opinion. It is unclear whether it was unintended or not, based on conflicting messages from Blizzard.

You are wrong. There are lots of cases of first offense bans.

I am not being unreasonable. We disagree on expectations of players. Requiring people do out-of-game research to resist a ban is going to far. If the game says that something cannot be done, but it is programmed to be done, then yes, that is an obvious bug.

I don't see how any of these statements purport that Blizzard intentionally programs glitches and bugs. Please, enlighten me in a new post.

Blizzard bans on first offenses.

- - - Updated - - -

Which is why Blizzard rarely takes action if you do it once. It is when you do it multiple times that they tend to take action. Because it is reasonable for players to know the game and what is and is not likely intended. That is why most of the small things simply get fixed with out many account actions taken. Because they are small.



But that isn't the definition of exploiting. You can exploit the game with things that are normally possible to do. It is all about the ways you do something and the intention. There is a reason why people used to get in trouble for exploiting the economy. Or why extreme griefing/harassment can be against the rules. Just because you can do something in game doesn't mean you are allowed to do it. You are coming across as a spoiled child with this "If I can do it then it can't be illegal".

Exploiting rarely has a ban as a repercussion unless you took it to the extreme. Blizzard used to operate on a "penalty volcano". Where the more you did something the higher you went and the more drastic the repercussions could be. They don't seem to have it on the support page anymore so it isn't clear if they still operate on that exact policy. But I'm sure it is close. A ban and a suspension are not the same thing. One is temporary and one is longer though yes many use it interchangeably.

- - - Updated - - -



But that is your belief that purple is the best color. Or do you not believe your own opinion? Opinions can be wrong all of the time. Some are subjective like a favorite color but some are not subjective at all. You have also said opinions are wrong. I quoted you the very post that you ignore. I'm sure you'll claim it was a typo but it was a pretty hard typo to make.




You just argued opinions are ever wrong by saying the opinion is not wrong. You also argued that the opinion can never be correct. But opinions can be true or false. You are just changing the definitions to suit your argument so you do not have to be wrong. You keep using belief and opinion interchangeably depending on what point you need the meanings to make.

And I think that people should NEVER be banned for exploits. Exploiting is what the game is about. It's what every game is about. It's what life is about. Drawing an arbitrary line on what's too big of an exploit is not a philosophy I subscribe to.

If it is mentioned that you cannot do something in the game and you do it, yes, you deserve to get banned for it. I agree. That is not what this debate is about.

People that are good at games, and life, exploit everything to the maximum extent. This is smart. If you do something that's against the rules, that's not smart. I am saying that it is unclear whether or not this action was against the rules, and thus, should not have being banned as a result.

Yes, it is also my belief. That belief is also an opinion. I can also have beliefs that are based on facts. "Earth is Flat" is a belief that is not based on opinion, but based on facts. In this case, the facts are wrong. It can be proven that Earth is not flat, making this belief wrong. It does not make the opinion wrong, because it's not an opinion. It's a belief. Beliefs can be wrong. Opinions cannot.

Please, in a single, separate post, link what makes you think that I said opinions can be wrong because you still haven't linked anything that states that I ever said opinions can be wrong. You said twice that you did, but you didn't. I honestly have no clue what you're referring to.

[rhorle]

And I think that people should NEVER be banned for exploits. Exploiting is what the game is about. It's what every game is about. It's what life is about. Drawing an arbitrary line on what's too big of an exploit is not a philosophy I subscribe to.

That is the thing it doesn't matter what you believe or what your opinion on exploits is. What matters is the ToS and EULA and what they think of exploits. The game is not about exploiting either. It never has been and likely never will be. Nothing about WoW's gameplay is designed around the idea of exploiting. You already are drawing an arbitrary line on what is to big of an exploit by saying nothing is because all games are about exploiting.

If it is mentioned that you cannot do something in the game and you do it, yes, you deserve to get banned for it. I agree. That is not what this debate is about.

And yet you just said you are not subscribing to the philosophy or drawing arbitrary lines. And yet here you are doing just that.

Yes, it is also my belief. That belief is also an opinion.

And here we go with you flip flopping about what is belief and what is opinion when you want to prove yourself correct. You've stated multiple times that believes are not opinions. Opinions can both be subjective values and true and false values. An opinion is just a declarative statement about a belief.

- - - Updated - - -

Please, in a single, separate post, link what makes you think that I said opinions can be wrong because you still haven't linked anything that states that I ever said opinions can be wrong. You said twice that you did, but you didn't. I honestly have no clue what you're referring to.

If you are not willing to read the things I am quoting then why would linking it a third time "in a separate post" change that? Are you saying that you do not read what is in the posts people are responding to you with?

[Jonnusthegreat]

That is the thing it doesn't matter what you believe or what your opinion on exploits is. What matters is the ToS and EULA and what they think of exploits. The game is not about exploiting either. It never has been and likely never will be. Nothing about WoW's gameplay is designed around the idea of exploiting. You already are drawing an arbitrary line on what is to big of an exploit by saying nothing is because all games are about exploiting.



And yet you just said you are not subscribing to the philosophy or drawing arbitrary lines. And yet here you are doing just that.




And here we go with you flip flopping about what is belief and what is opinion when you want to prove yourself correct. You've stated multiple times that believes are not opinions. Opinions can both be subjective values and true and false values. An opinion is just a declarative statement about a belief.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are not willing to read the things I am quoting then why would linking it a third time "in a separate post" change that? Are you saying that you do not read what is in the posts people are responding to you with?

Correct. What I am saying is that this is an instance where ToS/EULA enter a grey area. It cannot be known to some people whether or not it's intended or not. Thus, no bans. Not drawing the line is not drawing it arbitrarily. For fairness, there should be no line. That's what I'm saying.

I can have an opinion that is counter to the authority's opinion. This is not drawing an arbitrary line. Welcome to living life as a minority.

It's not flip-flopping. You aren't comprehending correctly what I'm saying. Some beliefs are based on opinion. That does not mean that opinions and beliefs are the same thing. Doctors go to college. That doesn't mean that everyone that went to college is a doctor. It's simply a logical error you're making.

I am willing to read things you quote - nothing of what you quoted backs up what you are claiming.