View Poll Results: Which is better.

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  • No Major Class Overhaul

    98 52.97%
  • Major Class Overhaul Every Expansion

    87 47.03%
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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    A major class rework every xpac would be seriously annoying and hard to do.
    Just work on those that are in a weird/bad spot. No need to overhaul what is working
    Nothing is working.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Right now I'm hoping the next class revamp they do is turning one of the rogue specs into a ranged spec.
    Like some Ninja throwing star specs?

  3. #83
    After the disaster that were Legion class reworks, we definitely need major overhauls for most if not all specs in the game. There's not a single thing in the history of this game that has sucked as much fun out of the meat of the gameplay as the Legion class reworks.

  4. #84
    As much as I dislike the current class design, I don't want them to do another overhaul. Fix and polish what's already there. Essentially resetting everything again with how understaffed the class team is would probably be a nightmare.
    Definitely don't do it every expansion just for the sake of it, and I would've preferred MoP as the baseline rather than Legion, but at some point the overhauls need to stop in favor of just polishing.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2020-03-27 at 09:06 PM.
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  5. #85
    Warchief Wangming's Avatar
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    I dislike huge overhauls every expansion, but classes are simply not fun at present. They need considerable work.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    God, I desperately hope snap shooting doesn't come back. It was just an annoying and frustrating system that pretty much always felt punishing if you weren't an absolute top player.
    I mean, I never optimized it. I never had an addon that calulated my DoTs and told me when to refresh. But having one or two nice trinkets and playing around them was pretty fun for me. Only thing I did not like was the randomness of such trinket procs. But in MoP with the RPpM and bad luck protection mechanic that was not so bad. Unlike Legion, where somehow even without snapshotting a trinket proc could make or break your entire DPS on a Bossfight

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post

    God, I desperately hope snap shooting doesn't come back. It was just an annoying and frustrating system that pretty much always felt punishing if you weren't an absolute top player.
    Good. There's nowhere near enough room for skill expression in current WoW, and that's the main thing that needs to come back. There should be noticeable increases in damage for min/maxing, instead of the current situation where you get 90% of the performance for like 20% perfect play instead of having a more direct relationship between level of play and performance.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Most of the specs don't need more than some cleaning up.

    But dammit, give me back ranged survival in some way.
    Please don't get rid of Melee tho, literally only reason I play Hunter any more.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Well said well said!
    I'd like to add that playing alts that are "within reach" is part of this, too. People love to try the fotm - or try to beat the fotm with unusual strategies. It's the part of the game's evolution. BfA and to some extent, even legion skipped on this.

    Blizz maybe tried to capture this fantasy with new azerite traits, but failed (+secondary stats while you have 20+ corruption.. yeah, interesting...), maybe essences were part of this, but people don't like to try the same shit again and again.
    People who play MMOs want some spiciness, bc we don't just play the story with "whatever", we are playing WITH our characters.
    And if playing our chars suck, well... this happens. Some like it I'm sure, but most find it boring. I find it boring, too.
    yep, totally agree to that.

  10. #90
    One of the best things back in the day was getting a new talent or spell for your class.. i really want that again instead of these borrowed powers all the time.

  11. #91
    To be fair, I think it's time to give all classes talent trees overhaul. It has been like what WoD since they made significant changes to the talent trees.

    I would love to see the classes talent trees go back to MoP system as it is one of the best and a favorite of mine.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Please don't get rid of Melee tho, literally only reason I play Hunter any more.
    It should have been beast master that became melee, I mean does blizzard not look at Rexxar and scream Beastmaster.

  13. #93
    There is no clear cut answer other than making sure the spec is enjoyable while appealing to its theme, and yes I know that "enjoyable" is subjective. Since I've started WoW in tBC there have been amazing changes and very questionable ones as well. There are some playstyles in Legion/Bfa that I actually enjoy (i.e. UH Dk) and some I abhor (Spriest and Frost DK). They can't make everyone happy.

    What I do acknowledge is that they have done a better job in keeping classes closer together in terms of potential (mostly looking at dps). Logs have been getting more flattened, unlike prior expansions where one spec can easily do double the output of others.
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  14. #94
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    Nothing will be "MAJOR" on Shadowlands, just unprunning, and after that the Devs will see how classes are going to work.
    Just look at the 3 different specs of rogues. Am telling you right now, Outlaw its going to be more broken with poisons. Assa will continue to be the same but probably Sublevity will rise from the shithole its in.

    Next expansion its when we can see BIG CHANGES for every class.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Blizz has said that Shadowlands will not see a revamp of the classes on the level that we saw in Legion and BFA, just some unpruning and a bit of 'all specs have this ability again'.

    In general I enjoyed the spec revamps, except when they removed talents or spells I liked. I still haven't forgiven Blizz for getting rid of Heroic Strike/Cleave for prot warriors.
    I haven't played my dk more than 30 minutes since they got rid of the 3 runes system. To me it's a different class now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  16. #96
    We have no idea how they are changing classes beyond the fact that we will not see any super big legion style reworks and personally I am OK with that

    My monk is in a pretty good place my paladin is going to be in a better place and I am fine with simply getting a rework on a few rotational spells or a new spell here and there I don’t want an entire revamp

  17. #97
    I am Murloc! Kuja's Avatar
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    When there's no new class, then existing classes should get something new and cool. Like a fourth spec this time.

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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    A few things:
    - The baseline rotation is a bit too simple, abilities have little interplay, and the kit leaves little room for making plays
    Abilities build rage and rage is used for a maintenance buff or extra damage; compare with VDH or BDK where pain/runic power fund the impactful abilities. What's the most impactful ability for Guardian? Nothing feels as good as setting up and hitting a big Spirit Bomb or building to an impactful Bonestorm for a big pull in M+. You just spam mange/thrash/swipe, press frenzied regen/barkskin/survival instincts when you need them.

    - Rage of the Sleeper was a great CD that increased your damage, survivability, and self-sustain and it felt awful losing it.
    Incarnation is nice but it competes with the talent that makes the rotation tolerable.
    Rage would make a nice ability to bring back - but like those other abilities it probably would be a talent, not baseline.

    As someone who played VDH for all of Legion and a fair bit of BfA, I actually fucking loathe Spirit Bomb. Conceptually I like it, and it's powerful, but the delay before it goes off feels so trash to me. And using it over and over just rubs that tooth-grinding delay in my face. It's weird. I feel pretty strongly about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    - Without Galactic Guardian, the only difference in your rotation are Gore procs; it should really be baseline.
    Legion had some cool gameplay - I had a blast doing M+ with Galactic Guardian, the moonfire shoulders, and the cape that granted 30% healing from arcane/nature damage.
    I definitely agree re: GG should be baseline. It is dumb that it's a talent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Also talking about ingame limitations: I don't watch Preach often, but one video got me hooked (because I like dice ). In that video he makes a connection between the game lagging/stuttering and the removal of snapshotting. To break it down: BfA added so many procs/random effects that have to be calculated every tick for dozents of players and DoT's on multiple mobs that the servers just don't keep up. And I have to agree: The performance of BfA is serverly worse than other Expansions.
    See I don't buy Preach's explanation at all. It doesn't hold up, and the way he explains it, it seems like he really, on a basic level, doesn't understand how fake-RNG systems like the ones WoW and other MMOs use actually work, and that he thinks they're high-overhead serious-RNG systems (which would do what he describes).

    Also BfA having "severely worse" performance seems like bollocks to me. I haven't see any evidence to support it being worse than previous expansions, nor seen the poor performance happen to me. It's all Onxyia Deep Breaths More imho. Every example people have given me is stuff that was true in previous expansions, or stuff that is unique to BfA and not possible to compare, and that lagged from the moment it appeared, and didn't get worse with corruption or anything. I've had this argument before and no-one produced any actual evidence. One guy swore blind that the TM vs SS Brawl didn't lag at all in Legion, but I know for a fact that's a massive fucking lie, because I played that Brawl to death in Legion, and it lagged like a motherfucker (and yes I do mean actual lag, not low FPS or anything, I've been playing online games since Quake 1). I had one guy on reddit telling me the Preach stuff and then he admitted he'd seen all the stuff he was complaining about in Legion, and some of it in WoD, and it's like what the fuck man? If you saw all that in Legion too, why would you believe Preach?

    Re: "complex specs", I think there's a place for them (really only for DPS - you need the situational awareness that they drain for tanking and healing). That place is absolutely not on hybrid classes, complex DPS specs should be DPS classes, as one of the specs for those. That Shadow has been both complex and generally poorly performing for most of WoW is a kind of dark miracle of bad design, and having both Feral and Boomkin be fiddly and annoying, as Druid specs, as they were in MoP/WoD, where you also are supposed to know a tank spec and a healing spec is ridiculous. It makes zero sense to make that sort of spec complicated.

    Instead Mage/Rogue/Warlock etc. should each have one "complex" spec for people into that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    I mean, one can't argue taste. I for one like casters and even though WL are top DPS once more, I don't like them in BfA. I'm sure there are specs that are fun right now (many healers seem pretty good), but I like DPSing more than healing or tanking. And for a DPS and especially casters BfA feels subpar to me.
    As someone who focuses on tanking and healing I'm generally a lot happier with BfA and Legion than, well, most previous expansions. But I can see when I do play a DPS spec that a lot of them don't seem to have the flexibility and engaging-ness of some earlier incarnations. Of course some are clearly more fun than they were...
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-03-29 at 06:16 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post

    See I don't buy Preach's explanation at all. It doesn't hold up, and the way he explains it, it seems like he really, on a basic level, doesn't understand how fake-RNG systems like the ones WoW and other MMOs use actually work, and that he thinks they're high-overhead serious-RNG systems (which would do what he describes).
    I don't think that calculating the (pseudo-) RNG is a problem. But the amount of calculations may be one. WoW is an old game with an old engine. Snapshotting as a mechanic was introduced, because dynamic scaling was technically impossible at the time Vanilla launched. Now the servers are much better but they have to handle much more load as well. On top of calculating all damage for all players of a given area each tick for each mob since snapshotting was abandoned, the servers must also synchronize itemlevel scaling (which was new with Legion) and other newer systems, while also not being dedicated anymore. Of course I don't exactly know how the Blizzard servers work, but sharding is taking a pretty hefty toll and that's noticable. Whether you are randomly put into another shard (despawning mobs mid-fight happens annoyingly often to me) or get disconnected on shard-switch, there are many examples. I know, if you don't have those problems you just have to take my word for it that it happens to me. But WoW's servers seems pretty strained to me.

    Also BfA having "severely worse" performance seems like bollocks to me. I haven't see any evidence to support it being worse than previous expansions, nor seen the poor performance happen to me. It's all Onxyia Deep Breaths More imho. Every example people have given me is stuff that was true in previous expansions, or stuff that is unique to BfA and not possible to compare, and that lagged from the moment it appeared, and didn't get worse with corruption or anything. I've had this argument before and no-one produced any actual evidence. One guy swore blind that the TM vs SS Brawl didn't lag at all in Legion, but I know for a fact that's a massive fucking lie, because I played that Brawl to death in Legion, and it lagged like a motherfucker (and yes I do mean actual lag, not low FPS or anything, I've been playing online games since Quake 1). I had one guy on reddit telling me the Preach stuff and then he admitted he'd seen all the stuff he was complaining about in Legion, and some of it in WoD, and it's like what the fuck man? If you saw all that in Legion too, why would you believe Preach?
    I personally noticed more problems since Legion, but those are somewhat worse with BfA. One explanation might be that I played at the end of Legion and at the beginning of BfA, meaning more players strain BfA's servers. But the performance certainly did not get better as you would expect from a newer, more optimized and polished product.

    Re: "complex specs", I think there's a place for them (really only for DPS - you need the situational awareness that they drain for tanking and healing). That place is absolutely not on hybrid classes, complex DPS specs should be DPS classes, as one of the specs for those. That Shadow has been both complex and generally poorly performing for most of WoW is a kind of dark miracle of bad design, and having both Feral and Boomkin be fiddly and annoying, as Druid specs, as they were in MoP/WoD, where you also are supposed to know a tank spec and a healing spec is ridiculous. It makes zero sense to make that sort of spec complicated.


    Instead Mage/Rogue/Warlock etc. should each have one "complex" spec for people into that.
    Complex classes does not have to be fiddly. Their complexity could come from gameplay variation: For example in the past it made sometimes sense to replace one filler spell with another one, once you hit a specific amount of secondary stats. Legiondaries made specs more complex, as they gave you options on how you wanted to play a certain fight. In the best case, the current talent system gives you options. Azerite could give complexity. And yes, I agree, Hybrid classes don't need to be complex, because they have variety in the class kit. But 3 boring specs on a pure DPS class just makes you reroll.

    As someone who focuses on tanking and healing I'm generally a lot happier with BfA and Legion than, well, most previous expansions. But I can see when I do play a DPS spec that a lot of them don't seem to have the flexibility and engaging-ness of some earlier incarnations. Of course some are clearly more fun than they were...
    I tried healing at the beginning of BfA (Mistweaver) and from my experience BfA might be the best expansion for healers overall, as it's the most challenging. Tanking I did not like as much, but that's because I like to be a pretty indepentent tank (Blood DK) and BfA nerfed tank self heal pretty harsh.

  20. #100
    They need to get the specs in a good spot, and then stop fucking with them. Most of them felt good at the end of Legion, then they tried to reinvent the wheel in BfA, and the wheel became a square.
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