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  1. #1

    Where's the Balance Druid really in lore?Is it more kaldorei magic than real druidic?

    Where is the Balance Druid really in lore? Is what we see more kaldorei magic than real druidic? Is this a case similar to the Tidesages and Blood Knights where the calss you play is not properly fit to the fantasy - except for this one, they wanted to give it, had no where to put it, and the druid was the closest fit..?

    I say that because despite being a part of the class, you never hear about this part of it in the books or lore. Lots of trees, healing, emerald dream, animals, even hurricanes and storm - but calling down stars, stellar and astral arcane magic, solar power, Elune creatures? This sounds more like a mage and in lore only shows up with night elf related arcane or priestly callings. It has shown up in the priest and highborne/Nightborne mages, and lore mentions this more in relation to kaldorei civilization.


    Did you never not wonder what both arcane magic and Elune stuff was doing in a druid toolkit? The stars, the arcane Well of Eternity, Elune, the Moon and the night have always been kaldorei thing - we see this in War of the Ancients before Malfurion becomes a druid, we see it in the arcane culture, we see it in the priesthood, we see it in the druid class in the long vigil.

    I Suspect
    My guess it is more a racial feature, magic more particularly tied to the night elves. Just like the trolls seem to have a connection to blood magic more so than any, Forsaken to Death magic, sor t of thing. I suspect it shows up in the druid class, because unlike priest and mage who also have historical very strong ties with the ngiht elves, druid was the only one that was exclusive to them (until wow ofc where it was kept relatively exclusive with only 1 additional race allowing - so Priest and Mage already had other identities, despite the night elves creating the mage class, Krin'tor and high elf magic is already established by the time the night elves are introduced, as is the Light and the priest class. So Mage and Priest don't have signs of this, except in classic if you were a night elf priest you had starshards to reflect this, and in classic the Darnassian night elves hadn't returned to the arcane so there was no need to reflect this in the mage class. It's only avenue became the druid - especially since iti s quite unique to the magic toolkit of the Kaldorei set.

    However since the druid, it has actually continued to play a role in the Kaldorei priests and arcane wielding Moonguard, highborne and nightboren, with rarely a mention in the druidlore.

    1. Druid class has the abilities - but there is no mention in lore or the books like Stormrage or WotA of druids calling down the stars or moon. In WotA Cenarius casts a powerful ball of sunlight energy. Which wrath spell eventually becomes in Cataclysm onwards. Other than that, in the books the druids cast things like vines, hurricanes, cyclones, earthquakes, thorns, rally the living creatures and animals to fight with them, they wak e up the trees as welll


    I suspect that this aspect of the spec is more like the Tidesages and the Blood Knights - basically an aspect that isn't really the class, but doesn't have a full enough kit.


    Musings
    The balance druid seems to be more a kaldorei culture thing - using the star, moon and sun magic - is a very elven, especially kaldorei thing. We see the priestesses of Elune using this magic, we also see the Nightborne and Moonguard in Suramar using this sort of arcane magic related to the stars.


    Furthermore, the balance druid form was chosen to be an Elune thing, putting it in the kaldorei culture realm.

    What I think has happened, is that like the Tidesages aren't really shaman but use the shaman tool set, the balance druid set isn't really druidic but because druidsm is heavily night elf influenced, part of the class has this arcane/astral magic side.

    Kaldorei - means Children of the Stars,

    Stars and moon play a heavy role in the night elf art set, history etc. Night elf civilization was full of Astrological towers, Temples to Elune head moon and star symbolism, and the night elves draw the arcane energy from the stars.

    We get a deeper look into the civilization side of things in Suramar, Star Augur Ertraeus and the Astromancers and the spells they cast, we also see the High Botanist using the same solar, lunar, stellar magic in the balance druid toolse.



    Bu

  2. #2
    It probably is, there is no hint of star/moon arcane magic or solar from the drust druids or loa druids - they are far more vines, thorns and animals.

    But blizzard didn't do anything for the night elf priest - Not a single Elune, star or moon spell in the night elf priest player abilities - but the lore says every night elf priest is pretty much a Priest of Elune - but the class doesn't show it when you play night elf.

    Also this should be in the lore forum.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    It probably is, there is no hint of star/moon arcane magic or solar from the drust druids or loa druids - they are far more vines, thorns and animals.

    But blizzard didn't do anything for the night elf priest - Not a single Elune, star or moon spell in the night elf priest player abilities - but the lore says every night elf priest is pretty much a Priest of Elune - but the class doesn't show it when you play night elf.

    Also this should be in the lore forum.
    Back in Vanilla, when each priest race had unique spells, Night Elves used to have Starshards and Elune's Grace.

    Oh as for the "star/moon Loa" for the zandalari or even regular darkspear... https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lun%27alai
    Last edited by Venziir; 2020-03-26 at 04:44 PM.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  4. #4
    Priests used to wield a Night Elf specific racial ability that called down Stars before it as eventually adopted as a talent point endcap keystone as Starfall. With Moonkin already being referenced in quests as having ties to Elune, and Balance druids already using the form as a way to increase their armor so that the spec had a shapeshift to fulfill the class fantasy, Balance druids had to lean further into the form's origins, even though Elune herself hasn't appeared or been defined very solidly. A lot of the focus of Elune was of the mysterious unknowable nature of her, but with these couple of Star focused abilities having more distiction than say, a Resto spec that already focused on nature, Balance was put in the compromising situation of having to be built as an astrologist stargazer spec because it would be the most unique spec identity going into Legion, when the Scythe of Elune was utilized. It could have been given to priests in hindsight, and maybe something like the Horn if Cenarius could have been used for Balance to focus them back into nature magic.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Back in Vanilla, when each priest race had unique spells, Night Elves used to have Starshards and Elune's Grace.
    Yes. Starshards used to be a channelled DPS spell. (It was cool to see a female night elf pump 2 fists in the air and channel Starshards). Later it became a racial DoT like Devouring Plague (dev plague was also a racial but for Forsaken). Then DP became baseline for ALL priests and Starshards was removed.

    Homogenization destroyed Starshards and now nelfs have a plague spell lol. Lore and immersion be damned.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Yes. Starshards used to be a channelled DPS spell. (It was cool to see a female night elf pump 2 fists in the air and channel Starshards). Later it became a racial DoT like Devouring Plague (dev plague was also a racial but for Forsaken). Then DP became baseline for ALL priests and Starshards was removed.

    Homogenization destroyed Starshards and now nelfs have a plague spell lol. Lore and immersion be damned.
    DP is gone now though, removed in BFA

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    DP is gone now though, removed in BFA
    Oh wow. You're right.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post


    Musings
    The balance druid seems to be more a kaldorei culture thing - using the star, moon and sun magic - is a very elven, especially kaldorei thing. We see the priestesses of Elune using this magic, we also see the Nightborne and Moonguard in Suramar using this sort of arcane magic related to the stars.


    Furthermore, the balance druid form was chosen to be an Elune thing, putting it in the kaldorei culture realm.

    What I think has happened, is that like the Tidesages aren't really shaman but use the shaman tool set, the balance druid set isn't really druidic but because druidsm is heavily night elf influenced, part of the class has this arcane/astral magic side.

    Kaldorei - means Children of the Stars,

    Stars and moon play a heavy role in the night elf art set, history etc. Night elf civilization was full of Astrological towers, Temples to Elune head moon and star symbolism, and the night elves draw the arcane energy from the stars.

    We get a deeper look into the civilization side of things in Suramar, Star Augur Ertraeus and the Astromancers and the spells they cast, we also see the High Botanist using the same solar, lunar, stellar magic in the balance druid toolse.



    Bu
    Just cos it isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t there. If it is shown then it is a part. Druids do use these spells and can cast arcane spells – I would not have pegged you as one of those night elves can’t do magic people.

    Not everything is described in the lore, a lot of stuff is shown - visual information counts. And conversely not everything in the lore is shown. In fact a lot of important things aren't shown - so it's worth reading the lore and using all the information together to get an informed opinion.

    The lore isn't perfect, it also has holes, things not fleshed out cos they haven't really been decided.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just cos it isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t there. If it is shown then it is a part. Druids do use these spells and can cast arcane spells – I would not have pegged you as one of those night elves can’t do magic people.

    Not everything is described in the lore, a lot of stuff is shown - visual information counts. And conversely not everything in the lore is shown. In fact a lot of important things aren't shown - so it's worth reading the lore and using all the information together to get an informed opinion.

    The lore isn't perfect, it also has holes, things not fleshed out cos they haven't really been decided.
    Yes, but my point is like the Tidesages and Blood Knights aren’t proper shaman, so the balance druids in the converse way aren’t properly druidic. Not a single mention of druids ever using spells calling down stars with the arcane or moon or sun.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Yes, but my point is like the Tidesages and Blood Knights aren’t proper shaman, so the balance druids in the converse way aren’t properly druidic. Not a single mention of druids ever using spells calling down stars with the arcane or moon or sun.


    But their spell set is part of druidsm. Therefore it is druidic.


    Not a single mention of druids ever using spells calling down stars with the arcane or moon or sun
    And correction, they don’t call down stars with the arcane, they call down stars, but the energy magic is arcane type. It’s probably related to their arcane heritage, but it may not directly be using the arcane to call down a star.

    If you took a magnifying glass to concentrate the energy from the sun, is the magnifying glass sunlight energy? No! The spell used to capture and amplify the magic of the star doesn’t have to be arcane derived even though the resulting magic is of arcane energy and origin. You are just placing magic that exists in something you are very familiar with from your arcane civilization and not necessarily using it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    But their spell set is part of druidsm. Therefore it is druidic.



    And correction, they don’t call down stars with the arcane, they call down stars, but the energy magic is arcane type. It’s probably related to their arcane heritage, but it may not directly be using the arcane to call down a star.

    If you took a magnifying glass to concentrate the energy from the sun, is the magnifying glass sunlight energy? No! The spell used to capture and amplify the magic of the star doesn’t have to be arcane derived even though the resulting magic is of arcane energy and origin. You are just placing magic that exists in something you are very familiar with from your arcane civilization and not necessarily using it.
    Yes, and it probably means druids can, but that type of spell work is only mentioned and seen with Kaldorei priests and mages. There isn’t one mention of it on druids. And by the way, it is arcane magic from the stars. Blizzard hasn’t clarified anything yet. I am not the one assuming that any explanation but night elves using arcane is plausible here. Night elven druids banned the practice of arcane from the Well of eternity because using that source of energy, connected to Azeroth made her light up in the twisting nether.

    The hypothesis is Magic in the stars is in the moon and stars, it’s not on Azeroth, so a night elf using celestial arcane magic from the stars isn’t endangering the planet to demons unlike those who draw from the Well or on planet sources, and thus such doesn’t count. However there isn’t much you can do with that magic except damage things, you need to wield the arcane source from a well to do things like rebuild your society and restore your amenities – which they didn’t for 10k years.

    Anyway, nice analogy with the magnifying class.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Yes, and it probably means druids can, but that type of spell work is only mentioned and seen with Kaldorei priests and mages. There isn’t one mention of it on druids. And by the way, it is arcane magic from the stars. Blizzard hasn’t clarified anything yet. I am not the one assuming that any explanation but night elves using arcane is plausible here. Night elven druids banned the practice of arcane from the Well of eternity because using that source of energy, connected to Azeroth made her light up in the twisting nether.

    The hypothesis is Magic in the stars is in the moon and stars, it’s not on Azeroth, so a night elf using celestial arcane magic from the stars isn’t endangering the planet to demons unlike those who draw from the Well or on planet sources, and thus such doesn’t count. However there isn’t much you can do with that magic except damage things, you need to wield the arcane source from a well to do things like rebuild your society and restore your amenities – which they didn’t for 10k years.

    Anyway, nice analogy with the magnifying class.

    But it is shown on the druids, therefore it is there. Now I agree with you it’s not exclusively druidic and it does seem kaldorei racial based seen in Moonguard, Highborne, Priestesess of the Moon and Nightborne also, but never forget druid in Warcraft is a Kaldorei developed class. Therefore Kaldorei influence will be in it, those spells are definitely part of the druid. The night elf druid even if a lot of it comes from Kaldorei pre-sundering culture and the arcane. Night elves were heavy arcane practioners and are an arcane based race – this is their dark elf part, so blizzard is well within rights to take kaldorei cultural spell set and use it in a class that until recently was entirely kaldorei sourced, origined and trained.

    Now there is overlap, we see Priest/paladin overlap, warrior/rogue overlap, lock/mage, lock/priest, Dh/Lock, DH/Warrior, shaman/mage, shaman/druid, preist/shaman, druid/priest - and so don't be surprised if there is druid/mage overlap in the balance druid

    This is more organic, especially if Night elves are the source of mage, druid and demon hunters. We see priest/mage overlap in the priestesses of the moon (I even saw one casting arcane missiles - but we see them use arcane based spells as you noted)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    But it is shown on the druids, therefore it is there. Now I agree with you it’s not exclusively druidic and it does seem kaldorei racial based seen in Moonguard, Highborne, Priestesess of the Moon and Nightborne also, but never forget druid in Warcraft is a Kaldorei developed class. Therefore Kaldorei influence will be in it, those spells are definitely part of the druid. The night elf druid even if a lot of it comes from Kaldorei pre-sundering culture and the arcane. Night elves were heavy arcane practioners and are an arcane based race – this is their dark elf part, so blizzard is well within rights to take kaldorei cultural spell set and use it in a class that until recently was entirely kaldorei sourced, origined and trained.

    Now there is overlap, we see Priest/paladin overlap, warrior/rogue overlap, lock/mage, lock/priest, Dh/Lock, DH/Warrior, shaman/mage, shaman/druid, preist/shaman, druid/priest - and so don't be surprised if there is druid/mage overlap in the balance druid

    This is more organic, especially if Night elves are the source of mage, druid and demon hunters. We see priest/mage overlap in the priestesses of the moon (I even saw one casting arcane missiles - but we see them use arcane based spells as you noted)
    I’m not saying it’s not there, I’m saying that this is a case of game not entirely properly reflecting lore because blizzard doesn’t adapt the name of the spells or personalise the classes. Nor do they do different kits for races of certain classes when the lore demands a difference.
    Nighit eLf
    Night elf priests
    Night elf /Nightborne mages - should really have
    Night elf hunters
    These should have a different toolkit for regular priests, mages/ hunters

    Troll priests
    Troll druids
    Zandalari mages

    Kul’tiran Shaman – should have a unique Tidesage kit for the shaman class.

    Blood Elf Paladins – Blood Knights should have

    In addition to these, they can do unique things for certain races, like Blood elf mages could have Blood or Sun mages – with a unique fire kit. Draenei Priests should have a unique priest kit with their Naaru focus, and purple light. Draenei mages could also have a unique magitech version of the mage class.

    While most classes can fit in most races without changes, some do require it. Rogues really can have the same toolkit everywhere, how each race employs rouges, can be very different though, but that is entirely lore and the toolkikit can pretty much be the same. Same with warriors

  14. #14
    The Stars, Moon, and especially Elune are most certainly all part of druidism. Cenarius, the original teacher of druidism, is regarded in all the cultures he taught as the son of Elune and the Tauren revere him, Elune, and Malorne as part of their traditional culture. In fact the Highmountain are even especially blessed by Malorne himself.

    What is confusing you is the fact that as a nocturnal race these aspects are also part of Night Elf society more broadly, but in this regard I would recommend you look at the Tauren: yes they have a sun-focus due to being diurnal, but the worship of Mu'sha and Apa'ro were still present even before the reintroduction of formal druidism. Saying that these associations are exclusively Night Elf makes as much sense as arguing that Sun-walkers are really using Blood Elf magic because of how sun-based Quel'dorei society became.

    The arcane thing is more tricky, but with both Balance Druids and Priestesses the spell descriptions make it clear that the arcane energy they are using is associated with Elune and the Moon. Why would it be out of the question for a Tauren Druid to be able to draw the same power from their worship of Mu'sha? Yes, Elves have a natural affinity for arcane magic but that doesn't mean that all arcane magic is uniquely Elven.
    Last edited by Tharivor; 2020-03-27 at 12:48 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Yes, but my point is like the Tidesages and Blood Knights aren’t proper shaman, so the balance druids in the converse way aren’t properly druidic. Not a single mention of druids ever using spells calling down stars with the arcane or moon or sun.
    I think your problem is that you think because they do things differently, that they aren't "proper" x. Most classes are simplifications, with each race doing things slightly differently to fit with their needs.

    And of course Blood Knights aren't proper shamans. They're paladins.

    As for the arcane school, that's purely game mechanics and has nothing to do with lore. Until further notice, we have to assume they're still using Nature magic.

  16. #16
    I say that because despite being a part of the class, you never hear about this part of it in the books or lore. Lots of trees, healing, emerald dream, animals, even hurricanes and storm - but calling down stars, stellar and astral arcane magic, solar power, Elune creatures? This sounds more like a mage and in lore only shows up with night elf related arcane or priestly callings. It has shown up in the priest and highborne/Nightborne mages, and lore mentions this more in relation to kaldorei civilization.
    Tauren have their worship of An'she and Mu'sha. Sun is very important for them and so is the moon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    My guess it is more a racial feature, magic more particularly tied to the night elves. Just like the trolls seem to have a connection to blood magic more so than any, Forsaken to Death magic, sor t of thing. I suspect it shows up in the druid class, because unlike priest and mage who also have historical very strong ties with the ngiht elves, druid was the only one that was exclusive to them (until wow ofc where it was kept relatively exclusive with only 1 additional race allowing - so Priest and Mage already had other identities, despite the night elves creating the mage class, Krin'tor and high elf magic is already established by the time the night elves are introduced, as is the Light and the priest class. So Mage and Priest don't have signs of this, except in classic if you were a night elf priest you had starshards to reflect this, and in classic the Darnassian night elves hadn't returned to the arcane so there was no need to reflect this in the mage class. It's only avenue became the druid - especially since iti s quite unique to the magic toolkit of the Kaldorei set.
    Keep in mind that Thalassian druids were a thing in Warcraft 2. It means that night elves didn't need to be the only ones. Sylvanas used starfall in Warcraft 3.
    Also, moon based arcane magic for high elves is still canon. Ban'dinoriel was charged by three mooncrystals that later became verdant spheres.

    And tauren druids aren't a big stretch either. There were only three tauren units so you couldn't fully show tauren culture until WoW.

    1. Druid class has the abilities - but there is no mention in lore or the books like Stormrage or WotA of druids calling down the stars or moon. In WotA Cenarius casts a powerful ball of sunlight energy. Which wrath spell eventually becomes in Cataclysm onwards. Other than that, in the books the druids cast things like vines, hurricanes, cyclones, earthquakes, thorns, rally the living creatures and animals to fight with them, they wak e up the trees as welll
    This is one thing I dislike about WoW druid. His plant magic is not prominent enough. It appears only as CC and some healing spells. I would like to slap enemy with some vines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    The Stars, Moon, and especially Elune are most certainly all part of druidism. Cenarius, the original teacher of druidism, is regarded in all the cultures he taught as the son of Elune and the Tauren revere him, Elune, and Malorne as part of their traditional culture. In fact the Highmountain are even especially blessed by Malorne himself.

    What is confusing you is the fact that as a nocturnal race these aspects are also part of Night Elf society more broadly, but in this regard I would recommend you look at the Tauren: yes they have a sun-focus due to being diurnal, but the worship of Mu'sha and Apa'ro were still present even before the reintroduction of formal druidism. Saying that these associations are exclusively Night Elf makes as much sense as arguing that Sun-walkers are really using Blood Elf magic because of how sun-based Quel'dorei society became.

    The arcane thing is more tricky, but with both Balance Druids and Priestesses the spell descriptions make it clear that the arcane energy they are using is associated with Elune and the Moon. Why would it be out of the question for a Tauren Druid to be able to draw the same power from their worship of Mu'sha? Yes, Elves have a natural affinity for arcane magic but that doesn't mean that all arcane magic is uniquely Elven.
    You make a sound argument here, I think.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire guisadop's Avatar
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    IIRC most of the stars/sun fantasy came in and after Cata and only got stronger from there. Though starfall was added in WotLK.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think your problem is that you think because they do things differently, that they aren't "proper" x. Most classes are simplifications, with each race doing things slightly differently to fit with their needs.

    And of course Blood Knights aren't proper shamans. They're paladins.

    As for the arcane school, that's purely game mechanics and has nothing to do with lore. Until further notice, we have to assume they're still using Nature magic.
    Actually, that's exactly what i'm saying, you're saying it in fewer words. In game classes are simplifciations and generalisations - not giving the full actual picture, but a sufficient one.

    One really doesn't believe that an orc hunter can cast an arcane shot, that's from the elven toolset. Nor does one believe that the priest class abilities is all a night elf priestess of the moon can do, it clearly isn't, but the classes don't show this properly.

    Consequently, what they show in the druid also is not fully or necessarily all druid, because many of those balance druid abilities have similar versions we see cast by night elf/Nightborne mages, Priestesses of the Moon and generally the Kaldorei set.

    And you know what I meant i.e. Tidesages and Blood knights aren't regular shaman AND paladins

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by guisadop View Post
    IIRC most of the stars/sun fantasy came in and after Cata and only got stronger from there. Though starfall was added in WotLK.
    Starfall was the ultimate ability of the Priestess of the Moon hero unit all the way back in Warcraft 3. You also have the Moon Armor and Strength of the Moon of Night Elven units, Moonstones (which change day to night), and the Shadowmeld ability which is dependent on it being night to function. Also, the very name Kaldorei, introduced back in WC3, translates into "Children of the Stars."
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-27 at 02:50 PM.
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