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  1. #21
    Better late than never. At least the delay was only a week this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    And I'm also sure car manufacturers are equipped to fabricate under sterile conditions and are capable of properly sterilizing their product, as well as fine-tuning and testing thinks like the Aerosol-dispensers that modern ventilators come with? Their employees are trained in the proper procedures to fabricate sterile equipment? Because an employee touching some of the tubing can kill a patient. Just saying.

    I'm not saying car manufacturers aren't good engineers, or that their work is easy. But there is a lot more to producing medical gear than just putting it together.
    Wasnt all medical gear sterilized before delivery/first use, via radiation (Cobalt-60 and something else)? It kills everything. And I think it is reasonable to assume that they are going for mass production, which means that what they make will be on the simpler side.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Wasnt all medical gear sterilized before delivery/first use, via radiation (Cobalt-60 and something else)? It kills everything. And I think it is reasonable to assume that they are going for mass production, which means that what they make will be on the simpler side.
    Gammaradiation sterilization is used for simple and small medical tools and gear - scalpels, syringes, gloves and the like. It's impractical for bigger pieces of equipment. That wouldn't be a problem if you first irradiate exposed components, like tubes, straps, and so on, since the housing of the breathing apparatus, pumps etc don't have to be sterile since they have no contact with the patient, you'd still need to assemble the entire thing under sterile conditions, by people who know what they are doing. One careless touch and you could kill someone. A flake of skin, a piece of hair, that can be it. I know, this sounds dramatic, and the odds are minimal, but it's usually not a chance we're willing to take.

    I'm not saying I don't think GM or Ford aren't capable to do it, but there is a reason why large manufacturers either don't bother or create a substitute firm to produce medical gear, it's a pain in the ass with a lot of scrutiny. Not saying cars don't require quality work, it's just not as much of a hassle.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Gammaradiation sterilization is used for simple and small medical tools and gear - scalpels, syringes, gloves and the like. It's impractical for bigger pieces of equipment. That wouldn't be a problem if you first irradiate exposed components, like tubes, straps, and so on, since the housing of the breathing apparatus, pumps etc don't have to be sterile since they have no contact with the patient, you'd still need to assemble the entire thing under sterile conditions, by people who know what they are doing. One careless touch and you could kill someone. A flake of skin, a piece of hair, that can be it. I know, this sounds dramatic, and the odds are minimal, but it's usually not a chance we're willing to take.

    I'm not saying I don't think GM or Ford aren't capable to do it, but there is a reason why large manufacturers either don't bother or create a substitute firm to produce medical gear, it's a pain in the ass with a lot of scrutiny. Not saying cars don't require quality work, it's just not as much of a hassle.
    I just imagined the average car scale recall of ventilators. Thanks for the nightmare, brah

  5. #25
    He gave them a chance, they appeared to step up but the price was not working out so he used the trump card (pun intended) and now they have 2. will take some time but this should help a lot.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  6. #26
    The US is all "nationalization is terrible" until it isn't.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Are you high? they refused the test from the WHO, they blocked state and local government from using private labs to get testing going, they set standards for performing the tests very high because Trump didn't like the numbers going higher. It's been weeks since they promised a million tests will be performed in 7 days, that's some pretty high level revisionism you are engaging in.
    "They" is the FDA, following their own rules that have been in place for God knows how long, but longer than January 2017. Absolutely none of the regulatory hurdles that article described were even put in place by this administration, let alone at the personal direction of the President, mid-emergency. It's actually fucking precious you think that the bureaucracy - slow and reluctant to obey even mundane, routine lawful executive action - would have been cheerily complying with such fictional nonsense if it had been happening. Talk about paranoid.

    All the response failures? Failures to lift/wave/void/exempt/suspend... which is to say most of the problems were from us having too many rules in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The US is all "nationalization is terrible" until it isn't.
    It literally never isn't.

  8. #28
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    The only question I have is from where they will get microprocessors for the control of the device, those most likely are purpose-made and cant be replaced at will, even with software provided to the carmakers.
    If it was purpose made, it wouldn't really be a microprocessor, but rather than ASIC.

    A microprocessor by definition is general purpose, assuming it possesses sufficient RAM, ROM, and processing capacity.

    A given design may have additional special purpose hardware (DAC, ADC, coprocessors like DSPs, etc.) integrated into it, but in principle, those things can be replaced by external packages interfacing with the main processor.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    "They" is the FDA, following their own rules that have been in place for God knows how long, but longer than January 2017. Absolutely none of the regulatory hurdles that article described were even put in place by this administration, let alone at the personal direction of the President, mid-emergency. It's actually fucking precious you think that the bureaucracy - slow and reluctant to obey even mundane, routine lawful executive action - would have been cheerily complying with such fictional nonsense if it had been happening. Talk about paranoid.

    All the response failures? Failures to lift/wave/void/exempt/suspend... which is to say most of the problems were from us having too many rules in the first place.
    No man there were no magical rules to save his incompetence no regulatory hurdles, the Trump administration set the rules for the testing just like they changed it when they got called out on it. There was no bureaucracy that made them say no to the WHO or defund them, no beauracry that made Trump disband the pandemic response team. There were no rules in the book that made most of the government agencies run with "acting" directors people like the head of DHS who is so unqualified that he doesn't know basic google facts about the flu or COVID-19.

    We are rationing tests even today so stop with the right wing BS those are facts we are living with right now. If you want to bury your head in the sand or in this case up Trump's ass it's your choice.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post

    Just remember, every useful thing that any level of government - local, state, or federal - has done in the course of meeting this crisis has been an act of waiving, suspending, or removing some rule or regulation that left in place would make responding harder. That should be a lesson, but won't be.
    Aaaaaaaand we found the Libertarian.

    I'll give this 1 shot. I doubt it will work, but here goes nothing.

    Those rules, systems and regulations are there to increase safety and reduce costs under normal operations.

    Had the response not been botched literally months ago, much fewer of those rules would need to waived etc.

    But even assuming that the administration didn't botch things, those rules and regulations still probably have their place outside emergencies.

    The simplest analogy I can think of is this.

    In case of emergency when you are driving someone to a hospital traffic rules and regulations are temporarily waived. You can skip red lights, speed etc. You are doing this accepting an increased temporary risk to deal with an emergency. That doesn't suddenly fucking mean that traffic rules are bad. Under normal conditions they reduce risk and save lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    The only question I have is from where they will get microprocessors for the control of the device, those most likely are purpose-made and cant be replaced at will, even with software provided to the carmakers.
    You literally can use just off the shelf commercial hardware. It might not necessarily be as compact and lean looking as those purpose built but you can literally jerry-rig commercial laptops to probably be able to run dozens of ventilators simultaneously.

    Again it might not be the prettiest thing you have ever seen, but considering the computing power of your average mid range office laptop it would be more than enough to do the trick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  11. #31
    I have yet to hear of a newly made ventilator design that wouldn't straight up kill someone. These companies don't make ventilators, they have no idea how they work, let-alone how to build one. Could they figure it out and make their own unique design with their own programming that adheres to all necessary standards? Sure. But it'll take months (if not years) before they can get to that point. This isn't like retooling a plant that makes microwaves into one that makes refrigerators, ventilators are more about sensors than anything, and yet people are talking about tubing? (which isn't part of the actual ventilator unit at all)

    I feel like expanding existing ventilator manufacturers would be a far better way to go than whatever this is. I could build a better ventilator out of a Bi-PAP than anything being suggested right now.

  12. #32
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by For_The_Horde View Post
    I have yet to hear of a newly made ventilator design that wouldn't straight up kill someone. These companies don't make ventilators, they have no idea how they work, let-alone how to build one. Could they figure it out and make their own unique design with their own programming that adheres to all necessary standards? Sure. But it'll take months (if not years) before they can get to that point. This isn't like retooling a plant that makes microwaves into one that makes refrigerators, ventilators are more about sensors than anything, and yet people are talking about tubing? (which isn't part of the actual ventilator unit at all)

    I feel like expanding existing ventilator manufacturers would be a far better way to go than whatever this is. I could build a better ventilator out of a Bi-PAP than anything being suggested right now.
    Why not just junk the "programming" and "sensors"? We've had ventilators since computers were built with tubes. I'm reasonably sure that producing something like a Bird respirator from the 50s is well within the capabilities of a car factory and they could build them by the thousand.

    It won't be as good as a modern microprocessor unit, but it will be infinitely better than no ventilator, which is the only other option until your proposed expansion can kick in months from now and produce a sufficient supply of modern units.
    Last edited by Masark; 2020-03-28 at 06:29 AM.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    He gave them a chance, they appeared to step up but the price was not working out so he used the trump card (pun intended) and now they have 2. will take some time but this should help a lot.
    Yes, Trump went full Venezuela on them.

    The national socialists would be proud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, Trump went full Venezuela on them.

    The national socialists would be proud.
    not even.. defenses production act != socialism its an emergency measure that goes away after the emergency. Somehow I doubt the gov't keeps control of GM lol
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Why not just junk the "programming" and "sensors"? We've had ventilators since computers were built with tubes. I'm reasonably sure that producing something like a Bird respirator from the 50s is well within the capabilities of a car factory and they could build them by the thousand.

    It won't be as good as a modern microprocessor unit, but it will be infinitely better than no ventilator, which is the only other option until your proposed expansion can kick in months from now and produce a sufficient supply of modern units.
    Bird ventilators are only really used for short bursts of therapy (these days), and even that is rare and iffy, the thing is basically a mechanical bellows. Again a Bi-PAP machine would make a better ventilator, since you can at least set pressure pressure maximums and max/min volume intake. Even that wouldn't be ideal however because you need to watch pressure waveforms (on actual modern ventilators) closely while ventilating a SARS patient, or you'll just wind up killing them.

  16. #36

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    not even.. defenses production act != socialism its an emergency measure that goes away after the emergency. Somehow I doubt the gov't keeps control of GM lol
    He nationalized an industry...

    Enjoy that socialism!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  18. #38
    Which is fucking pointless, you need more agile corps:

    . Dyson which is already producing their which took 10 days to specs and get approved;

    . Smaller shops in Canada already produced 10k+;

    . I saw Open Sources ones already approved by medicals boards;

    . China shops is already producing some but will distribute them worldwide;

    What GM was waiting for is the cash incentive to do so...

    TLDR: Your govt of white nationalist morons is a good month late.

    PS: Unlike Michigan, did your state kissed trump ass in order to insure they'll get support from the feds?


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    He nationalized an industry...

    Enjoy that socialism!!!
    You know I can't help but notice a few weeks ago SOCIALISM was evil but now socialism for wall street, socialism for big business, socialism for the rich and the right is suddenly quiet. I mean we are handing out trillion dollars like it's going out of style when just a few weeks` ago it was HOW YOU GONNNA PAY FOR IT SOCIALISM!!

  20. #40
    well yes he didn't want 2 cause companies where doing it voluntarily but then came back with costs too high per part, and moving slower than needed it seems.. so this gives them push and I think some money to do it faster. not socialism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    He nationalized an industry...

    Enjoy that socialism!!!
    guess what we did during WWII as well we have been socialist ever since .. oh wait /eye roll
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

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