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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Nekrotix's Avatar
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    Sylvanas Character Assassination

    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    Isn't it fitting WoW really took a nosedive after 'the Cataclysm'?

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    They needed a villain because they ran out of them, she fit the bill. They ruined her character way back during the fanfic novel after Wrath. She has been crap ever since, same thing they did to Kael'thas.
    "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. "
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    General Jack D. Ripper.


  3. #3
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    I've always thought of her as a villain personally.
    FORTNITE
    Fite me! ^..^

  4. #4
    Sylvanas is Barbie Hitler
    @thwart <- don't click this and learn his shame
    Newsflash: 2016 Thwart would hate 2019 Thwart! Definitely don't click this either!

    We see you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am absolutely a jerk, a complete cunt. But I encourage you to rise above.

  5. #5
    Undead Sylvanas has always been a villain, albeit a manageable one

    https://youtu.be/G9osOdem9x8?t=1098

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people


    BFA did not change Sylvanas.

    Protect her people? No. Protect her control over her people? Yes.

    We've wanted to think differently for a long time, and brushed these little incidents under the rug, but the point of her Warbringers short is that she's been like this since the moment she was raised as a banshee.

    "The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her Val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul." -Legion character summary

    We finally found out. They were not. From what I've heard of Shadowlands, she's gone, and she took the val'kyr with her.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-03-28 at 02:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    She is a villain she been killing civilians since wrath, experimenting on the living wiping out whole populations with blight. She only ever feign benevolence to take attention away from the horrid shit she did when her allies wasn't looking. I admit the whole thing about her backstabbing the forsaken was done in a asinine way but she always been a villain to anything that breathe air. Even the Alliance stop giving a shit about what she did as long as she keep that shit from crossing over Thoradin's wall(even when she did that, it was only ever really the dwarves or some stromgarde leftovers shaking their fist at her). She didn't have to die, nobody wanted her ass dead until she triggered Graymane and even after that Varian didn't even give a damn, everything she did was because she couldn't reneged on the deal she made with the Jailer because of consequences only she knew about. She is a villain for not telling her allies about her ordeal so they could've prevented wholesell genocide and afterlife shenanigans.

  8. #8
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Being a victim and not wanting to die doesn’t exclude you from also being a villain. She’s been evil since she was raised the only thing that has changed is who she sided with for her evil goals and what those goals are.

  9. #9
    When I rolled a forsaken death knight, deliberately trying to make the edgiest character possible in order to come up with somebody who I could justify RPing a Sylvanas loyalist for, I still caved by the end. To quote Trollbane, of the guys I dug up for the new four horsemen:
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  10. #10
    She’s always been bad. She was just “in the shadows” bad. Shining the light directly on her is what ruined the fun and left her just “bad”.

  11. #11
    Bitch has always been evil and a villain.
    No ideology has been more murderous or detrimental to human dignity than Communism
    Quote Originally Posted by kidkilla View Post
    The Ottomans brought civilization to Greece.
    Oh my...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    She’s always been bad. She was just “in the shadows” bad. Shining the light directly on her is what ruined the fun and left her just “bad”.
    This, pretty much.

    Since your characters can only be as smart as the people writing them, Warcraft has often been a projective test of writing interest and potential, since their writers are pretty dumb and pulpy. Less is usually more when you can project a lot onto the tropes a character is built around. Sylvanas was more compelling when she was being dastardly in the background with some sympathetic elements to her situation, and the whole "fights with monsters" sword dangling over her.

    Once you strip that away and she shows her cards, you eventually end up seeing the zipper on the scary monster suit. Even with Shadowlands' inevitable death-conspiracy plot, Sylvanas has had the fun of her presence ruined by going full dickhead because now it puts the writing flaws around her more up to scrutiny. I'd argue this was a slow curve downward starting with the treatment of Koltira at WPL onward. After that, any ambiguity was out the window.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-03-28 at 02:35 AM.

  13. #13
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.
    Yes she is, she has been torturing prisoners, men, women, children, soldier, and innocent since vanilla.
    she has also gone out of her way to get you the player to murder civilians, and then raise them into servitude (Fenris isle)
    Cataclysm she was told
    1. not to raise people (She did, to which she compared herself to the lich king)
    2. not to use the plague (Which she did)
    3. not to use the full powered plague (She was given a weaker version to only use for defense, and she ignored both parts of the order)
    she tortured one of her own death knights for "acting neutral" which she did not like.
    you say this is included in legion when she was "good", but she ditched her people to go make herself immortal.

    These are all over a decade ago, this is not "Her suddenly being made a villian" she has always been a villain.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Yes she is, she has been torturing prisoners, men, women, children, soldier, and innocent since vanilla.
    she has also gone out of her way to get you the player to murder civilians, and then raise them into servitude (Fenris isle)
    Cataclysm she was told
    1. not to raise people (She did, to which she compared herself to the lich king)
    2. not to use the plague (Which she did)
    3. not to use the full powered plague (She was given a weaker version to only use for defense, and she ignored both parts of the order)
    she tortured one of her own death knights for "acting neutral" which she did not like.
    you say this is included in legion when she was "good", but she ditched her people to go make herself immortal.
    1) Was ordered not to use it because Garrosh wanted Forsaken wiped out
    2) Order was also because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out
    3) Order also given because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out.

    So why should Sylvanas or anyone say "Yes sir please sir." to that?

    With Koltira Varian would have done the same if Redridge was attacked by horde and Thassarian went "Ok let's not fight now even though we're seconds from Victory."

    Her ditching her people was under the point she always putting you in charge of the main mission while she had her own one in the same place. If Gen kept his boner in check for 5 minutes nothing in BFA would have happend.

  15. #15
    You can argue that Sylvanas is morally grey because her whole goal is to not die, but essentially that's more or less part of every villain's goal; so that by itself is incredibly shallow.

    She's obviously being "set up" (well, no, she's not being set up this way at all but the writers are just going to FORCE it haphazardly) to be like Illidan or something. She's somehow going to save us all from a fate no one but her saw coming. She's still been especially villainous in almost everything she's ever done, with very little room to justify her as anything else.
    Last edited by therealstegblob; 2020-03-28 at 04:41 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    Imagine believing Sylvanas had a character.
    Even in Vanilla you turned in all quests to Varimathras.

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    1) Was ordered not to use it because Garrosh wanted Forsaken wiped out
    2) Order was also because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out
    3) Order also given because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out.

    So why should Sylvanas or anyone say "Yes sir please sir." to that?

    With Koltira Varian would have done the same if Redridge was attacked by horde and Thassarian went "Ok let's not fight now even though we're seconds from Victory."

    Her ditching her people was under the point she always putting you in charge of the main mission while she had her own one in the same place. If Gen kept his boner in check for 5 minutes nothing in BFA would have happend.
    Garrosh didn't want the forsaken wiped out and if Gilneas could be taken then blight and plague would've fucked up all the resources gained from the land that could've been used by the whole as a whole. Also Koltira and Varian wouldn't blow up a peace of their kingdom to win a war or battle, that is not even in their moral compass in any form. Gen anger had nothing to do with that bitch blighting her territory she was going to do that anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    You can argue that Sylvanas is morally grey because her whole goal is to not die, but essentially that's more or less part of every villain's goal; so that by itself is incredibly shallow.

    She's obviously being "set up" (well, no, she's not being set up that way at all but the writers are just going to FORCE it haphazardly) to be like Illidan or something. She's somehow going to save us all for a fate no one but her saw coming. She's still been especially villainous in almost everything she's ever done, with very little room to justify her as anything else.
    As of now she is a villian but we all know that "Azeroth is free!" is coming and it's gonna suck.

  18. #18
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    She has been a villain for a long time, look you like her and that is up to you but open your eyes and stop trying to pretend she was something that she wasn't. She has been dark and villainous in WoW for a long time.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    1) Was ordered not to use it because Garrosh wanted Forsaken wiped out
    2) Order was also because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out
    3) Order also given because Garrosh wanted forsaken wiped out.

    So why should Sylvanas or anyone say "Yes sir please sir." to that?

    With Koltira Varian would have done the same if Redridge was attacked by horde and Thassarian went "Ok let's not fight now even though we're seconds from Victory."

    Her ditching her people was under the point she always putting you in charge of the main mission while she had her own one in the same place. If Gen kept his boner in check for 5 minutes nothing in BFA would have happend.
    1) is evil, and she even literally compares herself to the lich king. The forsaken was supposed to be a home for those raised by the lich king.
    If you have a home for the homeless you are good
    but if you burn peoples homes, then let them stay at your homeless shelter, you are evil.
    the forsaken was a home for the homeless, but instead she started making more forsaken
    2) was ordered not to use it cause it was evil, and you seem to forget of a thing called the wrathgate.
    3) was ordered not to use it cause it was evil, and you seem to forget of a thing called the wrathgate.


    No, varian would not have tortured him though
    she was still the leader, and she ditches the horde, to go try to enslave an ally, and become immortal.

  20. #20
    oh here we go again...

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