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  1. #181
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    I used to like Sylvanas back when she didn't give a shit about the horde and just wanted for her and her people to not die out, but they went full bitch with her after the lich king died. It's sad how fucked just about every character is now.

  2. #182
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I mean, was it really such a huge deal? He only damaged a shithole like Northrend where nobody lived. I think we can excuse Illidan in this case.
    Restless Scourge
    Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
    Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
    Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
    Restless Scourge
    Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
    Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
    Restless Scourge
    Last edited by Ardenaso; 2020-03-30 at 07:41 AM.
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  3. #183
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Restless Scourge
    Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
    Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
    Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
    Restless Scourge
    Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
    Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
    Restless Scourge
    I mean, does anyone really care about those things? The only real thing of relative value that could've been lost were the tuskarr.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-30 at 07:49 AM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Yes, they did all they could to remove her. They have agenda of removing any morally questionable member of the Horde, so there is steady stream of new raid bosses and Alliance can feel endless satisfaction.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes. Sylvanas is quite too thin. Ashvane has some hidden matronal beauty.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Daily reminder that World War II ended with Stalin and "Europe is free!".
    “Endless satisfaction” of the Alliance? I dont think you really ever played Alliance. We dont get any satisfaction.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    destroying the Lich King without safety nets and also instigating a global flooding = destroying the world
    I doubt it would come to that disaster.

    Regardless, his goal was not to destroy or conquer Azeroth.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    She needs to apologise for... defending her sacred forests from deforestation caused by fel aliens?

    Yeah see that's why I have many Horde fanboys blocked. This stuff makes you lose brain cells.
    People keep forgetting that Orcs are literal alien invaders that reek of demon blood.

  7. #187
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    People keep forgetting that Orcs are literal alien invaders that reek of demon blood.
    It was Velen's fault, he is the real evil, he forced the orcs to drink the blood.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.
    Nope, no one is making me think anything. I judge her by her deeds and her internal monolouge. No matter how much caps you put down to make yourself believe it, everything Sylvanas has done since she was freed from Arthas control was for her own selfish being: She murdered, raised, lied, genocided, used innocents in human trials of her new blight... These are the actions of a villain. You have to be completely blind to look at any of her actions and deem them anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She has Free Will ever since she got freed from Arthas control. Everything she did after that is completely and utterly her fault. There are several Undead (without the bonus of a fully restored body) that chose to help people in the world, like Alonsus Faol, the Death Knight player character and the Ebon Blade. Saying that Sylvanas had to be evil because she is undead is nonesense, she had the choice to do something positive with her unlife, but she CHOSE not to.

    This is not a thing of BFA, she has just been more guarded about her crimes before, now as Warchief she could not hide behind the Horde anymore. She has enganged in brutal murder and genocide long before BFA came around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?
    There is the snag. Sylvanas got a wiff of what awaits her after her death and you make it sound like her only option is to be a cold-hearted monster only focussed on her own survival, that however is untrue.
    There was two ways she could have gone. The first and easier one is to cling to unlife and do whatever it takes to stay alife no matter who she has to murder for it. The other much more painful way would have been REDEMPTION. She could have chosen to change her life and do good with her considerable powers and thus EARN her way into a better afterlife.
    She has literally been given a second chance when she jumped from Icecrown. She was shown where her path would lead after the crimes she commited and then she was given the option of changing it. She chose not to. In fact, she chose to become even worse. She deserves everything coming to her after that point.
    It's like in the "Christmas Carol" if Scrouge, after being shown the future, said "Yeah, nah, I stay as I am. Maybe I should burn down an orphanage."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.
    You really need to stop making your own headcannon. Read what has been written about her, long before BFA. Read "Edge of Night", read "War Crimes". Sylvanas does not give a crap about the Forsaken other then as her personal shield against death.
    She was a victim in the past, but when the victim starts genociding other races with biochemical weapons the victim card no longer works. She has free will. No body is controlling her, she is thus responsible for her own actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.
    Did you forget how she blighted Gilneas and thus murdered a good part of it population while forcing the rest to accept the worgen curse as their only way out?
    Did you forget how she then proceeded to assassinate Greymane only to murder his son instead (a fact she has been happily gloating over for years now). Did you forget how she was going to use her own sister to assassinate Garrosh, keeping herself blameless in the process and then planned to murder Vareesa and her children too damn them to a life in undeath as well?
    Open your eyes. She has always been a villian, the entire time. Even when she was still an elf she cared very little for the other elves under her command.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    I personally think that people who think her character changed in BFA have been willfully blind to how she was before. No protrayal, either inside or outside the game ever reflects this Hero Sylvanas that you claim exists. The only people that like her are the Forsaken, who simply had no other place to go and in many cases are of as rotten a character as Sylavans herself (the Royal Apothecaries are litterally evil scientists playing with deadly plagues and testing them on captured humans for fun).

    So yeah, explain to me how all the monstrous crimes she comitted long before BFA do not make her a villain.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2020-03-30 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #189
    Sylvanas = Orgrim Doomhammer.
    One is praised the other one is hated. Why? Racism?

  10. #190
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Sylvanas = Orgrim Doomhammer.
    One is praised the other one is hated. Why? Racism?
    Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.

    The Horde is made up of psycopaths, so Sylvanas had a ton of support before she squandered it because Saurfang hit her in the eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Open your eyes. She has always been a villian, the entire time. Even when she was still an elf she cared very little for the other elves under her command.
    Yep. She was always described as vainglorious and arrogant and considered her comrades nothing more than arrows in the quiver, expendable meatshield to throw at the enemy. She would've probably never gotten that position if Alleria was still on Azeroth.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-30 at 09:57 AM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.

    The Horde is made up of psycopaths, so Sylvanas had a ton of support before she squandered it because Saurfang hit her in the eye.
    hmmm... Did you actually check? I mean Orgrim wiped out allied orcs clans and killed his warchief to become warchief himself then destroyed Stormwind and after that huge massacre, used raped mind enslaved red dragons and made necromancers from defiled alliance corpses filled with dead orcs souls to target Lordaeron and everything that was pretty much linked with the city he had just destroyed, "just in case they would attack back".

    I mean, that's pretty much a hardcore version of Sylvanas we have here.
    And his name was used for the glorious capital of the peacefull new horde.

  12. #192
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    hmmm... Did you actually check? I mean Orgrim wiped out allied orcs clans and killed his warchief to become warchief himself then destroyed Stormwind and after that huge massacre, used raped mind enslaved red dragons and made necromancers from defiled alliance corpses filled with dead orcs souls to target Lordaeron and everything that was pretty much linked with the city he had just destroyed, "just in case they would attack back".

    I mean, that's pretty much a hardcore version of Sylvanas we have here.
    And his name was used for the glorious capital of the peacefull new horde.
    Yep, I checked, and he never nuked several cities, including one kingdom, using chemical weapons, never used Scourge creatures to mass-ressurect people, never made deals with deities of death, never tried to enslave an entire race of angelic beings, never tried to commit literal mundicide by waging war on life and hope, and never dumped the Horde when they were no longer useful.

    Also lol who cares if he killed Blackhand and put the Shadow Council in their place. Exactly, literally nobody, because they were monsters.

    But yes, the fact that they adopted his name when claiming to be a "New" Horde proves that many Hordies are still psycopaths. Perhaps that's why they were so quick to follow Sylvanas when she committed genocide, and only abandoned her once she revealed she never gave a shit about the Horde.

    You've still got to tell me how Doomhammer is an "hardcore version of Sylvanas" though.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-30 at 12:03 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yep, I checked, and he never nuked several cities, including one kingdom, using chemical weapons, never used Scourge creatures to mass-ressurect people, never made deals with deities of death, never tried to enslave an entire race of angelic beings, never tried to commit literal mundicide by waging war on life and hope, and never dumped the Horde when they were no longer useful.

    But yes, the fact that they adopted his name when claiming to be a "New" Horde proves that many Hordelets are still psycopaths. Perhaps that's why they were so quick to follow Sylvanas when she committed genocide, and only abandoned her once she revealed she never gave a shit about the Horde.

    You've still got to tell me how Doomhammer is an "hardcore version of Sylvanas" though.
    So he wiped out Stormwind. The capital of course, but also pretty much every town around.
    Wiped out pretty much every dwarf /gnome lands, except their capital, because he couldn't. Did also that with the elves. Was on a close call for doing the same with Lordaeron before he was betrayed.

    So yeah, he did way more damages than Sylvanas.

    He used necromancers.
    So yeah Sylvanas like.

    He defiled the bodies of alliance soldiers with dead orc demonist souls he had killed himself.
    Sylvanas didn't even thought about something like that.

    He enslaved red dragons (they are nicer than your allready mind enlsaved "angels" by a LichKing bis)
    So, evil version of Sylvanas.

    He forced them to have a progeniture.
    Sylvanas is not even close.

    He mind controled them.
    Sylvanas tried to do that on one long dead enemy corpse. So yeah, evil version of Sylvanas.

    He made a pact with Guldan to use his most atrocious ideas against his enemies to destroy them.
    Sylvanas made a pact with a death entity we don't know anything about. She killed a shit tone of people for this pact yeah. But she also planed the destruction of the last and most corruptive old god on azeroth.
    Ogrim just tried to kill all his enemies. But heh, let's just make them even on that one.

    Ogrim is just the very evil version of Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-03-30 at 12:46 PM.

  14. #194
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    So he wiped out Stormwind. The capital of course, but also pretty much every town around.
    Wiped out pretty much every dwarf lands, except their capital, because he couldn't. Was on a close call for doing the same with Lordaeron before he was betrayed.
    He would have done the same with elves.
    So yeah Sylvanas like.

    He used necromancers.
    So yeah Sylvanas like.

    He defiled the bodies of alliance soldiers with orc souls.
    Sylvanas didn't even thought about that.

    He enslaved red dragons (they are nicer than your allready mind enlsaved "angels" by a LichKing bis)
    So, evil version of Sylvanas.

    He forced them to have a progeniture.
    Sylvanas is not even close.

    He mind controled them.
    Sylvanas tried to do that on one long dead enemy corpse. So yeah, evil version of Sylvanas.

    He made a pact with Guldan to use his most atrocious ideas against his enemies to destroy them.
    Sylvanas made a pact with a death entity we don't know anything about. She killed a shit tone of people for this pact yeah. But she also planed the destruction of the last and most corruptive old god on azeroth.
    Ogrim just tried to kill all his enemies.

    Ogrim is just the very evil version of Sylvanas.
    Well not really, since he doesnt want to kill everyone, doesnt hate hope and life, and wasnt using the Horde as a mere tool. There's a reason why Blizzard said Sylvanas was the successor of Blackhand's evil legacy, not Doomhammer's.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Well not really, since he doesnt want to kill everyone, doesnt hate hope and life, and wasnt using the Horde as a mere tool. There's a reason why Blizzard said Sylvanas was the successor of Blackhand's evil legacy, not Doomhammer's.
    Why should an undead love life? No particular reason to. Still she allways try to find a way to minimise her own side casualties even among the livings. That's not the "muh honor" way of course. That's better.
    Even her first plan before Saurfang fucked it up was to break them, not to anihilate them.
    Ogrim was pretty much allways about annihilating. You know... VICTORY OR DEATH

    She tried to destroy hope in enemies ranks. That's the case in every war. If they have hope, they still fight, if not, they surrender. That's not at all a Sylvanas specific. And I'm pretty convinced that the horde was full of hope after a victory like that. It works both way.

    The reason why Sylvanas was said by Blizzard as the successor of Blackhand and not Doomhammer, is that because Blizzard writers are retarded. Nothing new. If we look at the facts Blackhand was a pretty nice guy compared to Orgrim. Blackhand did nothing remotely close to all the atrocities Orgrim did (Maybe because he didn't have time? Still).Wich are basically way worst versions of what Sylvanas did. But they can't say that. Because "Ogrim is such a good guy and a hero of the horde!"
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-03-30 at 01:15 PM.

  16. #196
    She's been evil all the time, and Thrall/Vol'jin ignored it for the sake of avoiding a civil war. I don't care what the books say (and I don't know), because in the game, she is responsible for genocide, torture, illegal weapons, horrible experiments and disregard for the value of life, and that's long before she was corrupted or whatever is going on now.
    Mother pus bucket!

  17. #197
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Why should an undead love life? No particular reason to. Still she allways try to find a way to minimise her own side casualties even among the livings. That's not the "muh honor" way of course. That's better.
    Even her first plan before Saurfang fucked it up was to break them, not to anihilate them.
    Ogrim was pretty much allways about annihilating.

    She tried to destroy hope in enemies ranks. That's the case in every war. If they have hope, they still fight, if not, they surrender. That's not at all a Sylvanas specific. And I'm pretty convinced that the horde was full of hope after a victory like that. It works both way.

    The reason why Sylvanas was said by Blizzard as the successor of Blackhand and not Doomhammer, is that because Blizzard writers are retarded. Nothing new. If we look at the facts Blackhand was a pretty nice guy compared to Orgrim. Blackhand did nothing remotely close to all the atrocities Orgrim did. Wich are basically way worst versions of what Sylvanas did. But they can't say that. Because "Ogrim is such a good guy and a hero of the horde!"
    Nope, she didn't merely want to break them, she wanted to kill all of them. She started the Fourth War only to empower herself and the Jailer with the ensuing bloodshed, and laments how the war ended prematurely. She even hoped that N'Zoth could indirectly serve Death by causing a carnage.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nope, she didn't merely want to break them, she wanted to kill all of them. She started the Fourth War only to empower herself and the Jailer with the ensuing bloodshed, and laments how the war ended prematurely. She even hoped that N'Zoth could indirectly serve Death by causing a carnage.
    Nope the first plan was to break the alliance. Not to kill them all. Even derek larteron was a tool to make a huge blow while sparing horde soldiers (something that could of course displease Baine)
    Also she gave the only weapon able to kill that oldgod to Azshara. So she could kill him once freed. That old god who was responsible for allready countless deaths during his imprisonment.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-03-30 at 01:50 PM.

  19. #199
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I mean, does anyone really care about those things? The only real thing of relative value that could've been lost were the tuskarr.
    I would care about the excited Scourge especially at the time Dalaran wasn't even reclaimed yet

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    I doubt it would come to that disaster.

    Regardless, his goal was not to destroy or conquer Azeroth.
    Restless Scourge
    Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
    Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
    Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
    Restless Scourge
    Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
    Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
    Restless Scourge

    I'm sure those will lead to the destruction of Azeroth

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.
    Orgrimm tossed the Alteraci aside and refused to uphold his end of the bargain with them
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    <snip>
    She is obviously a villain, always has been. The only reason you don't think so is because you are thinking with your gonads.

    Dude, computer females aren't real. And they will never give you the love and attention you so clearly crave. It's a shame we're all confined indoors, as I would advise you some fresh air.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-30 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

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