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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You said "people now the think she's always been bad due to BfA writing and every example they pulled to prove she's bad comes from BfA". That is not true at all. She's been a controversial character since Classic and many, myself included, proved how she was already doing terrible things long before BfA.
    No she has always been a grey area character, yea you can pull bad things she has done but also you could pull good things as well and the things she has done has always had a point to them that was never about giving her more power. So yea thanks for proving my point.

  2. #242
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    No she has always been a grey area character, yea you can pull bad things she has done but also you could pull good things as well and the things she has done has always had a point to them that was never about giving her more power. So yea thanks for proving my point.
    She literally went to hell. So no, she has not "always been a grey character". Do you even know the character you're defending? She's always sought more power, either to get revenge or to avoid the Hell she deserves.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  3. #243
    I'm sorry, but the moment she ordered the burning of Teldrassil and a countless amount of civilian people - Including Children, elderly, parents, herbalists, veterans and whatever you can imagine - She became a full fledged villain. You can't just kill the majority of an entire civilization and get the "For the greater good" treatment. Stop trying, she's evil, whatever her "Destination" may be, the path is carved in pure evil villainy.

  4. #244
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Restless Scourge
    Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
    Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
    Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
    Restless Scourge
    Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
    Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
    Restless Scourge
    i love how you make up stuff with this
    "Restless scourge" you mean dead scourge
    "Extinction of XYZ" drakkari were evil so.... vrykul also evil, the rest woulda been wiped out but...
    "Global flooding" not exactly proven true
    "Unleash yog and the faceless ones" he was unleashed anyways... so literally doesent matter
    "Restless scourge" oh look, trying to make a point by repeating it, doesent make it true.
    "Possible damage" yeah you are making that up
    "possible madness of malf" again making stuff up
    and oh look you repeat it again


    no, ending the lich king woulda been so much better.

  5. #245
    Regardless of how you feel about the character, She was Assassinated. Her story had more depth and was much more than just bad guy doing bad things for generic reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    She literally went to hell. So no, she has not "always been a grey character". Do you even know the character you're defending? She's always sought more power, either to get revenge or to avoid the Hell she deserves.
    Rofl... okay. The writers called her Morally Grey, you say she never has been but i guess your opinion matters more because i guess reasons.
    Last edited by Malix Farwin; 2020-03-31 at 08:21 PM.

  6. #246
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    While she definitely leaned towards the more questionable side (i mean shes a zombie what do people expect? she plant trees and stop global warming?), she wasnt shown to be actively evil until more recently. Meaning parts of Cata, then legion and finally now.

    The problem is there have been times when shes shown to have a good or ok side, like regretting not saving Varian on the broken shore. But then at the same time done what she did in BfA.

    So either:
    - the devs screwed up huge which left players associating with pre BfA sylvanas and scratching their heads at post BfA sylvanas.
    OR
    - they didnt screw up and people just got a self fulfiling prophecy regarding sylvanas and either 1. Accepted it or 2. Hated it.

    the aftermath? 3 threads a day on sylvanas' motivations. 2 threads a week of if shes justified. 1 thread a week claiming shes not evil. But thats been finalized. She IS evil. We can claim multiple issues like "writers suck!" "retcon!" etc etc etc. Sure. But in the end thats that. She is evil, the story sucking doesnt change that anymore than changing Garrosh's fate. Yea we can complain "another horde warchief axed!" but thats beside the point.

    As per the threads main title? Character Assassination. Id say anyone who says her character wasnt assassinated is being a bit biased and supporting the story devs who think that they did a good job with BfAs story.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    I'm sorry, but the moment she ordered the burning of Teldrassil and a countless amount of civilian people - Including Children, elderly, parents, herbalists, veterans and whatever you can imagine - She became a full fledged villain. You can't just kill the majority of an entire civilization and get the "For the greater good" treatment. Stop trying, she's evil, whatever her "Destination" may be, the path is carved in pure evil villainy.
    When did that take place? Exactly.

  8. #248
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the character, She was Assassinated. Her story had more depth and was much more than just bad guy doing bad things for generic reasons.
    What depth? Her story has been straightforward since forever:

    Classic-WotLK: She was killed by Arthas, so she wants revenge on him and will stop at nothing to achieve her goal, even if she has to betray humans, conduct experiment on the living, or siding with greenskins (and she certainly has no love for those savage races, given her interactions with the ogre band in WC3).

    Cataclysm-Legion: She has seen what Hell awaits her for her crimes, so she wants to do anything to avoid her own death. She seeks to ensure Forsaken dominance on Azeroth so that she never runs out of meatshield against Hell, for she needs her (and I quote) "arrows in the quiver". She's even willing to enslave Eyir to give herself and her meatshield an endless supply of val'kyrs, aka immortality. Even in MoP, for the 10 minutes she appeared, she was a complete asshole; threatening Theron with reanimating his fallen soldiers and refusing to ever serve a "troll warchief".

    Her story and motivations have always been straightforward. The ONLY thing hinting at something more was that one line from Legion website about her people being more important than her soul, which at this point has been answered. And with literally no surprise to anyone who read Edge of Night, her soul is more important to her than her meatshield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think the major difference is that most of Illidan's crimes were committed against otherwise fairly disposable NPCs over the course of one expansion, and for a number of people his heavy-handed retcons in Legion were bringing the character back to what he should have been.

    Sylvanas has been committing acts that are at best very morally dubious, at worst unquestionably evil since vanilla, and has only ramped up in both spotlight and heinous actions since Cataclysm, including of course fucking over the Alliance more than anyone in history save Arthas. Pretty much every player in said Alliance hates her fucking guts, and the Horde seemed split 50/50 at best most of the time. I think the genie's out of the bottle on this one. She's done just too many things to too many playable races/characters for a redemption to go over well. I already saw a lot of grumbling after the Shadowlands cinematic, and that was just her being a plot device who effortlessly trashes the Lich King while spouting her edgy one-liners. If they truly go full Kerrigan on us, kingdoms will burn indeed.
    They prob won't go Kerrigan route with her. They set up Kerrigan's redemption story way early in SC2's story and actually made her likeable once she was freed from her mind control.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-31 at 08:28 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post

    And considering I already believe that World of Warcraft's story has no narrative integrity, even between its latest expansions (I'm already lenient when it comes to long term continuity), I wouldn't really mind if they came up with a reason in Shadowlands to redeem Sylvanas and justify her actions. It would be bullshit, of course... just like Illidan's transformation was bullshit. But then again, her current development was bullshit as well, and clearly tonally dissonant for Horde players, and I'm not going to feel guilty if I have my way through bullshit narrative as long as Sylvanas haters don't. Given the subject matter of the expansion, it might even be plausible bullshit.
    I think the major difference is that most of Illidan's crimes were committed against otherwise fairly disposable NPCs over the course of one expansion, and for a number of people his heavy-handed retcons in Legion were bringing the character back to what he should have been.

    Sylvanas has been committing acts that are at best very morally dubious, at worst unquestionably evil since vanilla, and has only ramped up in both spotlight and heinous actions since Cataclysm, including of course fucking over the Alliance more than anyone in history save Arthas. Pretty much every player in said Alliance hates her fucking guts, and the Horde seemed split 50/50 at best most of the time. I think the genie's out of the bottle on this one. She's done just too many things to too many playable races/characters for a redemption to go over well. I already saw a lot of grumbling after the Shadowlands cinematic, and that was just her being a plot device who effortlessly trashes the Lich King while spouting her edgy one-liners. If they truly go full Kerrigan on us, kingdoms will burn indeed.

  10. #250
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the character, She was Assassinated. Her story had more depth and was much more than just bad guy doing bad things for generic reasons.

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    Rofl... okay.
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian, to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    When did that take place? Exactly.
    The denial is strong with this one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian, to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth. Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice
    #boycottchina

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Sylvanas isn't remotely on Orgrim's level. Orgrim tried to pull the Horde back from 'stab kill bleed wahey,' and most of his campaign in the northern Eastern Kingdoms was so the Horde would have enough land for those left behind on Draenor to settle and start anew. Orgrim began actively exiling the darkest elements of the Horde after killing the Shadow Council and only kept Gul'dan around because he absolutely, one-hundred-percent needed Gul'dan's loyalists in the short term (and made no secret to anyone, Gul'dan included, that he intended to cave Gul'dan's head in the second he caught a whiff of duplicity off the warlock). When Gul'dan split his forces off, Orgrim left him to die and kept pushing forward for a better future for the Horde. And even then, when the Alliance and Horde met in battle, Orgrim strived to keep the Horde conducting itself as proper warriors rather than the vicious brutes Gul'dan and Blackhand made them into (in order to better demonstrate this shift, novels and later portrayals retconned Orgrim's duel with Lothar into a fair fight rather than one where Lothar got blindsided).

    As soon as Sylvanas was handed the reins to the Horde, she immediately began taking steps to further her omnicidal agenda, cutting deals with death entities like Helya and seeking to enslave Eyir. After the defeat of the Burning Legion, Sylvanas threw the Horde right into another war, not to secure the Horde's future (despite that being the rhetoric she used outside her innermost circle) against the 'threat of the Alliance' (despite Anduin being a known peacemonger and the rest of the Alliance at the time being perfectly willing to take their cues from him) but because she needed a meat grinder to kill as many people as possible. She used a minor conflict in the far-flung reaches of Silithus as justification to attack Teldrassil, culminating in burning the night elves' primary civilian population center, again not for the rhetoric she used in public, but because every person killed on her order caused her to grow in power. The entirety of the Fourth War/Blood War, as overseen by Sylvanas, was a meat grinder for no other purpose than to be a meat grinder, including dragging unaffiliated third parties into the meat grinder to make it as bloody as possible.

    Orgrim engaged in a bloody war of expansion because he had no other feasible choice if he wanted to secure a future for the Horde beyond being Gul'dan's murderpuppets. Sylvanas engaged in a bloody war designed to kill as many people as feasibly possible because it secured more power for her specifically at the expense of both factions and several previously-unaffiliated third parties. Nobody came out better for having joined their respective factions except the vulpera and mechagnomes, who joined up after the meat grinder was finished and everyone was picking up the pieces.
    Orgrim did way more atrocities than sylvanas. Orgrim has killed way more people than Sylvanas.
    Everything ugly sylvanas may have done. Orgrim did ten time worse.
    The whole plot of the Sylvanas war was to secure the horde and break the alliance because they could attack again. A stormhein bis could happen any.time. she knew it, saurgang knew it.

    Same thing as Orgrim after destroying stormwind to the ground. He looked Howard north and thought he should massacre everybliving souls.
    Orgrim was a mass murderer, slayer of countless civilians, warmonger, and used the most vile powers he could have his hands on.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    Very interesting reply. What I think is the biggest issue in all of this is that the lore entries Blizzard produces (cinematics, books, important game events) often times feel like "Jebaited" moment when looking back at them after even one expansion. It's almost as if Blizzard intentionally made misleading stuff in order to achieve their "plot twists".

    But even with that in mind, Sylvanas story made at least a little bit of sense, up until Shadowlands. Shadowlands completely break her character. Sylvanas attitude in Legion, her inner thoughts in the book - nothing of it implies even a little bit what is her plan. And while maybe they didn't plan for all of it to go this way when they released these entries in the past, it's definitely a bad writing deciding to throw all of it into a trashcan, write in a new thread out of nowhere and say "plot twist!" or "it was the plan all along, noone knew!". Yeah, like not even Sylvanas knew apparently? Up until Shadowlands that is.
    Sylvanas had several motivation changes, some big and some minor, and they were almost always driven by some meta requirements of the game rather than character development, which technically means they were all derailments.

    Warcraft III Sylvanas was cool. She was edgy and ruthless, but she still remained sympathetic due to her tragic past, desire for freedom and "elven heart", and she clawed her way to the top with cunning and determination. Hers were probably my favorite missions in TFT.

    In Wrath, they made her incompetent in order to kick start the Horde vs Alliance conflict, then they deprived her of a resolution with Arthas because they wanted the focus to be on Tirion Fording and Bolvar for some reason. Then they made her suicidal (her TFT statement that "we will forge our own path in this world" did not suggest that she would be) as a plot device required to justify her 180 shift on raising Undead.

    This whole recruiting the Val'kyr to raise new Forsaken wasn't a natural development for Sylvanas, but Blizzard wanted to update the starting zone to match the Cataclysm time line and they needed a reason for new Forsaken characters to be "freshly created". Sure, the logical choice would have been to have Sylvanas steal more ghouls from Bolvar's remaining "restless Scourge", but that would have meant her focus should have been towards Northrend, or the Plaguelands at best. Since the Scourge was "done content" and they wanted to leave Northrend behind, this possibility wasn't even addressed.

    What really sealed the deal was the new Alliance race, the Worgen. Their in-lore starting zone was right next to Silverpine Forest, but they couldn't remain there - first of all because having two opposite faction zones so close to each other invited trouble, and second of all because they didn't want to make fully fledged capitals for the Worgen and Goblins anyway - so Blizzard, out of a gameplay and design imperative, had the Forsaken invade Gilneas and push them out of the zone. The Horde/Forsaken also had to initiate the conflict, because having it the other way around would have been weird to segue into the Worgen joining the Alliance as both isolationists and aggressors.

    So really, all the "evils" Sylvanas does there are not for the sake of her character development, but out of an imperative to create a starting zone for an Alliance race. From a meta perspective, she is literally yet another interesting Horde character sacrificed on the altar of villainy to provide a boss of the Alliance. Meanwhile, Genn Greymane, whose past would have allowed him to be a legitimately grey character, was white washed every step of the way... so no, I never believed the Alliance players deserved any sort of revenge for Gilneas.

    Admittedly, this new "the Forsaken must go on" Sylvanas could have been interesting, but they changed her yet again into a globalist warmonger for BFA, and the ultimate mistress of Death for Shadowlands, each time to kickstart the expansion, and not because it made sense or because it would have been cool to see her pursuing that (the burning of Teldrassil, I believe, left everyone unhappy).

    I think at this point we should appropriate a programming term and use it for Blizzard's writing: "spaghetti narrative".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If Vereesa's preferred methods is to outright kill the Sunreavers, I don't see anything strange or surprising with her "questioning Jaina's methods" as I'm sure she wouldn't agree with the idea of incarcerating them, which were Jaina's "method".
    She questioned it because that quest is about killing civilian shopkeepers who merely "sided" with the Sunreavers. Still wanting to sell stuff to the people you know from a certain group is a few times removed from the guilty people (leaders?) of that group, so it hardly warrants being executed in their own shops. But it's the Alliance who did it, so I'm sure it's fine. In fact, the blood elves already forgave Jaina and those merchants were probably secretly evil anyway.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth. Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice
    LFMAO can I make my signature with his pls xd

  15. #255
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the character, She was Assassinated. Her story had more depth and was much more than just bad guy doing bad things for generic reasons.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Rofl... okay. The writers called her Morally Grey, you say she never has been but i guess your opinion matters more because i guess reasons.
    the writers changed their mind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The denial is strong with this one.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth. Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice
    LOL thanks for the laugh
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  16. #256
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Regardless of how you feel about the character, She was Assassinated. Her story had more depth and was much more than just bad guy doing bad things for generic reasons.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Rofl... okay. The writers called her Morally Grey, you say she never has been but i guess your opinion matters more because i guess reasons.
    The writers never called her morally grey. They said the Horde was morally grey. Nothing else.

    The "Sylvanas morally grey" meme originates from Horde fanboys misinterpreting that line, but they never, in fact, said she herself was morally grey.

    There's a lot of harsh things that happen in war in general, when groups are fighting for survival. At the end of the day, they resort to desperate measures when it comes to the choice between that and extinction.

    Both sides should be worried about this. Azeroth is a world of grey, it's never been a world of black or white.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-31 at 09:07 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The writers never called her morally grey. They said the Horde was morally grey. Nothing else.

    The "Sylvanas morally grey" meme originates from Horde fanboys misinterpreting that line, but they never, in fact, said she herself was morally grey.
    Burning of Teldrassil makes her morally grey xd
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian,
    to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth.
    Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice

  18. #258
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The writers never called her morally grey. They said the Horde was morally grey.
    that aint even true, the exact quote is. "Azeroth is a land of morally grey choices."
    in response to a question about sylvanas and the horde, so it is easy for people to make the connection, but he was pointing out all sides make good and bad choices, and not all of these choices are as simple as "gopod or bad"

    A great example is the purging of stratholme.
    morally grey.
    i call it a good choice, but MANY call it a bad one, and it is grey for that and many reasons.
    illidan also made very many morally grey choices.
    hell EVEN KILJADEN, as he points out and we get from legion questing, he felt there was NO WAY his people could stand against sargeras, so he took the deal, knowing in his heart it was the only way to keep his people alive, as to go against a titan would be his races utter death. although his heart was wrong.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2020-03-31 at 09:07 PM.

  19. #259
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    that aint even true, the exact quote is. "Azeroth is a land of morally grey choices."
    in response to a question about sylvanas and the horde, so it is easy for people to make the connection, but he was pointing out all sides make good and bad choices, and not all of these choices are as simple as "gopod or bad"

    A great example is the purging of stratholme.
    morally grey.
    i call it a good choice, but MANY call it a bad one, and it is grey for that and many reasons.
    Yes I just found that interview, they didnt even say the Horde was morally grey itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Burning of Teldrassil makes her morally grey xd
    Probably all the ashes clumping up on her skin. It be like that sometimes.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-31 at 09:10 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think the major difference is that most of Illidan's crimes were committed against otherwise fairly disposable NPCs over the course of one expansion, and for a number of people his heavy-handed retcons in Legion were bringing the character back to what he should have been.

    Sylvanas has been committing acts that are at best very morally dubious, at worst unquestionably evil since vanilla, and has only ramped up in both spotlight and heinous actions since Cataclysm, including of course fucking over the Alliance more than anyone in history save Arthas. Pretty much every player in said Alliance hates her fucking guts, and the Horde seemed split 50/50 at best most of the time. I think the genie's out of the bottle on this one. She's done just too many things to too many playable races/characters for a redemption to go over well. I already saw a lot of grumbling after the Shadowlands cinematic, and that was just her being a plot device who effortlessly trashes the Lich King while spouting her edgy one-liners. If they truly go full Kerrigan on us, kingdoms will burn indeed.
    I explained what I think of her "heinous acts against the Alliance" in a previous comment.

    As a Horde player, I hate it when our characters get hit with the villain bat to provide bosses for the Alliance. Just because you feel victimized by a horde hero doesn't mean that they should become a villain to their own side and that I should help you kill them. When the bloody hell are we going to feel justified in hating an Alliance character? Even Genn, who was an absolute douchebag who left the Alliance because they didn't want to genocide the orcs and hid behind his wall for the entire Scourge and Legion invasions was now retconned into a kind, wise, loyal and tolerant old man.

    If you look at things from a meta-narrative perspective, you will realize that your need for satisfaction is a lot less pressing than our need to not get our first tier, interesting characters fucked over and killed time and time again. We're kind of running short on them.

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