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  1. #321
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Like when we destroyed Theramore? Or most of the forsaken campains? If you can only play as a bland lawfull good and your only knowlege of rpg is a selected part of wow lore, that's your problem.
    No, your character is canonically the hero. Ion literally said that. That's why lorewise you are now joining the rebels, whether you like it or not. If anything, it's you who still didn't understand this isn't a game where you play the villain and where there'll never be a villain faction, so seems to me like it's YOUR problem.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The heroes (you) will always win, because you're the protagonist. Thus, evil will always be brought to justice.
    But i play Forsaken, how the hell am i winning? And why would i bring "Еvil" to justice if i'm the part of the same system Sylvanas created?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    If you hate the fact that evil characters always die, I'm sorry, this has been the way in Warcraft since WC3 at least, when Archimonde died.
    I really don't. Sylvanas could die, forsaken could die. As i wouldn't mind Nelfs going extinct, or any other race's heroes dying.
    BUT not in MMO, when we have playable forsaken and thus playable scourge, that was build on that idea from day 1. And they see themselves as evil as any other race, so that's really subjective

    Forsaken lore was made to serve the story of BFA and not BFA story expanding forsaken lore. It was just milked for developing whatever that story was and thrown away. Again, maybe fine in RTS but Forsaken are a playable MMO faction for better or worse and should have been treated with a little bit more care as they were before.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, your character is canonically the hero. Ion literally said that. That's why lorewise you are now joining the rebels, whether you like it or not. If anything, it's you who still didn't understand this isn't a game where you play the villain and where there'll never be a villain faction, so seems to me like it's YOUR problem.
    ... So you, mean that's a game where you are not the one you attack? What kind of magic is that? It's like you are playing a character and you don't attack yourself?
    Amazing concept! Or you don't understand what you are saying.
    When we destroyed Theramore we were heroes? When we purge the livings from Lordaeron we are heroes? Damn, I knew I was a hero when I burnt down Theldrassil and all those baby elves!

    No you do what you are limited to do by the dev, but you are not limited to be the random lawfull good hero saviors of innocents.

  4. #324
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    But i play Forsaken, how the hell am i winning? And why would i bring "Еvil" to justice if i'm the part of the same system Sylvanas created?



    I really don't. Sylvanas could die, forsaken could die. As i wouldn't mind Nelfs going extinct, or any other race's heroes dying.
    BUT not in MMO, when we have playable forsaken and thus playable scourge, that was build on that idea from day 1. And they see themselves as evil as any other race, so that's really subjective

    Forsaken lore was made to serve the story of BFA and not BFA story expanding forsaken lore. It was just milked for developing whatever that story was and thrown away. Again, maybe fine in RTS but Forsaken are a playable MMO faction for better or worse and should have been treated with a little bit more care as they were before.
    Because you're still the hero even if you play Forsaken, canonically the characters will treat you like a good guy and you'll never join a villain like Sylvanas. That's literally what Ion said.

    Also BfA did not kill anyone. Forsaken are just not ruled by a psycho anymore.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, your character is canonically the hero. Ion literally said that. That's why lorewise you are now joining the rebels, whether you like it or not. If anything, it's you who still didn't understand this isn't a game where you play the villain and where there'll never be a villain faction, so seems to me like it's YOUR problem.

    I'm feeling you are missing the point, it's not about our character not being the hero, he is.
    But there is a balance to maintain, a status quo for playable races. Saying outright that your whole faction developement until now is wrong and your original leader is monster to be killed is outright spitting on Forsaken lore nerds that still play the faction for what they are.
    Imagine Blizzard forces dwarves collectively worship Smolderon or Old Gods, leaders and everything, so others can defeat them and expantion story revovles around that. That would suck even from my, horde perspective.

    I mean, Blizzard were fine making forsaken act lawful evil until now. Why throw them under the bus in BFA all the sudden?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Yeah I have no idea what kind of drugs the writing-team at Blizzard has taken but there is some serious flaws and plotholes with the entire Sylvanas-arc in BFA.

    The only people who would think Sylvanas = bad regardless are alliance-fanboys.
    And here we have the kind of broad, sweeping generalization that comes from a person devoutly following an agenda without actually knowing anything about the topic. "Everyone knows the story has huge pot holes!" "Name one." "Uhh, everyone knows they're there."
    "Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer." Powerogue 2019

  7. #327
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    I'm feeling you are missing the point, it's not about our character not being the hero, he is.
    But there is a balance to maintain, a status quo for playable races. Saying outright that your whole faction developement until now is wrong and your original leader is monster to be killed is outright spitting on Forsaken lore nerds that still play the faction for what they are.
    Imagine Blizzard forces dwarves collectively worship Smolderon or Old Gods, leaders and everything, so others can defeat them and expantion story revovles around that. That would suck even from my, horde perspective.

    I mean, Blizzard were fine making forsaken act lawful evil until now. Why throw them under the bus in BFA all the sudden?
    I was addressing your point that it's bad lore development if evil is always brought to justice. That's the way Warcraft has been since at least Reign of Chaos (though WC2 also ended with the good guys' victory) by very design of the game (you are the hero, so you'll defeat evil). If they run out of villains, they'll just come up with new ones. Garrosh was one of the major villains of WoW and he was created in TBC.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    And here we have the kind of broad, sweeping generalization that comes from a person devoutly following an agenda without actually knowing anything about the topic. "Everyone knows the story has huge pot holes!" "Name one." "Uhh, everyone knows they're there."
    You answered your own question there, good on you!

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I was addressing your point that it's bad lore development if evil is always brought to justice. That's the way Warcraft has been since at least Reign of Chaos (though WC2 also ended with the good guys' victory) by very design of the game (you are the hero, so you'll defeat evil).
    So in war3 FT when Sylvanas minds control or kill all the livings to become the biggest power on Lordaeron that was being good?
    When Arthas purge Stratholme, becomes corrupted by the Lich King, destroy Lordaeron, raise Sylvanas as undead, bring the legion and fuse with the LichKing those were good deeds?
    Being the hero does not mean being a good guy in warcraft.

  10. #330
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    So in war3 FT when Sylvanas minds control or kill all the livings to become the biggest power on Lordaeron that was being good?
    When Arthas purge Stratholme, becomes corrupted by the Lich King, destroy Lordaeron, raise Sylvanas as undead, bring the legion and fuse with the LichKing those were good deeds?
    Being the hero does not mean being a good guy in warcraft.
    Hell, even Doomhammer is portrayed as a hero of sorts (for Orcs, including Green Jesus, at least). And he did some seriously !@#&ed up crap that makes Sylvie look like an amateur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, it's not just the killing people thing. The dead are sent straight into the Maw, Sylvanas knows it, and she knowingly and willingly made a bargain to kill as many people as possible in order to empower herself. All that shit goes way beyond just killing your enemies in war. Blizzard has tons of stuff to explain (served with the usual healthy helping of retcons of course) if they want her being a good guy to make any sort of sense. Which is why I'm having a very, very hard time keeping any sort of open mind.
    Yes, the dead are sent to the Maw, but that would happen sooner or later anyway. For someone who is primarily concerned with what happens after death, what does it matter if someone gets to the Maw right now or after a long and prosperous life? That life is still nothing compared to the eternity of the beyond. So if killing lots of people right away would allow them to "fix" the Maw problem for the long term, wouldn't it be worth the sacrifice? This is very similar to what Illidan did last expansion, if more direct.

    Every time we faced the Legion, we "won" by closing a portal or defeating a demon lord, but after that they just kept trying, so every victory was merely postponing the final showdown. By opening the portal to Argus, Illidan forced us to have that final showdown right away, and it paid off... but a lot of people died because of it. On a cosmic level, maybe this was a necessary gambit, maybe we wouldn't have been able to stop the Legion 1000 years in the future and this was our one shot, but from the perspective of a regular mortal Joe down on Azeroth, it would have been better if Illidan, Velen, Khadgar and the raid group had sacrificed themselves at the end of the Kil'jaeden encounter and that particular invasion had ended there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Have you actually gone though any of the supporting lore around genn? He wasn’t white washed he got push back from varian in wolf heart got
    Push back from his own people in the curse comics and push back from the other wolfs in the silver pine questing. Characters coming to terms with what some one did and seeing past it isn’t white washing them.
    It doesn't matter that they justify his transformation in lore, the problem is that it happens in the first place.

    The Horde lacks Alliance antagonists that they can rally against, people like Garithos or Daelin Proudmoore, or like Sylvanas and Garrosh were for the Alliance. Pre-Cataclysm Genn Graymane would have been perfect for that role, but Blizzard gradually changed him to be more sympathetic, to the point that Before the Storm even made him tolerant towards the Undead. He was molded from a selfish asshole into a likeable protagonist, becoming the character Alliance players would have liked him to be. His past transgressions are barely even mentioned in game, even on the Horde side.

    Meanwhile, Sylvanas's character development in Cataclysm was hijacked by the requirements of the Worgen starting zone, like I explained. The question was never "What is the next logical step for Sylvanas right now?", or "What would Horde players like to see from Sylvanas?", but "What does the Worgen starting zone needs from Sylvanas as an antagonist?". This right after her place in the fight against Arthas was hijacked by Tirion the neutral human, and the spot of the Forsaken was tacitly taken by the playable Death Knight faction, also led by a human. As a Horde player, I wanted to see Sylvanas as a protagonist I could sympathize with (whether the Alliance liked her or not), and experience the nostalgia of seeing her be as clever as she was in Warcraft III, and I was robbed of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaade View Post
    snip
    World of Warcraft only broaches social and political issues in a very superficial manner. You can maybe project some real world ideas onto WoW, like you are doing now, but analysis of the world itself and its narrative does not lead to anything even remotely deep. The kind of commentary you can draw from WoW is not worth spoiling the immersion of a medieval fantasy world with kings, warlords and prophets, and that's coming from someone who was interested enough to get a masters in geopolitics.

    If you want to role play an Azerothian political analyst, I'm not going to hold it against you, but I'm not really interested. I mean, the core mechanics of the game don't lend themselves to being able to make the commentaries you brought up. First of all, 90% of all you do in game revolves around killing stuff, and killing sentient beings is even essential to some trades, such as tailoring. Stuff respawns all the time, so you will rarely get a true sense of loss from it, unless the narrative bends itself backwards to make a point of it. Second of all, the player character has absolute freedom. You can do anything you want, even if the narrative says you are ordered to do X job urgently under pain of death. You can go /spit on the High King or the Warchief, you can dance naked on top of them, you can jump with your crotch on their faces, nobody will do anything to you. You never have to go through any channels, and even when it comes to quest givers and other NPCs, they often seem quite independent, even on campaign. unless the narrative keeps telling you otherwise, and even then you have to buy into it.

    Cataclysm and MoP did a good job presenting the Horde as a totalitarian regime. The Orcs were the dominant race and they were fiercely loyal to Garrosh, often being seen pushing others around. Their salute, "Hellscream's eyes are upon you", was straight out of 1984. You saw the orcs stealing food from trolls and goblins and keeping a police force in the Undercity. And Garrosh himself was often shown abusing his power.

    Under Sylvanas, things are not the same at all. The whole point of Legion was that the Class Halls were taking charge and acting independently, like highly specialized NGOs. Sometimes they included Undead and Sylvanas herself provided support to them (we see a Dark Ranger in the hunter hall, apothecaries in the rogue hall), other times they worked with her enemies, and nobody questioned the Horde heroes about it. The Nighborne recruitment quest chain makes a point of stating the the Horde offers a member race more freedom than the Alliance.

    Even during the war, when you could argue the warchief's powers would be increased (as with any type of government during times of crisis). we see that Baine's arrest and Zelieg's execution are done in front of all the other Horde leaders, who could have intervened at any time if most of them didn't agree with Sylvanas. If their intention was to revisit a fascist regime, they did a very poor job, regardless of what Danuser says.

  12. #332
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    It doesn't matter that they justify his transformation in lore, the problem is that it happens in the first place.
    This is called character progression sylvanas got it as well you just don’t seem to like where her character progresses to even though it made perfect sense.

    The Horde lacks Alliance antagonists that they can rally against, people like Garithos or Daelin Proudmoore, or like Sylvanas and Garrosh were for the Alliance. Pre-Cataclysm Genn Graymane would have been perfect for that role, but Blizzard gradually changed him to be more sympathetic, to the point that Before the Storm even made him tolerant towards the Undead. He was molded from a selfish asshole into a likeable protagonist, becoming the character Alliance players would have liked him to be. His past transgressions are barely even mentioned in game, even on the Horde side.
    The horde has never lacked alliance
    antagonists you can look at this very forum and See people brining up varian, veressa, jiana, genn, captain Rodgers, ect. Maybe you want a cartoonishly evil character to hate but most people seem to understand that you don’t need to be twirling your mustache to be seen as a bad guy to the other faction.


    Meanwhile, Sylvanas's character development in Cataclysm was hijacked by the requirements of the Worgen starting zone, like I explained. The question was never "What is the next logical step for Sylvanas right now?", or "What would Horde players like to see from Sylvanas?", but "What does the Worgen starting zone needs from Sylvanas as an antagonist?". This right after her place in the fight against Arthas was hijacked by Tirion the neutral human, and the spot of the Forsaken was tacitly taken by the playable Death Knight faction, also led by a human. As a Horde player, I wanted to see Sylvanas as a protagonist I could sympathize with (whether the Alliance liked her or not), and experience the nostalgia of seeing her be as clever as she was in Warcraft III, and I was robbed of that.
    this Simply isn’t true. The logical steps for sylvanas were taken in cata in the worgen starting area she takes command as garrosh wants forsaken to die on mass and she goes against his orders to keep them alive. Then in silverpine she’s raising more undead which is again a logical step after she went to the maw and she is even shown to have some compassion left as she captures Crowley’s daughter but let’s her go instead of just killing her, this isn’t something that was done just for the worgen as they would have an even easier time hating her if she was killing prisoners without a second thought.

  13. #333
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    Daniel, question. Is ISIS morally justified under your delusions of moral relativity?
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    But i play Forsaken, how the hell am i winning? And why would i bring "Еvil" to justice if i'm the part of the same system Sylvanas created?

    I really don't. Sylvanas could die, forsaken could die. As i wouldn't mind Nelfs going extinct, or any other race's heroes dying.
    BUT not in MMO, when we have playable forsaken and thus playable scourge, that was build on that idea from day 1. And they see themselves as evil as any other race, so that's really subjective

    Forsaken lore was made to serve the story of BFA and not BFA story expanding forsaken lore. It was just milked for developing whatever that story was and thrown away. Again, maybe fine in RTS but Forsaken are a playable MMO faction for better or worse and should have been treated with a little bit more care as they were before.
    The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

    Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

    Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.
    they were a blend of "playable scourge" and "tragic misunderstood monster" since day1. thats even the reason why they appeared in the game in first place, dev apparently loved both fantasies behind them.

    anyway thats the big problem, sylvanas literally never did anything against any forsaken moral, the only thing is the speech in the last cinematic. and now we should buy that narrative and murder our rps because blizz says this? im not invested in voss, she was a nobody that refused to join my faction even after i helped her many times. im not invested in the shitty desolate council that never appeared in any quest/lore until the sudden creation of sad sack forsakens in the book. and damn if im not invested in calia, a shitty light follower that is the epitome of what i loathe.
    if blizz want to go this way at least it should grow a pair of balls and make something for us that would prefer deleting their character than become an hippie clown. let us die lorewise as proud forsaken if they dont know how to write an undead and ruthless playable race
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2020-04-01 at 05:56 PM.

  16. #336
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    how is a reanimated dead corpse better looking than a living, beautiful High Elven one
    didnt you see how hot looking sylvanas looked before they covered her in armor dead banshee or not she still looked good
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    didnt you see how hot looking sylvanas looked before they covered her in armor dead banshee or not she still looked good
    Alleria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sylvanas
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian,
    to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth.
    Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice

  18. #338
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Alleria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sylvanas
    This to be honest. Alleria and Vereesa are hotter than High Elf Sylvanas.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Even by your own metric sylvanas is evil. She tries to hurt the blood elf’s by raising them, she plans to kill her own sisters, she feeds the forsaken into the meat grinder for her self and her self alone, she betrays the horde. There is no part of “her people” who she doesn’t hurt or try to hurt.
    agreed...what she does now is very questionable... I was only speaking when she and all the other characters had good storytellers behind them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Killing an enemy is one thing, killing an enemies defenseless family and friends to extinquish their hope is quite different. Sylvanas did the latter at Teldrassil and she killed a lot more completely unrelated people because she did not care. Like the ones gruesomely killed in ther blight experiments and at the Wrathgate oh and when she was completely okay with poisoning the pandaren guards as long as it meant getting Garrosh.

    These are not the acts of a warrior fighting a war, killing enemies. These are the acts of a cowardly terrorist and villain that targets innocents to bring a point across.



    Sylvanas promised the land to him though. Even though Garithos was a rascist bastard, Sylvanas made a deal with him and betrayed him when he was no longer of use. Garithos at least was open about his rascism, but I agree that he got what was coming to him.
    He deserved his fate, but what about his troops? Even among them he was hated. The Dwarfs hated him and the humans only followed him because of his rank. Did they deserve to be slaughtered because their boss was an asshole? I don't think so.



    Ah you are one of those that think Sylvanas is the one shining light, the last vestige of good story left, such nonesense. How exactly did they destroy Arthas? He hasn't even appeared since WotLK and the others are completely in line with how they were wirtten in WC3...
    as I said..what she does now is just evil. (even tho In the official story that's Saurfangs fault for not killing Malfurion.(it is a war you are supposed to kill people)
    Wrathgate retcon. they no longer know what to do with their character

    do you want to speak evil during warcraft 3 events?...
    I invite you all to debate about the evilest character In warcraft 3...
    of course, I'm talking about tyrande whisperwind
    who brutally murdered her Own people...not some random stranger on the battlefield.
    in order to release a criminal....who ultimately she didn't know if he would help.
    which Bytheway backfired soon after as Illidan tried to destroy one of the pillars of the world costing more elven lives...
    as Maiev said..she deserves to be in a prison just as much as Illidan.
    Last edited by danielewhite; 2020-04-01 at 07:03 PM.

  20. #340
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    This to be honest. Alleria and Vereesa are hotter than High Elf Sylvanas.
    to be fair we havent really gotten to see updated high elf sylvanas.
    or updated vereesa.
    we have just the comics to go by which well...
    makidot's version of the comic is SOOOOOOOOOO much better.
    https://makanidotdot.tumblr.com/tagg...redraw/chrono/
    its black and white sketch, but i highly reccomend it, it really is a far better version.
    (Mostly cause i LOVE their art style, and how expressive they make the charecters. plus in their own fan writings they make the charecters so much more fun)

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