Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Combatbutler]

snip

It is more the mindset of killing anyone, who stands in your way. That is a clear red flag Sylvanas was fine that way, because she was merely a regional power and as such could remain such a character, but one thing that would have always sealed her fate would have been too much power.

[Varodoc]

Yeah I get it if we dont share your opinion we are "dense".

But his is not an opinion, it's a fact. Hint: there's a reason why she went to hell in WotLK.

[omeomorfismo]

If we can't even agree on "'unleashing a mindless destructive force of evil zombies to destroy Azeroth' is bad" then sorry, this isn't a game where you play the villain.

We killed the Lich King. The best you're going to get is re-playing the DK starting zone and stopping before they get redeemed over and over again.

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Well Wrathgate was bad but really wasn't against the forsaken's morals, and WC3's mind controlling to take over Tirisfal was before the Forsaken were formed so I don't think it should count.

i mean, isnt like a similar event wasnt the genesis of the forsakens in the first place. illidan did basically the same thing trying to destroy icecrow.
anyway im sticking with cata forsaken levelling. gilneas conquest, even with all the meta-narrative problems, is still the best thing out of that game for me. or that delicious quest with a shovel and human heads plantation

[Ahovv]

I'm glad you're coming to terms with how shitty WoW is

[Darth-Piekus]

i mean, isnt like a similar event wasnt the genesis of the forsakens in the first place. illidan did basically the same thing trying to destroy icecrow.
anyway im sticking with cata forsaken levelling. gilneas conquest, even with all the meta-narrative problems, is still the best thing out of that game for me. or that delicious quest with a shovel and human heads plantation

You need to come to terms that your character felt betrayed by the Banshee Queen and along with the Horde is chasing her all over Shadowlands to simply kill her. You simply can't be the villain. If you wanted a villain you should have tried Warhammer.

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i mean, isnt like a similar event wasnt the genesis of the forsakens in the first place. illidan did basically the same thing trying to destroy icecrow.
anyway im sticking with cata forsaken levelling. gilneas conquest, even with all the meta-narrative problems, is still the best thing out of that game for me. or that delicious quest with a shovel and human heads plantation

You need to come to terms that your character felt betrayed by the Banshee Queen and along with the Horde is chasing her all over Shadowlands to simply kill her. You simply can't be the villain. If you wanted a villain you should have tried Warhammer.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas isn't remotely on Orgrim's level. Orgrim tried to pull the Horde back from 'stab kill bleed wahey,' and most of his campaign in the northern Eastern Kingdoms was so the Horde would have enough land for those left behind on Draenor to settle and start anew. Orgrim began actively exiling the darkest elements of the Horde after killing the Shadow Council and only kept Gul'dan around because he absolutely, one-hundred-percent needed Gul'dan's loyalists in the short term (and made no secret to anyone, Gul'dan included, that he intended to cave Gul'dan's head in the second he caught a whiff of duplicity off the warlock). When Gul'dan split his forces off, Orgrim left him to die and kept pushing forward for a better future for the Horde. And even then, when the Alliance and Horde met in battle, Orgrim strived to keep the Horde conducting itself as proper warriors rather than the vicious brutes Gul'dan and Blackhand made them into (in order to better demonstrate this shift, novels and later portrayals retconned Orgrim's duel with Lothar into a fair fight rather than one where Lothar got blindsided).

Orgrim's first act as warchief was ordering Gul'dan to create Deathknights for him. True honor, proper conduct and redemption of the Horde right there.

As soon as Sylvanas was handed the reins to the Horde, she immediately began taking steps to further her omnicidal agenda, cutting deals with death entities like Helya and seeking to enslave Eyir. After the defeat of the Burning Legion, Sylvanas threw the Horde right into another war, not to secure the Horde's future (despite that being the rhetoric she used outside her innermost circle) against the 'threat of the Alliance' (despite Anduin being a known peacemonger and the rest of the Alliance at the time being perfectly willing to take their cues from him) but because she needed a meat grinder to kill as many people as possible. She used a minor conflict in the far-flung reaches of Silithus as justification to attack Teldrassil, culminating in burning the night elves' primary civilian population center, again not for the rhetoric she used in public, but because every person killed on her order caused her to grow in power. The entirety of the Fourth War/Blood War, as overseen by Sylvanas, was a meat grinder for no other purpose than to be a meat grinder, including dragging unaffiliated third parties into the meat grinder to make it as bloody as possible.

Instead the Old Horde allied with Deathwing. So much better. Also, the factions were in an ongoing conflict since 7.0 and needed a ceasefire even for a meeting of civilians on neutral ground. So much for Anduin's (hypocritical take on) peacemongering and the rest of the Alliance "being perfectly willing to take their cues from him". Also, even if you limit things to just Silithus, when Alliance thought that this would be the sole theater of war they still thought the casualties would be colossal and the war over Silithus would last for years.

Orgrim engaged in a bloody war of expansion because he had no other feasible choice if he wanted to secure a future for the Horde beyond being Gul'dan's murderpuppets. Sylvanas engaged in a bloody war designed to kill as many people as feasibly possible because it secured more power for her specifically at the expense of both factions and several previously-unaffiliated third parties. Nobody came out better for having joined their respective factions except the vulpera and mechagnomes, who joined up after the meat grinder was finished and everyone was picking up the pieces.

The First war already secured the southern part of EK for the Horde. Given the tiny size of Orc continent on Draenor, there was no really a need for him to expand further. Also, what dark fate befell the Nightborne, Highmountain and AU Mag'har (who were outright saved from Y'rel's decisive push)? And the Zandalari were targeted by the Alliance before they actually teamed up with the Horde.

i love how you make up stuff with this
"Restless scourge" you mean dead scourge
"Extinction of XYZ" drakkari were evil so.... vrykul also evil, the rest woulda been wiped out but...
"Global flooding" not exactly proven true
"Unleash yog and the faceless ones" he was unleashed anyways... so literally doesent matter
"Restless scourge" oh look, trying to make a point by repeating it, doesent make it true.
"Possible damage" yeah you are making that up
"possible madness of malf" again making stuff up
and oh look you repeat it again


no, ending the lich king woulda been so much better.

How would an attack on just the Frozen Throne kill all Scourge again? You also didn't refute anything about the extinction of Northrend's races. You excused some cases with "they were evil" (even though the Drakkari were just desperately fighting the Scourge back) and handwaving away the rest. And since Illidan's entire plan to destroy Icecrown was to break the polar icecaps, the flooding would kinda come with the territory. Finally, Yogg-Saron wasn't unleashed. His chains were simply loose.

I think the major difference is that most of Illidan's crimes were committed against otherwise fairly disposable NPCs over the course of one expansion, and for a number of people his heavy-handed retcons in Legion were bringing the character back to what he should have been.

Sylvanas has been committing acts that are at best very morally dubious, at worst unquestionably evil since vanilla, and has only ramped up in both spotlight and heinous actions since Cataclysm, including of course fucking over the Alliance more than anyone in history save Arthas. Pretty much every player in said Alliance hates her fucking guts, and the Horde seemed split 50/50 at best most of the time. I think the genie's out of the bottle on this one. She's done just too many things to too many playable races/characters for a redemption to go over well. I already saw a lot of grumbling after the Shadowlands cinematic, and that was just her being a plot device who effortlessly trashes the Lich King while spouting her edgy one-liners. If they truly go full Kerrigan on us, kingdoms will burn indeed.

Most of Sylvanas' actions were also against disposable NPCs. Hell, most of her victims weren't even NPCs, just background characters generally stated to have existed. And fucking the Alliance over is a good thing. Given how Blizzard's writing for the Alliance is them wanting to have the cake and eat it too where on one hand they repeatedly write stories about Alliance instigating conflict with the Horde but on the other instantly swipe it under the carpet and blame the conflict on the Horde just to preserve their idea of Alliance being a perfect paragon of perfection turns Alliance into a tumor on the entire setting. And since Alliance players won't ever be satisfied with anything given the constant moans about literally everything under the sun being """"""""""evidence"""""""""" of MUH HORDE BIAS, trying to conform to them is pointless and should be discarded as an idea. If Sylvanas ends up being killed they will start complaining that the Horde got to participate as well or that they didn't get to loot her teeth.

except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian, to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.

As has been already pointed out to you in this very thread, there's absolutely no examples of the Blight being experimented on any children and even the claim about civilians has no solid support.

Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth. Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice

Talking about making someone realize the truth in context of FelPlague's made up claim makes no sense whatsoever.

The entire Horde story in Silverpine (itself narratively subordinated to the meta requirement of introducing the Alliance race) ends in failure, undermining one of Sylvanas's best traits, her cunning, for the sake of Alliance ego and leaving open the long term possibility that the Worgen would retake Gilneas - even though you had to evacuate the zone, we don't conquer it either.

Silverpine ends in Sylvanas destroying the Seventh Legion reinforcements and Amber Mill, then forcing GLF to surrender, which caused Bloodfang's Pack to retreat to Hillsbrad (where they are also dealt with). And while Alliance tried to strike at Gilneas some more via the battleground, they ceased that before Cata even ended. As per Before the Storm Gilneas is home to Forsaken now.

[Manariel]

With the sole exception of Andorhal (and that's quite arguable btw) all your others examples belong to BfA, aka her assassination as a character. Kinda proving OP's point, I'd say.

Herm... the whole of Cataclysm Forsaken zones ? Where the player slaughter dozens of peoples and raise them and suddenly they are all perfectly fine to yell "For the Dark Lady" and start kill their friends, at the side of the guys who killed them seconds ago ? Andorhal is but one example of such behavior. And even before Cata, there is hardly any example of her caring about the Forsaken.

[Mehrunes]

removing the position of warchief might just be the best damn thing thats happened to the horde. Since now no one goof will be able to rough shod their agenda and everyone be forced to follow cuz bLoOd OaTh.

Given how the council is full of kumbaya singers that have no spines and don't disagree with each other on anything because it's sinful, the moment one of them pitches the idea of melting down Dwarven children for a vaporub the rest of them will roll with it. Besides, as shown in Vulpera questline Baine alone is running things while the rest do fuck all.

You should probably level in undead zones in Classic sometime, and take time to read the quests and stick around for the RP events. Take a look around Undercity, too. Turns out the powers that be in Warcraft's cosmology consider experimenting on sentient creatures to perfect a plague that can kill everything, with the stated goal of using it to kill everything, and allowing the spread of slavery among your people (including lovely examples like Theresa, who was lobotomized, force-fed alchemical concotions, and tortured into a mindless puppet with no self-actualization to be found) pretty significant moral failings worthy of being chucked into the Maw.

Meanwhile joining an omnicidal Fel cult that is on a rampage across all realities that killed more people than all Sylvanases from all realities combined lands you in Revendreth. And the stated goal of the Blight was never to kill everything, only the Scourge (for being Scourge) and the humans (for spawning Arthas).

[Altdorf]

She was conceived as a will-be-villain. In fact she took her time to reach this point. Everybody knew she was behind Putress and you can discuss her crimes or "justice" or whatever you like but she was doomed to be a villain since the first time she raised a forsaken and cursed him with the undeath as Arthas did to herself.

[Manariel]

Meanwhile joining an omnicidal Fel cult that is on a rampage across all realities that killed more people than all Sylvanases from all realities combined lands you in Revendreth. And the stated goal of the Blight was never to kill everything, only the Scourge (for being Scourge) and the humans (for spawning Arthas).

Herm... Not really : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Glory_(short_story)

Death to the livings, remember. Not the humans.

[Mehrunes]

Torturing captured civilians, man, woman, and child through experimentation to try and invent a stronger and stronger plague.

Can you stop pulling out the children and civilians out of the Nether? Provide a single example of a child or someone that's confirmed to be a civilian rather than a member of one of the anti-Forsaken militia groups in the region or cease.

Have you actually gone though any of the supporting lore around genn? He wasn’t white washed he got push back from varian in wolf heart got
Push back from his own people in the curse comics and push back from the other wolfs in the silver pine questing. Characters coming to terms with what some one did and seeing past it isn’t white washing them.

Completely brushing his shenanigans at Stormheim under the carpet is whitewashing him though. And Genn isn't even present in Silverpine questing.

The ends don’t tend to justify the means when it comes to after life’s. Her fighting against the lichking doesn’t make all the messed up stuff she did ok not the stitching people together to make abombs or live testing the blight on people.

Kael had both worse means and the ends than Sylvanas prior to her suicide and he still avoided the Maw.

I know, I didn't deny she already committed terrible things in Classic. But to me her behaviour in Cataclysm raised many red flags. Nothing she did in Classic comes close to her attempt to exterminate the gilnean people, though she was evil back then too.

But she didn't try to exterminate the Gilnean people. She let them flee with the Night Elves and even when GLF that continued the fighting was at her mercy she still forced them into submission rather than eradicating them.

Even by your own metric sylvanas is evil. She tries to hurt the blood elf’s by raising them, she plans to kill her own sisters, she feeds the forsaken into the meat grinder for her self and her self alone, she betrays the horde. There is no part of “her people” who she doesn’t hurt or try to hurt.

Not only were Blood Elves not her people at the time, but how does giving someone another shot at life hurt them? The guy with hate-boner for Malfurion didn't seem particularly hurt.

Familiar to Sylvanas? Not really. Her plan is a lot more selfish than Arthas'. At least Arthas thought he was genuinely ensuring Azeroth's protection against greater evils. Sylvanas wants to kill everyone literally because she's a nihilist. She's a lot more selfish than Arthas. Also Arthas AT THE VERY LEAST saw the Scourge as his children and took great pride in stirring the hearts of his "people". Sylvanas doesn't even care about her loyalists and sees everyone as an expendable pawn. At this point she's become worse than her abuser.

You're not only grasping at straws to disprove @Minikin here but those straws don't even actually exist. The only time anything about stirring the hearts of his people has been said in reference to Arthas was Terenas' speech to Arthas before he got Scourged. Likewise, the bit about seeing the Scourge as his children is another fabrication of yours. At most he saw them as his subjects when he was in his phase of parading as the king of Lordaeron. But that ended when the Forsaken rebelled. And he became the Lich King and gained his new perspective only later on. On top of that, Arthas wasn't genuinely ensuring anything. We've seen in Velen's visions that a completely Scourged Azeroth, even one led by a better Lich King than Arthas, was facerolled by the Legion. And since Sylvanas thinks she's doing things "for the greater good" and that her goal will set everyone free (from something) you trying to pretend she's somehow more selfish than Arthas here has no basis in reality. Even despite you saying it twice in one post.

Oh yes, totally, and what you wrote shows just how selfish she is. Most villains start wars out of good intentions, like Garrosh, Sargeras, or Arthas, but Sylvanas is literally doing all of this just to empower herself and the Jailer, she has no higher purpose, and that's what makes her so vile to me.

Not that there's anything wrong with liking vile characters, it's fiction after all. But it is annoying when people try to justify her actions, just admit she's evil so that we can move on. At this point it's not worth to die on that hill.

Arthas' methods were as bad as Sylvanas', but at the very least he had good intentions. He wanted to unite the world against any threat and create a world without injustice or disorder, whereas Sylvanas doesn't even have any higher aspiration aside from getting stronger to avoid another situation like Edge of Night, where she's powerless in hell.

Except none of that is true. Sylvanas wants to change the very nature of death or something along those lines for the benefit of all. That she gets personally stronger from all those that died in order for her to achieve her goals doesn't change that. Just like the Lich King personally growing stronger with each undead added to his hive mind doesn't change the fact that there was something good in Arthas' motivations.

You do realize that undeads have no rights to exist, right ? That they are utter abominations and that the Forsakens have proven since day one that they were at least as monstrous as the zealots corrupted by a Dread Lord after having endured a zombie apocalyspe in a medieval settings, without any other reason than shit and giggles and how dare some peoples be alive when they died;

Forsakens have been evil since forever, so has Sylvanas. That bshe was WoW's waifu for so long preserved her, but she was always a monster since TFT, and she - and the Forsaken - deserve to be killed.

Who decided that, exactly?

That a faction itself is led by absolute rules is how feudal monarchy works, it's pyramid-shaped and it's fascist in nature. The moment you go on to the greater plane, such as the power structure of the Alliance itself then yes, the high leader of the Alliance makes the final decision, it's needed to point the alliance in the same direction, and each member of said alliance still have autonomy, can counsel their high leader and if they disagree they can do their own thing without great repercussions, such as when the NE and the Worgen went to Southshore despite Anduin's wishes.

Now the same situation happened in the Horde when Baine disagreed with how Derek Proudmore was treated. Instead of bringing up his protests, even though many of the other faction leaders agreed with him, he could only rebel against the system and indeed Sylvanas made an example out of him in order to silence other dissidents. How can a system encourage the members of the alliance to be equal when the leader is clearly more equal than everyone else?

The Horde Warchief system is utterly fascistic and autocratic in nature. No retroactive, biased interpretation is needed as it's an objective interpretation of everything shown in the game. It's biased to interpret it as anything else.

But Baine did bring up protests when Sylvanas raised Derek. Sylvanas just dismissed them as was her right. Just like Anduin isn't actually bound by the counsel of other Alliance leaders. So the difference between the factions you're trying to establish here doesn't exactly exist. Baine simply disliked Sylvanas entertaining her right to ignore his whining because in his deluded mind he felt entitled for his position to be forced upon her but at the same time he didn't have the balls to challenge Sylvanas for the leadership position in accordance with Horde customs. So he committed treason. And was rightfully punished for that. In a less lenient way than what he himself argued is just in the Horde. And what's with your facetious remarks about equality? Who exactly ever claimed that about the Horde? The Warchief position is explicitly a leadeship role and has always been. That doesn't even remotely imply equality.

It's not LARPing. Undead are inherently cursed monsters who don't belong in the world of the living. Even Sylvanas agreed, hence why she committed suicide as soon as her purpose in the world of the living was finished.

Obviously that had nothing to do with the "no purpose part" /s

And here we have the kind of broad, sweeping generalization that comes from a person devoutly following an agenda without actually knowing anything about the topic. "Everyone knows the story has huge pot holes!" "Name one." "Uhh, everyone knows they're there."

You said the same thing about retcons. Not that people providing you examples of those actually achieved anything.

The horde has never lacked alliance
antagonists you can look at this very forum and See people brining up varian, veressa, jiana, genn, captain Rodgers, ect. Maybe you want a cartoonishly evil character to hate but most people seem to understand that you don’t need to be twirling your mustache to be seen as a bad guy to the other faction.

You're conflating two different things. Just because Horde players may dislike those characters doesn't make them antagonists. Blizzard does not even remotely present them that way and constantly brushes their wrongdoing under the carpet. Jaina's Purge of Dalaran? The Sunreavers that teamed up with Sylvanas and tried to prevent traitors working with the Alliance to free another traitor were presented as the ones in the wrong and condemned for still clinging to the Purge by their own goddamn leader. I can't even think when was the last time Rodgers was brought up in Horde questlines. Genn's Stormheim shenanigans were handwaved away and the most response it got from the Horde was a passing thought from Saurfang how that was something to be concerned about. Since Purge of Dalaran is ignored as a thing in lore Vereesa is also off the hook. Varian declared the WotLK-MoP Horde and yet in-story it's all blamed on big bad Garrosh who wasn't even Warchief when it started. None of your examples even remotely prove @Coconut wrong, with Thrall still beating himself over it.

this Simply isn’t true. The logical steps for sylvanas were taken in cata in the worgen starting area she takes command as garrosh wants forsaken to die on mass and she goes against his orders to keep them alive. Then in silverpine she’s raising more undead which is again a logical step after she went to the maw and she is even shown to have some compassion left as she captures Crowley’s daughter but let’s her go instead of just killing her, this isn’t something that was done just for the worgen as they would have an even easier time hating her if she was killing prisoners without a second thought.

But she was already working with the Jailer then and that retcon makes everything she did there very not logical. And Sylvanas already killed Liam to cement her status as the big bad. Anything else would simply deprive Alliance characters of important characters. Something Blizzard has no problems doing to the Horde where they throw disposable villain tags around the NPCs as if they were candy.

The forsaken are edgy and definitely the most evil playable race, but they were never supposed to be "playable scourge." Sylvanas has betrayed them and the values they had come to cherish that they saw as distinguishing themselves from the scourge (namely, free will). They have every reason, if not the most reason now next to the night elves, to want Sylvanas dead.

Still, if the two encounter each other, I will absolutely try to kill you, and you will definitely try to eat my brains. Such is life.

They were doing basically everything the Scourge did sans the mental enslavement of all life since day 1. And please, stop finally peddling the falsehood of Sylvanas betraying the values of free will.

we have just the comics to go by which well...
makidot's version of the comic is SOOOOOOOOOO much better.
https://makanidotdot.tumblr.com/tagg...redraw/chrono/
its black and white sketch, but i highly reccomend it, it really is a far better version.
(Mostly cause i LOVE their art style, and how expressive they make the charecters. plus in their own fan writings they make the charecters so much more fun)

Technically speaking, an inkblot test in which you maybe could see the characters from that comic would still be a better version of that comic. It's simply that bad. But yes, those sketches are pretty nice.

[KaiserSolarius]

Meanwhile joining an omnicidal Fel cult that is on a rampage across all realities that killed more people than all Sylvanases from all realities combined lands you in Revendreth.

Everyone knows why Kael'Thas is in Ravendreth and not in the Maw. It has absolutely nothing to do with any in game reasoning. Kael joining the Legion never made sense and him being sacrifcied (twice) as a loot pinata is universally considered as a waste of good character. I actually never saw anyone try to justify or defend Blizzard on that after all these years.
So yes, you're right, joining the Legion of your own free will is a pretty good reason to be sent to the Maw and while it doesn't make sense for Kael to not be there, it just doesn't make sense either for Kael to have done that in the first place, so much that even Blizzard realized it. So they're trying to make it right by giving him his little redemption arc.

And it's probably going to be awful. But since Kael is a special case, I don't think he should be used as an exemple of who deserves or doesn't deserve to be sent to the Maw.

[Mehrunes]

I would redirect you to:
-Andorhal
-Before The Storm (Stop by and visit the brand new graveyard!)
-Zelling
-spitting in the face of the entire Horde and ghosting at the end of the War Campaign
-taking the time to admit to every single crime committed over the course of BFA to your face and saying that she never cared about, only pitied, the forsaken at the loyalist epilogue
-unleashing the Scourge

Neither resurrecting new undead nor punishing traitors is against Forsaken morals.

More punishing traitors (as per Calia everyone other than Elsie was defecting prior to Sylvanas deploying the Dark Rangers which put fear of the maker in some of them and made them reconsider, Elsie herself ignored the order to retreat to argue with Calia). Still not against Forsaken morals.

Yet another traitor that got punished. What's next, you'll use Warden Stillwater as an example?

Letting people GTFO if they so desire is explicitly a Forsaken moral so you got this one somehow even more wrong than the prior three examples.

Caring about anything is also not actually a Forsaken moral.

Finally, unleashing the Scourge is not something the Forsaken would feel bad about. If anything, that would free some thinking undead from the Lich King's enslavement, which they are very in favor of.

Literally none of your examples did anything to prove @omeomorfismo wrong.

With the sole exception of Andorhal (and that's quite arguable btw) all your others examples belong to BfA, aka her assassination as a character. Kinda proving OP's point, I'd say.

They don't prove anything. 40% of the non-Andorhal examples are Sylvanas punishing treason, which she has always done. Like any other leader in WoW. And while those examples could maybe be argued to prove the OP right, they do nothing to address the post @Powerogue was actually replying to because that post talked about Sylvanas not doing anything against Forsaken morals and even the three remaining examples are at best immaterial to Forsaken morals with at least one of them being in alignment with those morals.

How did wrathgate do anything to prevent her from dying?

Who claimed it did? Besides, when Danuser was asked to confirm Afrasiabi's statements about Sylvanas and the Wrathgate he not only refused to do so, he distanced himself from those claims.

If we can't even agree on "'unleashing a mindless destructive force of evil zombies to destroy Azeroth' is bad" then sorry, this isn't a game where you play the villain.

Weird how in your third paragraph in an off-tangent reply to @Soon-TM you somehow were capable of remembering that the post you were answering to was about being things against Forsaken morals but here when it's inconvenient for you you accidentally forgot that by accident and equally accidentally moved the goalposts by accidental accident, despite this being a reply to the same person that started this whole Forsaken morality discussion with you. What a mystery it is.

We killed the Lich King. The best you're going to get is re-playing the DK starting zone and stopping before they get redeemed over and over again.

We killed a Lich King and instantly replaced him with another to do the same exact mind slavery on the Scourge.

Well Wrathgate was bad but really wasn't against the forsaken's morals, and WC3's mind controlling to take over Tirisfal was before the Forsaken were formed so I don't think it should count.

What's with people bringing up Wrathgate when it doesn't make contextual sense on this page?

Herm... Not really : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Glory_(short_story)

Death to the livings, remember. Not the humans.

What does a war cry from Putress have to do with Sylvanas' reasons for ordering the creation of the Blight? And even if they did have something to do, the thing I mentioned came from Rise of the Lich King, which is a later piece of lore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Completely brushing his shenanigans at Stormheim under the carpet is whitewashing him though. And Genn isn't even present in Silverpine questing.

I could be wrong as it’s been some time since I’ve done silverpine but I’m pretty sure the worgen dude who isn’t Crowley bemoans genn for not being there helping the effort. This is also only talking about cata and before.

Not only were Blood Elves not her people at the time, but how does giving someone another shot at life hurt them? The guy with hate-boner for Malfurion didn't seem particularly hurt.

given that sylvanas her self has lines like “what are we if not slaves to this torment” giving some one another shot at life isn’t all it’s cracked up to be unless your already a brutal psycho.

You're conflating two different things. Just because Horde players may dislike those characters doesn't make them antagonists. Blizzard does not even remotely present them that way and constantly brushes their wrongdoing under the carpet. Jaina's Purge of Dalaran? The Sunreavers that teamed up with Sylvanas and tried to prevent traitors working with the Alliance to free another traitor were presented as the ones in the wrong and condemned for still clinging to the Purge by their own goddamn leader. I can't even think when was the last time Rodgers was brought up in Horde questlines. Genn's Stormheim shenanigans were handwaved away and the most response it got from the Horde was a passing thought from Saurfang how that was something to be concerned about. Since Purge of Dalaran is ignored as a thing in lore Vereesa is also off the hook. Varian declared the WotLK-MoP Horde and yet in-story it's all blamed on big bad Garrosh who wasn't even Warchief when it started. None of your examples even remotely prove @Coconut wrong, with Thrall still beating himself over it.




But she was already working with the Jailer then and that retcon makes everything she did there very not logical. And Sylvanas already killed Liam to cement her status as the big bad. Anything else would simply deprive Alliance characters of important characters. Something Blizzard has no problems doing to the Horde where they throw disposable villain tags around the NPCs as if they were candy

I’m in not way talking about a macro scale where you go two expans down the line or take into account retcons and then say it doesn’t count. If your going to do that then any antagonist can just get the illidan or mieve treatment Which makes any conversion meaningless.

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More punishing traitors (as per Calia everyone other than Elsie was defecting prior to Sylvanas deploying the Dark Rangers which put fear of the maker in some of them and made them reconsider, Elsie herself ignored the order to retreat to argue with Calia)

This isn’t true of the 11 or so forsaken 4 or so we’re defecting the rest were killed simply because sylvanas didn’t want them to spread hope within the forsaken for peace the book supports nothing else and your just making stuff up about the rest.

[Powerogue]

Herm... Not really : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Glory_(short_story)

Death to the livings, remember. Not the humans.

Very neat, and feeds into the mindset we saw grasp the orcs in Cataclysm with Hellscream's rise to power. And most interestingly mentions a forsaken amidst the battle against the Lich King, which would mark the first forsaken murdered under Sylvanas's orders! Neat-o, even if Blizzard has probably long forgotten about this story when making such retcons.

[Quaade]

Except none of that is true. Sylvanas wants to change the very nature of death or something along those lines for the benefit of all. That she gets personally stronger from all those that died in order for her to achieve her goals doesn't change that. Just like the Lich King personally growing stronger with each undead added to his hive mind doesn't change the fact that there was something good in Arthas' motivations. .

What does any of that drivel have to do with anything other than you trying to distract from the actual argument and hoping that we get into a pointless discussion about this so you can continue ignoring what I said? On second thought. I think I just answered my own question.

[DemonHunter18]

sooooooooooooooooooooo what are people discussing for over 20 pages???

I'll make your day easier, guys xd

Sylvanas is evil.

[Varodoc]

sooooooooooooooooooooo what are people discussing for over 20 pages???

I'll make your day easier, guys xd

Sylvanas is evil.

We'll both be missing these threads once Sylvanas is finally gone.

[DemonHunter18]

We'll both be missing these threads once Sylvanas is finally gone.

considering their current writing, I wouldn't be surprised if she is just imprisoned.

the Golden Boy is gonna forgive her

[Varodoc]

considering their current writing, I wouldn't be surprised if she is just imprisoned.

the Golden Boy is gonna forgive her

I'll take it, she'll be gone either way. It's a win-win situation.