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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not sure why people still cling to the idea that Danuser wants to redeem Sylvanas and maker her a hero... in the last interview, he was very harsh on her, stating that she started the war and that she's Garrosh 2.0. My faith in Danuser has been restored fully.
    Besides how many times have they done that Redemption story? A lot of times already. Medivh, Grom two times, Kerrigan, Illidan. These characters though had reedeeming qualities. How can Sylvannas be reedeemed if she doesnt have reedeeming qualities?

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    WAIT WHAT?!

    links please i dont believe that guy stopped loving sylvanas
    https://www.windowscentral.com/world...ry-shadowlands

    To demonstrate that there is a cycle, we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took. A warchief promoted under questionable circumstances. A brutal act of aggression that instigated conflict. Distrust among the inner circle that led to an uprising. These parallels were intentional.
    Now hopefully I can stop reading headcanon like "Alliance started the war in Stormheim".

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Besides how many times have they done that Redemption story? A lot of times already. Medivh, Grom two times, Kerrigan, Illidan. These characters though had reedeeming qualities. How can Sylvannas be reedeemed if she doesnt have reedeeming qualities?
    Yep. People liked the redemption stories of Illidan and Kerrigan because they were given redeeming qualities, while people hated the redemption story of Grommash, because he was not given any redeeming character trait whatsoever and we just sort of had to accept he was good now. Sylvanas will be Grommash 2.0, not Kerrigan/Illidan 2.0 if they want to redeem her.

    But again, it's so unlikely that she'll be redeemed, and plus I'm sure they've learned from the massive backlash they got after they redeemed Grommash.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-04-03 at 08:53 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    You are mistaken. Not every Forsaken is like this. Blizzard has created them for the sole purpose to be different from the Scourge. A lot of them were the same as they used to be in life. The Forsaken Champion is one of them. At worst your character felt deceived and betrayed and now helps the Horde chase down the Banshee Queen. With all due respect. Didn't you know what game were you playing? Have you never played Warcraft 3 and Wow Vanilla to see how the Forsaken started?
    lol? i was the one that gave the plague sample to the dwarf and didnt give a fuck, i was the one that assassinated the blood stone fugitives or even the scarlet crusader's captives in wrath. still didnt giving a single fuck. or the one that with belmont conquered gilneas, plagued the farm north andorhal and smashed human heads in hillsbrad. i could be full forsaken until bfa, where the spread of plague in the lordaeron battelfied was basically the last time i could play normally.
    did you ever played a forsaken quest?

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    https://www.windowscentral.com/world...ry-shadowlands



    Now hopefully I can stop reading headcanon like "Alliance started the war in Stormheim".
    It is a regular practice of people here to deny or dismiss written facts they dislike. No matter if those facts come from Blizzard, Golden or whoever. I would say this thread is the perfect example for that. So this sadly won't change a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yep. People liked the redemption stories of Illidan and Kerrigan because they were given redeeming qualities, while people hated the redemption story of Grommash, because he was not given any redeeming character trait whatsoever and we just sort of had to accept he was good now. Sylvanas will be Grommash 2.0, not Kerrigan/Illidan 2.0 if they want to redeem her.

    But again, it's so unlikely that she'll be redeemed, and plus I'm sure they've learned from the massive backlash they got after they redeemed Grommash.
    Pretty much this yes. Even when Kerrigan began slaughtering humans again (after her second transformation) she showed regret and forbade Abathur to experiment on humans and she also spared some civilians and wounded. She was a monster, but there was still some good left in her that made her want redemption and that made the redemption she got work.

    Sylvanas has never expressed so much as discomfort at the thought of murdering others and she takes great pleasure in boasting with her crimes (towards Genn for one), she routinely experimented on humans to strengthen her bioweapon and damns others to her horrible fate. She actively squandered her chance at redemption after Edge of Night and took all measures to be even worse then Arthas while hiding in the shadows of the Horde like the coward she is. There is no act she could commit now, that would make her redemption believable or deserved.
    She has decided to be the uncaring villain and I could not care less about her goals. She will die for all the crimes she commited, no matter what the reasons for them will turn out to be.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It is a regular practice of people here to deny or dismiss written facts they dislike. No matter if those facts come from Blizzard, Golden or whoever. I would say this thread is the perfect example for that. So this sadly won't change a thing.



    Pretty much this yes. Even when Kerrigan began slaughtering humans again (after her second transformation) she showed regret and forbade Abathur to experiment on humans and she also spared some civilians and wounded. She was a monster, but there was still some good left in her that made her want redemption and that made the redemption she got work.

    Sylvanas has never expressed so much as discomfort at the thought of murdering others and she takes great pleasure in boasting with her crimes (towards Genn for one), she routinely experimented on humans to strengthen her bioweapon and damns others to her horrible fate. She actively squandered her chance at redemption after Edge of Night and took all measures to be even worse then Arthas while hiding in the shadows of the Horde like the coward she is. There is no act she could commit now, that would make her redemption believable or deserved.
    She has decided to be the uncaring villain and I could not care less about her goals. She will die for all the crimes she commited, no matter what the reasons for them will turn out to be.
    Indeed. Kerrigan in HoTs showed a lot of redeeming qualities, such as when she undermined her own invasion to avoid civilian casualties or when she decided to spare the Terran soldiers fleeing Char.

    Sylvanas instead doesn't give a shit about murdering people. And when you think about it, she never will. Because her plan relies entirely on killing people, especially civilians. That's why they are clearly not setting her up as Kerrigan 2.0.

    At best she'll realize upon dying that she became just as evil as Arthas, and beg for forgiveness with her last breath, but that's about it.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    who drags her out in chains? whos people have been hurt the most?!!
    The Tortollan? The closest analogy to Pandaren that I can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #407
    I think that everyone of us has his own idea of how the story should go and how the chars should be developed.

    Pleasing everyone is simply impossible.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Now hopefully I can stop reading headcanon like "Alliance started the war in Stormheim".
    You do realize there can be more than one causes of war, right? All the way back to Vanilla we had multiple concurrent fronts of Alliance-Horde conflict instigated by various parties. Especially since Danuser's words are "instigated conflict" which is a general statement. He didn't say that instigated any and all Alliance hostilities or even the war. You're putting words in his mouth. And as for Stormheim, Before the Storm makes it blatantly clear that the factions were in open conflict already at that time as they needed a ceasefire to make the Gathering happen. Even though it took place on neutral ground. And for a ceasefire to exist there must also exist a fire that has to be ceased in the first place. The word basically holds your hand there and yet that part of the book somehow still doesn't register with Alliance posters on this site. A very mysterious mystery.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yep. People liked the redemption stories of Illidan and Kerrigan because they were given redeeming qualities, while people hated the redemption story of Grommash, because he was not given any redeeming character trait whatsoever and we just sort of had to accept he was good now. Sylvanas will be Grommash 2.0, not Kerrigan/Illidan 2.0 if they want to redeem her..
    Ah, yes. Because the redemption of Illidan and especially Kerrigan were so very well received.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It is a regular practice of people here to deny or dismiss written facts they dislike. No matter if those facts come from Blizzard, Golden or whoever. I would say this thread is the perfect example for that. So this sadly won't change a thing.
    You mean the Golden that wrote Before the Storms, including the part about Horde and Alliance already being in open conflict? The ones to deny to dismiss written facts one dislikes here is you. And Varodoc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #409
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    https://www.windowscentral.com/world...ry-shadowlands



    Now hopefully I can stop reading headcanon like "Alliance started the war in Stormheim"..
    Holy volcano fudge mountain craps......

    Well I'm usually not lost for words but wow
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    lol? i was the one that gave the plague sample to the dwarf and didnt give a fuck, i was the one that assassinated the blood stone fugitives or even the scarlet crusader's captives in wrath. still didnt giving a single fuck. or the one that with belmont conquered gilneas, plagued the farm north andorhal and smashed human heads in hillsbrad. i could be full forsaken until bfa, where the spread of plague in the lordaeron battelfied was basically the last time i could play normally.
    did you ever played a forsaken quest?
    And in the end at best your character felt betrayed cause your Queen didn't care about you. She wanted to kill all of Azeroth so she could gain more power and your character now hates her for it and wants along with the whole Horde to track her and end her. All these quests you did for her was for her to end all of Azeroth.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    And in the end at best your character felt betrayed cause your Queen didn't care about you. She wanted to kill all of Azeroth so she could gain more power and your character now hates her for it and wants along with the whole Horde to track her and end her. All these quests you did for her was for her to end all of Azeroth.
    she didnt care about me to the point that she gave me an hearthstone to tell me

    Ah champion, I wasn't certain you made it out of Orgrimmar. If the traitors know of your service to me, they'd have put you in irons...or worse. Saurfang's ill-considered challenge may have ended the war prematurely, but it doesn't matter now. Countless souls have been fed to the hungering darkness. Though I cared nothing for the living, I did pity the Forsaken. For the great injustice that made them what they are. I understand the cruelty of fate better than anyone.
    But despite all I taught them, they stubbornly clung to hope. To life. They will learn the truth, along with all the rest.
    My bargain with Azshara will yet bear fruit. The armies of Azeroth will fight her master, and he will line their streets with corpses. In the end, he too will serve Death.
    Enough reflection. There are preparations to be made. Nothing lasts. When next you see me, you will understand.
    so exactly why i should be feel betrayed (as a forsaken/dk)? nathanos even warned me every single time that the missions would be rough as fuck for all bfa. and being in a suicide mission is something that i ever did before multiple times. damn, all wod is based on the initial suicide mission throught the portal.
    im not saying that you wont be right and i wont have to work with the traitors like nothing had happened. but for now at best this isnt hinted other than a generic and assumed "we are telling how you will should feel" without any organic storytelling.
    damn as a forsaken player i never had any problem with the idea of murdering all azeroth if necessary, the plague that i personally helped to develop was made in fact to annihilate any enemy would cross the forsaken's path in first place. even any forsaken npc in game (other than voss) never have these problems in first place.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Yeah I get it if we dont share your opinion we are "dense".
    No. The fact that after literally everything she has done throughout the novels (which are canon), questlines, cinematics etc. Being completely evil. The fact that you do not see this is what makes you dense.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-04-03 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    she didnt care about me to the point that she gave me an hearthstone to tell me



    so exactly why i should be feel betrayed (as a forsaken/dk)? nathanos even warned me every single time that the missions would be rough as fuck for all bfa. and being in a suicide mission is something that i ever did before multiple times. damn, all wod is based on the initial suicide mission throught the portal.
    im not saying that you wont be right and i wont have to work with the traitors like nothing had happened. but for now at best this isnt hinted other than a generic and assumed "we are telling how you will should feel" without any organic storytelling.
    damn as a forsaken player i never had any problem with the idea of murdering all azeroth if necessary, the plague that i personally helped to develop was made in fact to annihilate any enemy would cross the forsaken's path in first place. even any forsaken npc in game (other than voss) never have these problems in first place.
    That is the problem though. You can't play the villain. It's a fantasy game made for Good to defeat Evil in the end. Your character will be forced to go to the Shadowlands, do the Questline and possibly kill Sylvannas in the end on the questline or in a raid as a Boss. Warhammer on the other hand is perfect for that.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Warhammer on the other hand is perfect for that.
    Oh, you mean THIS Warhammer?



    Also, you keep saying this Warhammer thing, it's like you are trolling, i swear "Good kills Bad, you shoud feel this and that, btw play Warhammer"
    And you are setteling for the laziest type of story developement and that is alarming. Nothing we can do now, i guess, damage is already done. As with many other needlesly mangled pieces of lore to serve dubious gameplay functions. But we should raise concerns about lore handling, i think it's about time.

    Also, killing Sylvanas, for me it's like kiling Thrall, Malfuion, Tyrande or other WC3 heroes. Voljin and Cairne were a waste.
    Last edited by Necromind; 2020-04-04 at 01:40 AM.

  15. #415
    The Lightbringer Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    This to be honest. Alleria and Vereesa are hotter than High Elf Sylvanas.
    alleria maybe but not vereesa she isnt that great looking.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

    Duelingnexus name: Jaina1337
    Blizzard Battle Tag: Jaina1337#1396

  16. #416
    Most of this conversation misses the point. Yes, Sylvanas has always been evil but that's not the issue. She was never a Saturday morning cartoon villain who wants to "kill hope", or even a "schemes within schemes" villain, just a very ruthless person who stayed in the shadows.

    The plot device that "the more people die the more power she gets!" is a very odd and artificial way of trying to change her motivations. It's also redundant because she already has a reason to kill people, namely so that she can raise them as Forsaken.

    Point is, it doesn't matter whether she was always evil -- the clumsy and terrible writing she got in BFA would have ruined any character (and did ruin several others).
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  17. #417
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Meanwhile joining an omnicidal Fel cult that is on a rampage across all realities that killed more people than all Sylvanases from all realities combined lands you in Revendreth. And the stated goal of the Blight was never to kill everything, only the Scourge (for being Scourge) and the humans (for spawning Arthas).
    What kinda ffing blight kills ONLY scourge undead, and humans.
    but not forsaken undead and orcs/tauren/etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    Most of this conversation misses the point. Yes, Sylvanas has always been evil but that's not the issue. She was never a Saturday morning cartoon villain who wants to "kill hope", or even a "schemes within schemes" villain, just a very ruthless person who stayed in the shadows.

    The plot device that "the more people die the more power she gets!" is a very odd and artificial way of trying to change her motivations. It's also redundant because she already has a reason to kill people, namely so that she can raise them as Forsaken.

    Point is, it doesn't matter whether she was always evil -- the clumsy and terrible writing she got in BFA would have ruined any character (and did ruin several others).
    Define "morning cartoon villains", because smiling when someone is melting in front of you or saying stuff like "Let the gilneans enjoy their small victory, not even their bones will remain by tomorrow" is very morning cartoon villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    Oh, you mean THIS Warhammer?



    Also, you keep saying this Warhammer thing, it's like you are trolling, i swear "Good kills Bad, you shoud feel this and that, btw play Warhammer"
    And you are setteling for the laziest type of story developement and that is alarming. Nothing we can do now, i guess, damage is already done. As with many other needlesly mangled pieces of lore to serve dubious gameplay functions. But we should raise concerns about lore handling, i think it's about time.

    Also, killing Sylvanas, for me it's like kiling Thrall, Malfuion, Tyrande or other WC3 heroes. Voljin and Cairne were a waste.
    So like killing Arthas, Deathwing, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and any other WC3 villain?
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-04-04 at 09:41 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    Oh, you mean THIS Warhammer?



    Also, you keep saying this Warhammer thing, it's like you are trolling, i swear "Good kills Bad, you shoud feel this and that, btw play Warhammer"
    And you are setteling for the laziest type of story developement and that is alarming. Nothing we can do now, i guess, damage is already done. As with many other needlesly mangled pieces of lore to serve dubious gameplay functions. But we should raise concerns about lore handling, i think it's about time.

    Also, killing Sylvanas, for me it's like kiling Thrall, Malfuion, Tyrande or other WC3 heroes. Voljin and Cairne were a waste.
    On the contrary friend. I am serious. Warhammer Online who now has been revived has the story for someone who likes to play Super Good Faction vs Evil Faction cause both factions there are fanatical to the bone. Even the Good Order Faction has the Motto Death to the Heretic, the Mutant, the Unclean. You purge whole families of villains without thinking if they have good motives behind. Also yes I agree that we should raise Lore Concerns. Lore Concerns where the whole lore was butchered in order for two Warchiefs to even stand a chance to do what they did. Lore that made the Alliance lawful stupid and the Neutral Factions neutral stupid. I don't see why Sylvannas has to escape penalties when other Heroes and Villains couldn't and dissapeared from the face of the story.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    What kinda ffing blight kills ONLY scourge undead, and humans.
    but not forsaken undead and orcs/tauren/etc.
    I think that Blizzard retconned the retcon, because at first, the blight killed everyone save - perhaps - Forsaken.

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