Page 25 of 51 FirstFirst ...
15
23
24
25
26
27
35
... LastLast
  1. #481
    I mean it should be obvious at this point that Sylvanas will play the same role Garrosh had in WoD. So it's not really surprising that Blizzard are blunt about her being a villain in their blogs.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I mean it should be obvious at this point that Sylvanas will play the same role Garrosh had in WoD. So it's not really surprising that Blizzard are blunt about her being a villain in their blogs.
    Calling it now: Rematch Mak'gora with Saurfang in the Shadowlands who is now a hulking Abomination upgraded by the Necrolords. He grabs her in a giant fist made of flesh and bones and she shouts in despair: "I trusted you! You made me what I am!"

    And he flattens her with a giant club.

    That's some "assassination" I would watch on loop.

    ...

    I'll show myself out.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Calling it now: Rematch Mak'gora with Saurfang in the Shadowlands who is now a hulking Abomination upgraded by the Necrolords. He grabs her in a giant fist made of flesh and bones and she shouts in despair: "I trusted you! You made me what I am!"

    And he flattens her with a giant club.

    That's some "assassination" I would watch on loop.

    ...

    I'll show myself out.
    If that happened, the QQ of her fanboys would be so precious.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    If that happened, the QQ of her fanboys would be so precious.
    Actually her fanboys will QQ anyway no matter what death she has. They are already doing that now that they know her end is inevitable. Haven't we heard many times now how the last interesting character dies and suddenly every other character is automatically bland or too peaceful?

  5. #485
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Burned Teldrassil, cooking up tasty delicacies with all the elven fat I can gather
    Posts
    13,693
    More than character assassination, the more annoying thing about her it's the overabundant obscurity regarding her motives and overall "plan", a plan that is looking more and more overbloated and way beyond the scope of a character like Sylvanas was probably meant to be to begin with. In a different yet vaguely similar way the developers did the same with Jaina before BfA, in fact Sylvanas looks kind of schizophrenic since the developers sometimes try to even make you simpathyze with her and many other times seem to try very hard to depict her as THE villain of the story instead. It's really weird and the already mentioned obscurity over her plan and motives makes it even weirder.

    I guess Shadowlands should shed some light over all of that, even though I suspect it would either fail to do that or outright butcher Sylvanas as a character for good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  6. #486
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    5,610
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Blizz has a habit of writing terrible flat villains.
    I always thought that Deathwing had been the worst villain ever written by Blizz... until now. At least DW wasn't a screeching, cringeworthy Mary Sue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    her end is inevitable.
    With Danuser leading the writing team, please allow me to doubt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  7. #487
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,010
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I always thought that Deathwing had been the worst villain ever written by Blizz... until now. At least DW wasn't a screeching, cringeworthy Mary Sue.
    Pre-Cata Deathwing was an actually an interesting villain - Machiavellian, intelligent, and capable of long-term and cunning plans. A far cry from the Deathwing we see in Cata, who while more personally powerful is also another slavering maniac with a monomaniacal focus on destruction.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Actually her fanboys will QQ anyway no matter what death she has. They are already doing that now that they know her end is inevitable. Haven't we heard many times now how the last interesting character dies and suddenly every other character is automatically bland or too peaceful?
    Yeah... funnily enough she was never that interesting in the first place. She has been a stale character since Cataclysm. At least Garrosh evolved throughout the expansions, Sylvanas has literally been Lich King 2.0 since Cata.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  9. #489
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    5,610
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Pre-Cata Deathwing was an actually an interesting villain - Machiavellian, intelligent, and capable of long-term and cunning plans. A far cry from the Deathwing we see in Cata, who while more personally powerful is also another slavering maniac with a monomaniacal focus on destruction.
    You're right. I meant Cata DW, who btw also got completely thrashed as a villain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    "Before you can help them—and make them take your warnings of Sylvanas and the horrible truth of the Maw seriously—you must prove your worthiness as an aspirant and overcome all trials to earn your Kyrian wings by Ascending."

    Bit from recent blog post that just further puts Sylvanas in villain territory.
    The Danuser-Golden writing team is just so laughably wacko.

    Sylvanas loyalists are now supposed to accept her as a straight-out villain...because she talked some random smack in front of Orgrimmar?

    This is why I don't pay attention to WOW lore anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  11. #491
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,010
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    The Danuser-Golden writing team is just so laughably wacko.

    Sylvanas loyalists are now supposed to accept her as a straight-out villain...because she talked some random smack in front of Orgrimmar?

    This is why I don't pay attention to WOW lore anymore.
    The "random smack" in question here was her basically throwing the entire Horde, even her own Forsaken, under the proverbial bus - then finding out the bus was quite literal as she planned and still plans to feed everyone to the Maw.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The "random smack" in question here was her basically throwing the entire Horde, even her own Forsaken, under the proverbial bus - then finding out the bus was quite literal as she planned and still plans to feed everyone to the Maw.
    I mean, it's a nonsensical scene from top to bottom, from the question of how Saurfang could predict what her reaction would be ("or perhaps...only one" makes it clear that the mak'gora is not just a deathwish on his part) to Sylvanas's instant willingness to just fold all the cards and fly away because she made an eyebrow-raising comment, to the fact that the people on the wall were far out of earshot and wouldn't have heard her.

    You may say it's a really bad comment, but it's her talking smack directly to Saurfang, a traitor -- "your Horde", etc. Realistically (and again, no one but the people in her immediate vicinity would even have heard her) it would not have caused her Forsaken loyalists to suddenly see her as a villain.

    But I don't want to discuss that scene because it's sludge not worth scrutiny. I just meant that it's funny that the loyalist players have stuck with her despite genocides and plague bombs yet the writers think that a moment of smack talk aimed at a traitor would suddenly make them change their minds. Especially her Forsaken, to whom the orcish MUH HONORZ stuff is meaningless.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  13. #493
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,010
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    I mean, it's a nonsensical scene from top to bottom, from the question of how Saurfang could predict what her reaction would be ("or perhaps...only one" makes it clear that the mak'gora is not just a deathwish on his part) to Sylvanas's instant willingness to just fold all the cards and fly away because she made an eyebrow-raising comment, to the fact that the people on the wall were far out of earshot and wouldn't have heard her.
    I think Saurfang's goal was to sacrifice himself to rouse the Horde to its better self, hoping against hope that the Horde would see Sylvanas' cruel and dishonorable conduct and reject her accordingly - Sylvanas sabotaging herself in her anger was a bonus, and Saurfang's triumphant smirk in that moment shows it. I don't think he planned that by any means, but it was his hope Sylvanas would reveal something of her true nature (which it so happens she did in spades).

    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    You may say it's a really bad comment, but it's her talking smack directly to Saurfang, a traitor -- "your Horde", etc. Realistically (and again, no one but the people in her immediate vicinity would even have heard her) it would not have caused her Forsaken loyalists to suddenly see her as a villain.
    People were all along the battlements of Orgrimmar, within easy earshot of the battle (and Sylvanas doesn't whisper it or anything like that). Her own standard-bearer is also right there, and her side-eye to Sylvanas shows that her comment wasn't just received as smack-talk to Saurfang. The words cut pretty deep, especially to the Forsaken who already deep down internalize a fear that they are nothing as mere undead shades of their lives. I think support for Sylvanas was already balanced pretty precariously, and this was just a tipping point for many (though not all).

    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    But I don't want to discuss that scene because it's sludge not worth scrutiny. I just meant that it's funny that the loyalist players have stuck with her despite genocides and plague bombs yet the writers think that a moment of smack talk aimed at a traitor would suddenly make them change their minds. Especially her Forsaken, to whom the orcish MUH HONORZ stuff is meaningless.
    Orcish honor doesn't matter to the Forsaken, but Sylvanas' patronage and the idea that she fights on their behalf certainly does. When you rule by force of personality, practically in the manner of a cult, having your true thoughts unveiled to your worshipers can cause some real damage.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    People were all along the battlements of Orgrimmar, within easy earshot of the battle (and Sylvanas doesn't whisper it or anything like that).
    The situation looked similar to if she were down on a football field and the people on the wall were up on high seating. Without megaphones/sound systems, you can't hear someone muttering a monologue at that distance. Yes, the bannerbearer heard, and so did Thrall and Anduin. But the banner-bearer saying this is unlikely to result in a miraculous political swerve like what's shown in the cutscene (even if they don't succeed at silencing the bannerbearer first), and Thrall or Anduin saying it is easily dismissable as propaganda.

    I think support for Sylvanas was already balanced pretty precariously, and this was just a tipping point for many (though not all).
    And that's how they tried to paint it, with BtS suddenly announcing that Sylvanas runs a tyrannical security state etc etc. What it runs counter to is all the lore we had prior to BFA.

    When you rule by force of personality, practically in the manner of a cult, having your true thoughts unveiled to your worshipers can cause some real damage.
    IRL politics can provide some counter-examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  15. #495
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,010
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    The situation looked similar to if she were down on a football field and the people on the wall were up on high seating. Without megaphones/sound systems, you can't hear someone muttering a monologue at that distance. Yes, the bannerbearer heard, and so did Thrall and Anduin. But the banner-bearer saying this is unlikely to result in a miraculous political swerve like what's shown in the cutscene (even if they don't succeed at silencing the bannerbearer first), and Thrall or Anduin saying it is easily dismissable as propaganda.
    She's pretty far from "muttering," and it's later obvious that the people on the battlements heard her well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    And that's how they tried to paint it, with BtS suddenly announcing that Sylvanas runs a tyrannical security state etc etc. What it runs counter to is all the lore we had prior to BFA.
    "Before the Storm" occurs well before BfA even begins, and her Mak'gora with Saurfang is after a long and grueling war spanning the face of Azeroth. It's an arc of descent we see several times - from 8.1 to 8.1.5 to 8.2 and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    IRL politics can provide some counter-examples.
    Unfortunately so, but a few exceptions don't really undermine the rule. Many people have been set back or even ruined by supplying the unvarnished truth in a moment of anger or fit of pique.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  16. #496
    The people who throw the biggest tantrums and cry the loudest are Sylvie haters. Everything she does, they take very personally. She invokes some really violent reactions, which is hilarious to me. I meanwhile, will be enjoying the show and you won't hear a peep from me when they kill her off. To the naysayers, refer to my avatar.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    The people who throw the biggest tantrums and cry the loudest are Sylvie haters. Everything she does, they take very personally. She invokes some really violent reactions, which is hilarious to me. I meanwhile, will be enjoying the show and you won't hear a peep from me when they kill her off. To the naysayers, refer to my avatar.
    Okay.

    /10chars
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  18. #498
    Mechagnome Ilyiana's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Wherever Azshara's living
    Posts
    538
    firstly, go through this thread and see how many times sylvanas is called a bitch. then look at how many times garrosh is called something derogatory. this is why we need feminism.

    second, it was clear as day to me that she snapped at saurfang because he landed a hit on her, and any harm to her body absolutely terrifies her. and that cinematic isn't her talking smack to him, it's her literally shouting "f the horde and all of you." they showed enough times that people were questioning her actions but still following her orders, because they thought she was leading them to a secure future for the horde. once they hear that she doesn't care at all about the horde's future, that's it for them.
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...llbane/Ilyiana
    Professional glass cannon since 2004.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Calling it now: Rematch Mak'gora with Saurfang in the Shadowlands who is now a hulking Abomination upgraded by the Necrolords. He grabs her in a giant fist made of flesh and bones and she shouts in despair: "I trusted you! You made me what I am!"

    And he flattens her with a giant club.

    That's some "assassination" I would watch on loop.

    ...

    I'll show myself out.
    If there's one character I really hope we don't meet it's Saurfang, let that guy rest; it's his whole thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyiana View Post
    firstly, go through this thread and see how many times sylvanas is called a bitch. then look at how many times garrosh is called something derogatory. this is why we need feminism.
    Speaking of, one thing I do want is Ghost-Garrosh and a callback to this moment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  20. #500
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    27,010
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    If there's one character I really hope we don't meet it's Saurfang, let that guy rest, it's his whole thing.
    I'm expecting we'll meet him - but I do hope it's only at a cameo level and he doesn't have a really significant role to play. I like Saurfang as a character, but I think he's had his day and then some.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •