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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Yes cause we all know only alliance fan boys think torturing and experimenting on captured soldiers and civilians. Men, woman, and children is evil. Pfft. Alliance fanboys
    What civilians and what children? The most we've ever got was a captured militia member, who at that point was no longer a civilian because of the whole militia bit. Who was very much not a child.


    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    That seems to be quite the comprehensive list!

    Now, would you be capable of doing the same for the Horde?
    Except @matrix123mko's list isn't comprehensive even when it comes to Alliance's unjustified attacks on the Goblins alone (they seem not to like green short folks), let alone all of their things.


    Quote Originally Posted by bowlink View Post
    The alliance is atleast trying to do better. that Genn got of with a light scolding for stomheim is wrong ill grant you, how ever we never get this type of internal conflict because the spotlight is always on the fucking horde. if the alliance wins a decisive batttle we are told never shown. Da'zar a lor included. this also has the side effect that every alliance worth their salt always waits for the other shoe to drop when the devs decide to throw us a bone.

    The horde Never tried to do better up untill recently when they revoked the Warchief title. you can notice that in the way NPC's speak. and i mean the soldiers and plebs in the ranks. Alliance NPC's almost always talk in a defensive or reactive manner. IE we are eather Defending or reacting to something.
    The Alliance isn't trying anything. It pulls the act of instigating conflict with the Horde again and again and again and the story doesn't even address it. You don't get such internal conflict because the writers constantly brush everything questionable the Alliance has done under the carpet while continuing to write stories with the Alliance doing questionable things (instead of doing the logical choice in light of their desire to pretend the Alliance is morally flawless and not write them doing questionable things in the first place).

    Just look at what you said. The Horde did "try to be better" by revoking the Warchief title. When has the Alliance done anything of the sorts? What protective measures has it taken to prevent another idiot like Genn from bending the shit out of Anduin's orders and bombarding Horde forces while hidden from the view in the clouds? What protective measures did it take to prevent Tyrande from acting out when she has already given Anduin more than enough reasons to suspect she will try to do so?


    Quote Originally Posted by bowlink View Post
    Horde NPC's allways talk Alliance dog this Alliance pigs that. im gonna go over there to that land that doesn't belong to me and take it splitting as mutch skulls to do so. The Horde is the Instigator every F'fing time.
    The Dwarves alone crawled over to three different Horde zones because they felt entitled to dig for artifacts in there. One of those areas was right on the doorstep of the goddamn Horde capital city of Thunder Bluff. There are Alliance forces in Durotar as well. Meanwhile you have zero Horde presence in any Alliance starting zone. Chronicle v3 flat out states that Alliance declared the previous faction war, which they did because Varian hated the Orcs as per his declaration of war (and they attacked the Forsaken in Howling Fjords even before that). The Alliance restarted that war as Theramore's invasion of the Barrens happened prior to the Horde's invasion of Ashenvale. Alliance started the most recent conflict in Stormheim (the faction fighting continued throughout Legion and the factions needed a ceasefire to even make the Gathering happen even though it was happening on neutral territory).

    The stale old tale of Alliance being this poor, oppressed and victimized reacting force has been nothing more than a myth since as early as Vanilla. And Alliance fans constantly complaining about that while they are deliberately ignoring Alliance's own story that shows how it's not the case is all sorts of weird. It's almost as if you were complaining just for the sake of complaining and deliberately ignoring everything that could get in the way of said complaining. Don't want to be the reactive force? All you need to do is to start paying attention. You don't even need to wait for a new expansion or petition Blizzard to write different stories. They already wrote the stories that you supposedly want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    are you really using kolthira for something other than a (should be) rightful execution of a incompetent traitor that let tons of forsaken die for his friendship with an enemy?
    Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat; that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

    BFA did not change Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-03-28 at 03:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    Didn't read the whole thread (because who does that?) but it just seems like you're just making excuses for Sylvanas. She's been a villain since Classic, but it really became prominent in Cata, when she killed the humans of Silverpine and forcefully turned them into forsaken. She's literally the Lich King 2.0, heck she even admitted that.
    That "admission" was her trolling Garrosh. Which somehow even he was able to get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    Dalaran was not a massacre, Jaina just imprisoned the majority of the Sunreavers (for a very good reason) and killed the ones that resisted.
    Jaina's reason was everything but good and the Purge of Dalaran was portrayed as rather messy in the later novels.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    When Sargeras stabbed Silithus, the Alliance's response was to send Druids and Priestesses to investigate and possible heal the area, while the Horde only thought of how it could benefit them (surprise, surprise).
    Which is Horde's prerogative as Alliance is not its boss and has zero authority to tell them how the Horde should react to giant swords.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    - Vowed to exterminate the gilnean people;
    She vowed to exterminate the Gilneans so much she led them flee with the Night Elves and then when she had GLF on its knees instead of wiping them out she merely forced their surrender. In other words, not really.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    - Blamed the fucking Lich King for creating "weak death knights" and vowed to correct his mistakes by "perfecting" Koltira.
    Even other Death Knights were not exactly favorable towards Koltira in their starting questline.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat, that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

    BFA did not change Sylvanas.
    Zelling was indeed a traitor and Sylvanas had an agent helping Baine and Zelling out, making a confession absolutely redundant. Stellar point you got here. And BfA alone couldn't stay consistent on something as crucial to a character as Sylvanas' motivations, so your claim that BfA did not change Sylvanas remains unconvincing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sounds pretty comparable to "oh, Zelling was just an evil, evil traitor for piloting that boat; that totally justified Sylvanas murdering him to intimidate the other Horde leaders without even a confession."

    BFA did not change Sylvanas.
    uhm yes? isnt like i hadnt reported him after that disgusting questline

  5. #65
    I am very amused when someone tries to justify Sylvanas, although even before the Cataclysm she was so vicious that the Arbiter sent her to the Maw. I mean, not even Revendreth, but in the Maw. And this was BEFORE the Cataclysm, before the Forsaken began to massively use blight, before she committed war for her own benefit, before she committed genocide.

  6. #66
    speaking of Maw, what is her goal anyway??? does she suffer from Curse of Contradictions like Zeref from Fairy Tail???

    so she went to hell because she was bad, saw how terrible it is and now she wants to make us all completely immortal so that we don't suffer the same fate as her???

    hello, not everyone is bad.

    those who are bad deserve to be punished, especially those who are killer maniacs.

  7. #67
    Sylvanas was never a good person and she was presented more as a psychopathic, self-serving crone than anybody remotely benevolent, even to the forsaken.

    Get over it already.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except @matrix123mko's list isn't comprehensive even when it comes to Alliance's unjustified attacks on the Goblins alone (they seem not to like green short folks), let alone all of their things.
    Well, that is why I said it seemed like a comprehensive list. Obviously, I don't keep an as exhaustive account of the Alliance's perceived atrocities as you do.

    I wonder, would you actually be able to list them all out yourself? I understand if you don't have the time or patience for it, but it might come in handy in the future; as a sort of "master list" to refer back to, when need be.
    #RememberTeldrassil
    Because goodness knows Blizzard would rather people forget about the Night Elves entirely.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That "admission" was her trolling Garrosh. Which somehow even he was able to get.
    Even if it was "trolling" my point still stands. Killing humans and raising them as undeath soldiers is exactly what Arthas did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Jaina's reason was everything but good and the Purge of Dalaran was portrayed as rather messy in the later novels.
    She already got backstabbed by the Horde in Theramore, and again in Dalaran. If anything, blame Vereesa and the Silver Covenant. At least Jaina was only killing the ones that resisted and imprisoned the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Which is Horde's prerogative as Alliance is not its boss and has zero authority to tell them how the Horde should react to giant swords.
    Well not then, but now they do. Also the Explorer's League arrived in Silithus first and they were attacked by Bilgewater Goblins. So yes, the killing of those miners was justified.

  10. #70
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    she better not get killed off or there wont be no more good owmen lore characters on horde.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

    Duelingnexus name: Jaina1337
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Sylvanas was never a good person and she was presented more as a psychopathic, self-serving crone than anybody remotely benevolent, even to the forsaken.

    Get over it already.
    But she's hot so she must be good.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally?
    1. If she's not a villain and none of it's her fault, why would she be tortured for eternity?

    2. She's literally died twice since Arthas turned her.

  13. #73
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    speaking of Maw, what is her goal anyway??? does she suffer from Curse of Contradictions like Zeref from Fairy Tail???

    so she went to hell because she was bad, saw how terrible it is and now she wants to make us all completely immortal so that we don't suffer the same fate as her???

    hello, not everyone is bad.

    those who are bad deserve to be punished, especially those who are killer maniacs.
    She is a nihilist who believes it is futile to cling to hope and to life, so she wants to kill everyone. Her intentions are to "set everyone free from the shackles of mortality" by having Death rule over a dead world. She's become just as twisted as Arthas, as was established back in Cataclysm. The only difference is that Arthas wanted to kill everyone to unite the world against the Old Gods and Legion, whereas Sylvanas wants to kill everyone simply because she is a nihilist.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 05:42 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  14. #74
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Nope its an opinion, a dumb one in your eyes but not wrong in any means.
    "Torturing women and children civilians is not evil."
    Yeah a dumb. And wrong opinion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Bael'dun is built on tauren village that contained children. Alliance also burn vulpera carriages, which likely contain children, as they are rarely depicted walking alongside adults.

    As for torture, it is not only Horde that uses prisoners for target practice.
    1. "They must have killed children! We don't see it but they had to have!" No.
    2." They but the carriages!" After making sure to scare everyone off. Plus the carriages are supply carriages, people don't go in those... Nor do many races stuff their kids in with piles of boxes filled with explosives and weapons.

    And a picture with literally 0 context.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    She is a nihilist who believes it is futile to cling to hope and to life, so she wants to kill everyone. Her intentions are to "set everyone free from the shackles of mortality" by having Death rule over a dead world. She's become just as twisted as Arthas. The only difference is that Arthas wanted to kill everyone to unite the world against the Old Gods and Legion, whereas Sylvanas wants to kill everyone simply because she is a nihilist.
    How do you know what her motives are when Blizzard is keeping everything about the Shadowlands and the Jailer close to their chest?

    Don't you think the morality of death would be altered by the clear and explicit existence of souls and an afterlife plane? While we don't know much about how the Shadowlands work yet, we can infer some pretty concerning things from previous lore:

    - Living being have souls that end up somewhere after they die.
    - Souls, however, are NOT eternal; they can be consumed by demons to power fel magic or by void beings such as corrupted Na'aru. If your soul is destroyed, there is no afterlife, you are just gone, as is the case with Varian.
    - Even if your soul ends up in WoW's version of Heaven, it is NOT safe there. Anyone with middling necromantic powers can yoink it back into a corpse, not just immediately, as we saw with Arthas and Sylvanas, but even years or decades later, as seen with the Four Horsemen raised by the DK player or Derek Proudmoore raised by one of the val'kyr.
    - The afterlife plane itself is subject to major upsets, such as the recent development of every soul getting to the Maw.

    Under these circumstances, would you be content with ignorance and hope with regards to the afterlife? Or would you try to do something to fix Death so that you know that your soul - and everyone else's - will be safe for the eternity to come? And if doing so required you to get a great deal of people killed quickly, well... they would have died anyway eventually, and then their souls would have been fucked. How is this morally different from Illidan "forcing fate's hand" so we could have a decisive battle with the Legion? Surely a lot of people died because he left that portal to Argus opened, and they didn't choose to sacrifice themselves... Yet, even Velen treats Illidan like a hero.

    Of course, we can't say with any certainty that Blizzard is planning to give Sylvanas a redeeming motivation. They seem to be pissing the story in the wind these days, so I expect a lot of retcons and intricate backwards rationalizations will go into justifying whatever they decide to do next. Still, the mechanics of the Shadowlands, whatever they may be, should raise some complex philosophical questions about the ethics of death and afterlife in WoW. It will be pretty much the worst outcome possible if they just expect us to ignore them and treat the expansion like a bunch of cool new zones and nothing more, like we did with Draenor and alternate universes + time travel.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    she better not get killed off or there wont be no more good owmen lore characters on horde.
    Avatar checks out.

  17. #77
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    speaking of Maw, what is her goal anyway??? does she suffer from Curse of Contradictions like Zeref from Fairy Tail???

    so she went to hell because she was bad, saw how terrible it is and now she wants to make us all completely immortal so that we don't suffer the same fate as her???

    hello, not everyone is bad.

    those who are bad deserve to be punished, especially those who are killer maniacs.
    Her goal is to never die, and to end all life it's that simple. I don't see how it's confusing as was said "you are at war with the living."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    Dark? Yes. Ruthless? Yes. An "the ends justify the means" character? Yes. Full blown psychopathically evil? Not until the trainwreck that constitutes the "lore" of BFA
    She was torturing and experimenting on civilians since vanilla. Yes. Psychopathic ally evil. Stop pretending her and her undead have been perfect faries till now

    But literally moments after the Lich King. Died. And she started comparing herself to him. 10 years later maybe. Seriously?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "Torturing women and children civilians is not evil."
    Yeah a dumb. And wrong opinion.
    i mean, for us there is a clear motivation because women and children are viewed differently (and mostly because empathy). but for undeads, even ignoring all the different emotional behaviour, why it should still be true? they dont have children, they arent breaking any taboo and effectively they havent any necessity to spare them to expect the same from the enemies. damn, valkyries (their version of moms) are always focused. is still "evil" considering all these differencies?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Her goal is to never die, and to end all life it's that simple. I don't see how it's confusing as was said "you are at war with the living."
    What insight does Delaryn have into Sylvanas's motivations at that point though? She is her foe and her victim - it's natural for her to assume the worst, but that doesn't mean she is correct. Not that I'd put it beneath Blizzard to give us a character's thoughts through the words of a different character who doesn't really know them well, but that would be pretty shitty writing, and it's rude of you to assume they're not capable of more... ^^

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Her goal is to never die, and to end all life it's that simple. I don't see how it's confusing as was said "you are at war with the living."
    Well, I mean.. I know she said she wanted to kill everyone, but I'm sure what she really meant was that she wants to throw the whole world a birthday party! I-I know she really means well! She has to!

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