Page 5 of 51 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
15
... LastLast
  1. #81
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    21,104
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    i mean, for us there is a clear motivation because women and children are viewed differently (and mostly because empathy). but for undeads, even ignoring all the different emotional behaviour, why it should still be true? they dont have children, they arent breaking any taboo and effectively they havent any necessity to spare them to expect the same from the enemies. damn, valkyries (their version of moms) are always focused. is still "evil" considering all these differencies?
    "They are undead they don't get the concept of..."
    You fucking serious? They are undead not aliens. They still know how fucking humanity works my dude. And they know you don't do that shit. But did it and hid it from the other factions cause they knew it was wrong.

    You serious? "Undead don't have children" holy fuck. I don't have kids so if I go murder kids that's fine cause I don't get the concept of killing kids is wrong?

    They were mortal, some of them were kids. Some of them had kids. Some of them were women. And some of them had wives. Again these are people raised into undeath, not aliens who see a smaller human and go "oh just a small person" the level of stretching here to simp for sylvanas and her scourge 2.0 is hilarious.

  2. #82
    Sylvanas was Grey before Cataclysm. She was a dark character bent on vengeance while protecting her similar and hating her curse and what had happened to her.
    Cata turned her Black when she "embraced" her curse and started turning others into Undead while slaughtering innocents left and right.

    The moment that happened there was no doubt about the fact that she's a villain.
    Last edited by Gurluas; 2020-03-28 at 07:15 PM.

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    21,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    What insight does Delaryn have into Sylvanas's motivations at that point though? She is her foe and her victim - it's natural for her to assume the worst, but that doesn't mean she is correct. Not that I'd put it beneath Blizzard to give us a character's thoughts through the words of a different character who doesn't really know them well, but that would be pretty shitty writing, and it's rude of you to assume they're not capable of more... ^^
    Idk if you know. But a person having simple motives it not shitty writing. Just like a major life charecter just dying outta no where is not shitty writing. It's called realistic writing. Sometimes people die for stupid reasons. Some times people make stupid choices. And some times a women who had everything taken from her, wants to take everything from everything else. Pair that with her being scared of the maw, therefore she wants to be immortal.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Idk if you know. But a person having simple motives it not shitty writing. Just like a major life charecter just dying outta no where is not shitty writing. It's called realistic writing. Sometimes people die for stupid reasons. Some times people make stupid choices. And some times a women who had everything taken from her, wants to take everything from everything else. Pair that with her being scared of the maw, therefore she wants to be immortal.
    It's not shitty writing for a character to have simple motivations, no (as long as they make sense in context, ofc).

    It's shitty writing to have a third party with no insight express those motives instead of the actual character, or someone close to them, just because you can't think of a better way to communicate them to the player. You quoted Delaryn as if her line was 100% positive proof of what Sylvanas is after, when if the writing is any good, it shouldn't be. That line only tells us what Delaryn thinks Sylvanas is after.

  5. #85
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    7,884
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Full blown psychopathically evil? Yes.

    - Ordered Varimathras to wipe out the "human infestation" in Hillsbrad (i.e. mostly refugees fleeing from the Scourge);
    - Sadistically smiled when two people melted due to the blight;
    - Vowed to exterminate the gilnean people;
    - Blamed the fucking Lich King for creating "weak death knights" and vowed to correct his mistakes by "perfecting" Koltira.
    Some people just can't handle the truth, that their best girl isn't the innocent flower that they want her to be.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "They are undead they don't get the concept of..."
    You fucking serious? They are undead not aliens. They still know how fucking humanity works my dude. And they know you don't do that shit. But did it and hid it from the other factions cause they knew it was wrong.

    You serious? "Undead don't have children" holy fuck. I don't have kids so if I go murder kids that's fine cause I don't get the concept of killing kids is wrong?

    They were mortal, some of them were kids. Some of them had kids. Some of them were women. And some of them had wives. Again these are people raised into undeath, not aliens who see a smaller human and go "oh just a small person" the level of stretching here to simp for sylvanas and her scourge 2.0 is hilarious.
    so basically every fucking single race of warcraft is guilty as the forsaken for all the genocide's quests during levelling? i mean, im ok with this vision, and this is the main reason because for me "genocide is bad" is a shitty joke in wacraft, but isnt exacly a motivation to condemn more the forsakens.
    and then yes, surely they hide always their shit, but to avoid annoying consequence by the other races, not because they share their vision of evilness. damn even the argent crusade finklestein doesnt give a fuck like the other undeads.

    so exactly why for an undead killing a child should be bad? because it make his enemy more sad than usual? thats all i can rp to motivate your stance, but still isnt evil in any sense.

    and be serious, having a perfectly functional race/society as the forsakens without the concept of children isnt comparable with the decision of an individual. our society still need children, our biology still force us to protect our offspring. forsakens dont have any of that.
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2020-03-28 at 06:46 PM.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "Torturing women and children civilians is not evil."
    Yeah a dumb. And wrong opinion.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I never said those things, now you're reaching.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Pair that with her being scared of the maw, therefore she wants to be immortal.
    she is immortal though.

    she should just stop being a Warbringer so that she wouldn't be in any danger of being killed.

  9. #89
    She is a villain and has been one for some time, but she used to be a good one, with interesting character dynamics and goals. She was great in Cataclysm, looking for ways to prolongue her existence and going in clearly evil directions while trying to hide or justify her actions.

    I wish I had appreciated it more at the time, before they put her in a position that clearly didn't fit her and got rid of everything enjoyable about her character to create a generic and uninspired saturday morning antagonist with a vague "mysterious" master plan.

  10. #90
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    2,981
    Oh man... One of these threads
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    she should just stop being a Warbringer so that she wouldn't be in any danger of being killed.
    Back before the cosmic retcon to her motivations, I never did understand how picking a fight with the Alliance, and possibly alienating certain elements of Horde, was supposed to keep her safe from WarCraft Hell.
    #RememberTeldrassil
    Because goodness knows Blizzard would rather people forget about the Night Elves entirely.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Oh man... One of these threads
    They never get old, do they?

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    2,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    They never get old, do they?
    They are kinda fun. Specially to quote the kind of people that claim that 'killing children is ok because undead'
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  14. #94
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Telogrus Rift
    Posts
    5,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    How do you know what her motives are when Blizzard is keeping everything about the Shadowlands and the Jailer close to their chest?

    Don't you think the morality of death would be altered by the clear and explicit existence of souls and an afterlife plane? While we don't know much about how the Shadowlands work yet, we can infer some pretty concerning things from previous lore:

    - Living being have souls that end up somewhere after they die.
    - Souls, however, are NOT eternal; they can be consumed by demons to power fel magic or by void beings such as corrupted Na'aru. If your soul is destroyed, there is no afterlife, you are just gone, as is the case with Varian.
    - Even if your soul ends up in WoW's version of Heaven, it is NOT safe there. Anyone with middling necromantic powers can yoink it back into a corpse, not just immediately, as we saw with Arthas and Sylvanas, but even years or decades later, as seen with the Four Horsemen raised by the DK player or Derek Proudmoore raised by one of the val'kyr.
    - The afterlife plane itself is subject to major upsets, such as the recent development of every soul getting to the Maw.

    Under these circumstances, would you be content with ignorance and hope with regards to the afterlife? Or would you try to do something to fix Death so that you know that your soul - and everyone else's - will be safe for the eternity to come? And if doing so required you to get a great deal of people killed quickly, well... they would have died anyway eventually, and then their souls would have been fucked. How is this morally different from Illidan "forcing fate's hand" so we could have a decisive battle with the Legion? Surely a lot of people died because he left that portal to Argus opened, and they didn't choose to sacrifice themselves... Yet, even Velen treats Illidan like a hero.

    Of course, we can't say with any certainty that Blizzard is planning to give Sylvanas a redeeming motivation. They seem to be pissing the story in the wind these days, so I expect a lot of retcons and intricate backwards rationalizations will go into justifying whatever they decide to do next. Still, the mechanics of the Shadowlands, whatever they may be, should raise some complex philosophical questions about the ethics of death and afterlife in WoW. It will be pretty much the worst outcome possible if they just expect us to ignore them and treat the expansion like a bunch of cool new zones and nothing more, like we did with Draenor and alternate universes + time travel.
    We already know what her motives are. We've known that since Three Sisters comic:

    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    Back before the cosmic retcon to her motivations, I never did understand how picking a fight with the Alliance, and possibly alienating certain elements of Horde, was supposed to keep her safe from WarCraft Hell.
    The attack on Gilneas was ordered by Garrosh. The Forsaken's position in the Horde was tenuous due to the Wrathgate incident, so they would have been kicked out or outright destroyed if they refused. Considering that Genn wanted the entire Orc population genocided - he originally left the Alliance because he didn't want to pay for the internment camp - closed his gates to the people of Lordaeron during the Scourge and Legion invasion, contributing nothing, and then unleashed the plague of Worgen in Silverpine, causing tons of issue for the Forsaken, I had zero sympathy for him and his people as a Horde player. Would have loved to hate the guy, but Blizzard has since whitewashed him.

    The conflict in the Plaguelands was the result of Varian shipping off his poor and destitute citizens to colonize the place (not a very safe option for them, but he solved his vagrant problems at home - which was fueling the Defias with recruits - showing the Alliance at its most cynical).Those guys were hostile towards the Forsaken, and would have represented a strong Alliance foothold on their doorstep if left alone.

    Other than that, I agree, if she wanted to stay alive, it would have paid for Sylvanas to try to forge better relations and clear her image. Back in Legion, I had hopes that she would turn into a more sympathetic character, as she was in Warcraft III, where the dreadlords comment that "her heart is still elven" and we only see her being treacherous to villains. With the BFA trailer, I had hoped that the Alliance would start the conflict this time, and for the life of me I don't understand why Blizzard didn't take that route, as it would have been a much better story.

  16. #96
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Telogrus Rift
    Posts
    5,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    The attack on Gilneas was ordered by Garrosh. The Forsaken's position in the Horde was tenuous due to the Wrathgate incident, so they would have been kicked out or outright destroyed if they refused. Considering that Genn wanted the entire Orc population genocided - he originally left the Alliance because he didn't want to pay for the internment camp - closed his gates to the people of Lordaeron during the Scourge and Legion invasion, contributing nothing, and then unleashed the plague of Worgen in Silverpine, causing tons of issue for the Forsaken, I had zero sympathy for him and his people as a Horde player. Would have loved to hate the guy, but Blizzard has since whitewashed him.

    The conflict in the Plaguelands was the result of Varian shipping off his poor and destitute citizens to colonize the place (not a very safe option for them, but he solved his vagrant problems at home - which was fueling the Defias with recruits - showing the Alliance at its most cynical).Those guys were hostile towards the Forsaken, and would have represented a strong Alliance foothold on their doorstep if left alone.

    Other than that, I agree, if she wanted to stay alive, it would have paid for Sylvanas to try to forge better relations and clear her image. Back in Legion, I had hopes that she would turn into a more sympathetic character, as she was in Warcraft III, where the dreadlords comment that "her heart is still elven" and we only see her being treacherous to villains. With the BFA trailer, I had hoped that the Alliance would start the conflict this time, and for the life of me I don't understand why Blizzard didn't take that route, as it would have been a much better story.
    Wrathgate Incident which she ordered, by the way.

    Also, she was not sympathetic at all in WC3. In the span of 5 missions, she let Arthas get away because she wanted to monologue, and she betrayed and slaughtered the New Alliance.

    Also, tell the full story. Yes, the dreadlord initially said that they believed her heart was still elven, but later on, after working with her, Varimathras remarked how she was becoming more and more like the dreadlords.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    We already know what her motives are. We've known that since Three Sisters comic:
    We know nothing about what that actually means. We have a whole expansion about Death, surely a lot more is to be revealed there, don't you think? I mean, if the overarching narrative of the expansion is that Sylvanas simply wants to rule that place and throws *insert new henchmen here* at everyone else until we kill her in a raid, it sounds pretty boring and not worth all the secrecy.

  18. #98
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Telogrus Rift
    Posts
    5,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    We know nothing about what that actually means. We have a whole expansion about Death, surely a lot more is to be revealed there, don't you think? I mean, if the overarching narrative of the expansion is that Sylvanas simply wants to rule that place and throws *insert new henchmen here* at everyone else until we kill her in a raid, it sounds pretty boring and not worth all the secrecy.
    "All will serve Death, all will serve me."

    Saurfang: "When Sylvanas became Warchief, she told Vol'jin these words... In the end, death claims us all."

    What do you think that means? It's obvious that Blizzard is writing her as a nihilist villain who wants to kill everyone.

    There's not much left that needs to be revealed. Just like there wasn't much left to be revealed about Garrosh during WoD. All that's left now is to discover who betrays who first between Sylvanas and Jailer (most likely the Jailer, since he is the main villain of Shadowlands), and how Sylvanas ultimately loses.

    Also, they kept the secrecy during BfA. Now we know why they did that, they did not want to reveal yet that Sylvanas was working with the Jailer to kill everyone by using the Fourth War as fuel for their powers. The questions of BfA are all answered. There's no secrecy left with Sylvanas. We're past the time we could say "Well, we don't know what her true motivations are, let's wait for the full story."
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 07:34 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Wrathgate Incident which she ordered, by the way.

    Also, she was not sympathetic at all in WC3. In the span of 5 missions, she let Arthas get away because she wanted to monologue, and she betrayed and slaughtered the New Alliance.

    Also, tell the full story. Yes, the dreadlord initially said that they believed her heart was still elven, but later on, after working with her, Varimathras remarked how she was becoming more and more like the dreadlords.
    Wrathgate being ordered by her is a retcon at best, headcanon at worst. There is nothing in the narrative at that time suggesting that she did, quite the opposite in fact, and it doesn't line up with her motivations and the fact that she wanted to kill herself after Arthas's death (she would have had nothing to gain from weakening the Alliance then). You can get away with her ordering the trap and not caring about collateral casualties, which was always assumed, but surely at that time she would have wanted all the barrels of plague flying at Arthas and not randomly around the Horde and Alliance camps.

    Arthas getting away was to establish motivations. Even Archimonde allowed Tyrande to escape by stealthing right in front of him, it was the nature of the game. And don't make me laugh about "betraying New Alliance", Garithos was about as likeable as Hitler, I cheered when he got murdered and eaten by zombies.

    And yes, the dreadlord told her she was "becoming more like one of them" because their MO is to slowly corrupt people. Obviously that didn't go his way.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    No u shud chill danuser

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •