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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    he didnt though.
    if you could show me him torturing women children and innocent sure.
    but atleast he had a reason, he was near defeatign the legion till we fucked it.
    sylvanas only did it to well cause she wanted to.
    And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.

  2. #122
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Just admit that you are ok with an awful story as long as you get what you want in the end. ) The rest is just pedantry. I will admit myself that I wanted Sylvanas to become more integrated in the Horde throughout Legion and BFA, since we are sorely lacking first tier characters and our heroes turning into villains has gotten bloody old - and I don't appreciate the fact that Blizzard trolled us with it before going in the opposite direction.

    And I stand by calling Alliance players "dumb, xenophobic shitheads".

    It's funny how unaware they are of their own biases when they bring up the Forsaken's mistreatment of people in Hillsbrad and Gilneas. If you go in Alliance starting zones, you'll find plenty of similar quests. The Dwarves in Kharanos send you to cull the Frostmane trolls (a people that used to live in Dun Morogh before the dwarves took their land away from them), and local brewer even wants you to steal baskets of weeds from them, instead of growing them his own damn self. And they fight these stone age trolls with steam tanks, one of which is called "Trollplough".

    In Goldshire, there are not one, but two people sending you to steal stuff from kobolds. What is a kobold's life worth for a human of Stormwind? A candle, or a bit of gold dust. Meanwhile, the gnolls are being hunted down because they are "brutish creatures, who have no honest business being on our lands". They are deemed an "infestation", and a bounty is put on them as soon as they are spotted. Stormwind doesn't even treat its own people well - a guard gives you a quest to kill a guy for stealing a pig, and you have to fight him and loot his head off his corpse in front of a couple children (presumable his own), and the destitute refugees crowding in Westfall are treated with disgust by the guards.

    These things don't get noticed when the quest mobs are coded as ugly, poor, stupid or savage, or when they did the slightest thing wrong. It's business as usual, even though they're all sentient, maybe a bit slow (which in our world would demand compassion). But when the quest mobs are humans, with a West-coded culture no less, why, whatever faction kills them are the worst villains in WoW!
    But the story is not awful, that's what I'm telling you. Sylvanas' story at least.

    Why are we talking about dwarves and Goldshire? The topic is Sylvanas and whether she's evil or not. The dwarf who wanted to kill troll children will face the Arbiter's judgement when he dies. But we are talking about Sylvanas. Why this sudden shift?

    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.
    Not really an entire planet. Outlands consist of one continent (Draenor has several), and only fractions of said continent.

    Also don't downplay Sylvanas' feats. Starting a world war and committing genocide right at the beginning of it is noteworthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
    2. killing sons of lotahr?
    3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
    "whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.
    To be honest Illidan always felt like a tame villain. If I'm not mistaken Blizzard even lamented how passive Illidan felt, he didn't seem like a real threat, hence why they eventually wrote the Lich King and Deathwing as more proactive and "in your face" villains. If I'm not mistaken he didn't even threaten all of Outland. The Legion was a bigger threat in Blade's Edge, Netherstorm, and of course Hellfire (where they cause the expansion to happen by reopening the portal).
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 09:11 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  3. #123
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    And how exactly enslaving draenei and nether dragons, joining forces with the Fel Horde and Teron Gorefiend, constantly killing Sons of Lothar and Sha'tari would have helped him in defeating the Legion? He terrorised the WHOLE planet. Sylvanas's actions pale in comparison to his.
    1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
    2. killing sons of lotahr?
    3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
    "whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    They raided Forsaken territory.
    Although that wasn't pointed at me, I'll give a question:
    Does that mean they had right and weren't evil for doing such a thing?

    If someone raid some place, does that mean other people can experiment on their prey?

    Do homeowners have right to experiment on burglars(if they catch them) and they wouldn't be labeled as someone evil?

  5. #125
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    To be honest Illidan always felt like a tame villain. If I'm not mistaken Blizzard even lamented how passive Illidan felt, he didn't seem like a real threat, hence why they eventually wrote the Lich King and Deathwing as more proactive and "in your face" villains.
    ^^^
    They did so because illidan was not a villian in warcraft, he was chaotic good. so when tbc came out and they needed some good villians they just chose him cause he was a good figurehead, he wasnt even the final boss of the expac.
    they tried their best to make him a villian who we kinda agreed with, but their shitty writing back then... well yeah... didnt work, but hey with legion they took those ends and tied them together to point out what they wanted to do, which was well good guy but "greater good" guy

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. taking control of them to gain the powers he needed
    2. killing sons of lotahr?
    3. killing sha'tari? do you mean the attack done by kaelthas without illidans orders?
    "whole planet" it aint a planet boi, also he was rather kidn to those who obeyed.
    1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
    2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
    3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
    Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    But the story is not awful, that's what I'm telling you. Sylvanas' story at least.

    Why are we talking about dwarves and Goldshire? The topic is Sylvanas and whether she's evil or not. The dwarf who wanted to kill troll children will face the Arbiter's judgement when he dies. But we are talking about Sylvanas. Why this sudden shift?
    Because making Sylvanas a villain (or pretending to) is a narrative choice in a larger context.

    It doesn't just affect her, but other characters in the Horde and story moments experienced by the player, such as Vol'jin and his choice to name her his successor (and the tone of the clip in which he does that), or the repeat, at an accelerated pace, of the arc we experienced with Garrosh.

    It presents choices that strain credibility, such as the Horde at large going through with an unprovoked attack on the Night Elves - considering that most of the Orcs, the most violent of the tribal Horde races, were the ones who sided with Vol'jin in MoP and fought against their own (uncorrupted) kind to defend Azeroth in WoD, and that the newly joined Nightborne, while favoring the Blood Elves, probably weren't expecting a war with the people who helped them out in Legion - only to revert their stance over the much smaller issue of Baine being imprisoned for treason. Or the Forsaken siding with the Horde over Sylvanas, without a real explanation except for the opinions of characters presented as being in the minority... or the other Horde races believing that they would, for that matter, when they used to be mistrusted by many.

    It also presents the Alliance in an excessively idyllic light, which makes one ask why do the factions even exist, why doesn't everyone just join Anduin and his endless human potential.

    So you see, it's not just about Sylvanas. Just like Garrosh's story was partially responsible for destroying Thrall's character, turning Sylvanas into a villain upsets a lot of things within the Horde that you, as an Alliance player, probably don't care about.

  8. #128
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
    2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
    3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
    Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.
    1. illidan is doing so to save the universe, sylvanas is doing it to better herself and end the universe, aswell as doing it much worse then illidan
    2. illidan did not have direct control of them
    3. those were kaelthas's attacks on them, not illidans, and kaelthas had betrayed illidan, working with kiljaden
    4. LOLOL yeah no she aint, shall we look to some examples?
    *Sylvanas blows the horn for the meeting to end*
    *Some undead run back to sylvanas as they should, while others run away to try and get to their families.*
    *SYLVANAS KILLS ALL OF THEM, EVEN THOSE THAT OBEYED HER.*

  9. #129
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    1. Exactly what Sylvanas is doing.
    2. The Fel Horde served the Illidari. And fel orcs nearly destroyed the Honor Hold.
    3. His attack on Altar of Sha'tar and Sanctum of the Stars.
    Again, Sylvanas is also kind to those who obey.
    Not exactly what Sylvanas is doing, she's straight up killing them. She committed the Burning of Teldrassil because she knew all those innocent souls would be automatically directed to the Maw (because the engine of death has been broken since Legion) and both she and the Jailer would grow much more powerful as a result.

    Are you really saying that attacking the decrepit Honor Hold or two outposts equals to Sylvanas nuking Gilneas, Southshore, and Teldrassil? Obviously Illidan can be blamed for having been hostile towards Alliance and Horde, but he hasn't caused nearly as much damage to civilian targets as Sylvanas has. Even the broken he enslaved if I'm not mistaken were mostly warriors whom he needed to bolster his defences.

    Sylvanas isn't really kind to those who obey her though, is she? The loyalist player followed her every command, and yet she was still willing to let Azshara kill them as she had no plan to save her loyalists from what was to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Because making Sylvanas a villain (or pretending to) is a narrative choice in a larger context.

    It doesn't just affect her, but other characters in the Horde and story moments experienced by the player, such as Vol'jin and his choice to name her his successor (and the tone of the clip in which he does that), or the repeat, at an accelerated pace, of the arc we experienced with Garrosh.

    It presents choices that strain credibility, such as the Horde at large going through with an unprovoked attack on the Night Elves - considering that most of the Orcs, the most violent of the tribal Horde races, were the ones who sided with Vol'jin in MoP and fought against their own (uncorrupted) kind to defend Azeroth in WoD, and that the newly joined Nightborne, while favoring the Blood Elves, probably weren't expecting a war with the people who helped them out in Legion - only to revert their stance over the much smaller issue of Baine being imprisoned for treason. Or the Forsaken siding with the Horde over Sylvanas, without a real explanation except for the opinions of characters presented as being in the minority... or the other Horde races believing that they would, for that matter, when they used to be mistrusted by many.

    It also presents the Alliance in an excessively idyllic light, which makes one ask why do the factions even exist, why doesn't everyone just join Anduin and his endless human potential.

    So you see, it's not just about Sylvanas. Just like Garrosh's story was partially responsible for destroying Thrall's character, turning Sylvanas into a villain upsets a lot of things within the Horde that you, as an Alliance player, probably don't care about.
    I think you're being melodramatic. She's been a villain since Classic and that alone in my opinion was not a problem for the story or the characters around her. I definitely would've preferred if she had remained dead at the end of WotLK though. Her story arc was done at that point and concluded in an actual sombre and interesting way. Here's a person who devoted her last years to getting revenge on one guy. And she arrived 10 minutes too late, losing her chance at revenge. It's a nice metaphor of how blindly following vengeance is not worth it.

    But of course they needed to bring her back in Edge of Night. Probably because they had not yet developed other Forsaken characters, so they needed to keep Sylvanas around. Now luckily that's no longer a problem. Voss is a developed character who already replaced Sylvanas as the de-facto leader of the Forsaken.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 09:28 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Yes, you did.
    No I didnt, and neither your quote or wall of text proved so.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I think you're being melodramatic. She's been a villain since Classic and that alone in my opinion was not a problem for the story or the characters around her. I definitely would've preferred if she had remained dead at the end of WotLK though. Her story arc was done at that point and concluded in an actual sombre and interesting way. Here's a person who devoted her last years to getting revenge on one guy. And she arrived 10 minutes too late, losing her chance at revenge. It's a nice metaphor of how blindly following vengeance is not worth it.

    But of course they needed to bring her back in Edge of Night. Probably because they had not yet developed other Forsaken characters, so they needed to keep Sylvanas around. Now luckily that's no longer a problem. Voss is a developed character who already replaced Sylvanas as the de-facto leader of the Forsaken.
    Voss replacing Sylvanas is like Matthias Shaw replacing Anduin... only worse, because Shaw is actually more interesting than the boy king

    The Horde is severely lacking first tier characters... we were lacking them since Legion. Only Baine, Lor'themar and Gallywix left as legit racial leaders, the rest core races left aimless or reverted to second tier chars... and Gallywix is presented as an antagonist too, especially to his own race (something that never really happened with Sylvanas). Meanwhile, the Alliance has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Genn, Moira, Muradin, Mekkatorque and Jaina, with her family in tow.

    Sure, you can count Thalysra and Talanji as newly introduced but heavily featured leaders, but then you have Turalyon and Alleria on the Alliance side, both major characters with deep, deep lore roots. You want to count Rexxar and Rokhan? Ok, but count Maiev, Shandris and Brann as well. And the Alliance has successors ready too, Genn has a daughter who was there from the start, and now we found Bolvar's kid as well. Even if we add Thrall returning from neutrality (he is a joke and a permanent mockery of a character now, but ok), the Alliance still has Magni and Khadgar waiting in the shadow.

    What Sylvanas actually needed was a resolution with Arthas. She should have been part of the encounter back in WotLk, instead of getting a failed attempt that didn't progress the story in any way, and made her look even worse after the Wrath Gate.

  12. #132
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    Voss replacing Sylvanas is like Matthias Shaw replacing Anduin... only worse, because Shaw is actually more interesting than the boy king

    The Horde is severely lacking first tier characters... we were lacking them since Legion. Only Baine, Lor'themar and Gallywix left as legit racial leaders, the rest core races left aimless or reverted to second tier chars... and Gallywix is presented as an antagonist too, especially to his own race (something that never really happened with Sylvanas). Meanwhile, the Alliance has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Genn, Moira, Muradin, Mekkatorque and Jaina, with her family in tow.

    Sure, you can count Thalysra and Talanji as newly introduced but heavily featured leaders, but then you have Turalyon and Alleria on the Alliance side, both major characters with deep, deep lore roots. You want to count Rexxar and Rokhan? Ok, but count Maiev, Shandris and Brann as well. And the Alliance has successors ready too, Genn has a daughter who was there from the start, and now we found Bolvar's kid as well. Even if we add Thrall returning from neutrality (he is a joke and a permanent mockery of a character now, but ok), the Alliance still has Magni and Khadgar waiting in the shadow.

    What Sylvanas actually needed was a resolution with Arthas. She should have been part of the encounter back in WotLk, instead of getting a failed attempt that didn't progress the story in any way, and made her look even worse after the Wrath Gate.
    No, her not even getting a spot in the Arthas fight in my opinion was poetic justice for her stupid monologue in WC3 which let Arthas get away.

    Also half of the Alliance leaders you mentioned didn't even appear in BfA beyond 10 minutes. I'm not really interested in crazy power levels if nothing is done with those characters.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, her not even getting a spot in the Arthas fight in my opinion was poetic justice for her stupid monologue in WC3 which let Arthas get away.

    Also half of the Alliance leaders you mentioned didn't even appear in BfA beyond 10 minutes. I'm not really interested in crazy power levels if nothing is done with those characters.
    It's not about appearance in BFA, but potential for the story going forward. The Horde was stretched between two identities without much explanation as it why it kept jumping between them, and with the current lack of characters it's left even more aimless.

    But I applaud your commitment to claiming every story choice that shits on Sylvanas is great just because it shits on her. You would make a great arch for her! I really hope they Kerrigan her, because it would be hilarious to see you wring your fingers about it on the forums...

  14. #134
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    It's not about appearance in BFA, but potential for the story going forward. The Horde was stretched between two identities without much explanation as it why it kept jumping between them, and with the current lack of characters it's left even more aimless.

    But I applaud your commitment to claiming every story choice that shits on Sylvanas is great just because it shits on her. You would make a great arch for her! I really hope they Kerrigan her, because it would be hilarious to see you wring your fingers about it on the forums...
    I never claimed that at all. Also, there's nothing wrong with supporting a negative character arc for a villain that was already established 15 years ago. Also, I gave reasons why I think it was poetic justice for Sylvanas to miss Arthas' death just by a few moments.

    Also, nah, I already said that if they Kerrigan her I'll just take the L and accept it. I don't really see the point in QQing on the forum, plus that'd mean that Sylvanas fucks off never to be seen again. In the end it would somewhat be worth it just for that.

    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    I guess I can see why you're not the best person to understand to Undead fans.

  16. #136
    Did OP just drop this turd of a thread on the carpet and then run off?
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I do think I could make a better arc for her. I'd just keep her dead at the end of WotLK. That's when her arc was complete. And I wouldn't have made Undead playable in the first place, that way they wouldn't need to worry about a playable race not having any other famous named character.
    I agree with that. Sylvanas should've just stayed dead at the end of WoTLK.

  18. #138
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut View Post
    I guess I can see why you're not the best person to understand to Undead fans.
    Actually I have talked with many undead fans in the past, and many of them agree that they would have preferred if Sylvanas remained dead in Cataclysm. Her story was done at that point. Also many undead fans did not like the new direction they had under Sylvanas in Cataclysm. Not all undead players enjoyed the "evil conquerors who use chemical weapons and valkyrs" narrative.

    You do not speak for anyone but yourself. Crazy, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Did OP just drop this turd of a thread on the carpet and then run off?
    Seems to be the case. A thread which basically asks whether Sylvanas is evil or not is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-03-28 at 10:46 PM.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Bael'dun is built on tauren village that contained children. Alliance also burn vulpera carriages, which likely contain children, as they are rarely depicted walking alongside adults.

    As for torture, it is not only Horde that uses prisoners for target practice.
    but are horde vermin even considered ''people''?

  20. #140
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Avatar checks out.
    shes the best looking of the three sisters alleria is a close second... and vereesa isnt even that good looking at all.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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