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  1. #141
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.
    If illidan is your bar for not being a villain then wow doesn’t have any villains at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    which was well good guy but "greater good" guy
    The greater good is a meaningless concept when it comes to rather some one is a villain or not as most villains see them selfs as doing the right thing. Arthas was going after the “greater good” by making a united undead Azeroth so was Sargaras by stoping he void lords. Illidan hits every single possible bar for being a villain just like any one else the only different is his evil acts line up with what core players of Azeroth want so they turn a blind eye to them.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz1979 View Post
    shes the best looking of the three sisters alleria is a close second... and vereesa isnt even that good looking at all.
    how is a reanimated dead corpse better looking than a living, beautiful High Elven one

  3. #143
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.
    Illidan is a villain
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  4. #144
    Are there people that seriously still believe Sylvannas is doing the greater good by killing all of Azeroth? I can't wait to end her in Shadowlands along with her Jailer Master so we can finally close this chapter for good.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Are there people that seriously still believe Sylvannas is doing the greater good by killing all of Azeroth? I can't wait to end her in Shadowlands along with her Jailer Master so we can finally close this chapter for good.
    Yes.
    "She says and does awful things, but in her heart, I know she means well and does her best."

  6. #146
    High Overlord Lorde Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrotix View Post
    Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

    Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
    She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

    Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

    Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

    This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

    Is anyone else really pissed about this??
    Nothing Better than Sylvanas Fanboys Tears For Breakfast, keep it up guys.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-29 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  7. #147
    I am Murloc! Zuben's Avatar
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    They're not done with her yet, we still have a whole expansion to go until her story is (presumably) closed.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  8. #148
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    When your stated goal is to kill all life, you're a villain. It doesn't matter why you're engaging in omnicide, that simply provides rationale for your behavior, not justifies it. Sylvanas has actively been waging war with the intent to kill everyone she comes across since being revived by the val'kyr at Icecrown Citadel. Before then, she was still actively developing a plague equally lethal to the living and undead with full intent to use it as soon as possible. Since the plague was perfected, she's used it liberally, oftentimes choosing to simply plaguebomb a settlement into extinction to save time rather than engage in any other form of warfare.

    As far back as Vanilla, the Forsaken were actively engaged in human experimentation to perfect, again, a plague explicitly designed to kill everything it comes in contact with. A plague she had no problem using against civilian populations in Southshore and Gilneas back in Cataclysm, when she was supposedly a "victim." Sylvanas was always Capital E Evil, the only difference is that the writing in BFA overall abandoned nuance and subtlety.

    Her character wasn't assassinated, it was pushed into the spotlight and a bright neon sign was put up above her head reading "I KILL SHITLOADS OF PEOPLE FOR COMPLETELY SELFISH REASONS."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    So what? Illidan also did this in BC. He terrorized the whole Outland. But he isn't considered a villain.
    The only people who don't see Illidan as a dangerously-unhinged lunatic, especially after Legion gave us quests showing his willingness to kill his allies and throw everyone around him to the wolves for the smallest scraps of power, whose obsession rules him beyond any hope of reason, were his fanboys who furiously beat themselves over "AYE YAM MUH SKARZ!"
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  9. #149
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    When your stated goal is to kill all life, you're a villain. It doesn't matter why you're engaging in omnicide, that simply provides rationale for your behavior, not justifies it. Sylvanas has actively been waging war with the intent to kill everyone she comes across since being revived by the val'kyr at Icecrown Citadel. Before then, she was still actively developing a plague equally lethal to the living and undead with full intent to use it as soon as possible. Since the plague was perfected, she's used it liberally, oftentimes choosing to simply plaguebomb a settlement into extinction to save time rather than engage in any other form of warfare.

    As far back as Vanilla, the Forsaken were actively engaged in human experimentation to perfect, again, a plague explicitly designed to kill everything it comes in contact with. A plague she had no problem using against civilian populations in Southshore and Gilneas back in Cataclysm, when she was supposedly a "victim." Sylvanas was always Capital E Evil, the only difference is that the writing in BFA overall abandoned nuance and subtlety.

    Her character wasn't assassinated, it was pushed into the spotlight and a bright neon sign was put up above her head reading "I KILL SHITLOADS OF PEOPLE FOR COMPLETELY SELFISH REASONS."

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    The only people who don't see Illidan as a dangerously-unhinged lunatic, especially after Legion gave us quests showing his willingness to kill his allies and throw everyone around him to the wolves for the smallest scraps of power, whose obsession rules him beyond any hope of reason, were his fanboys who furiously beat themselves over "AYE YAM MUH SKARZ!"
    It's not that BfA's writing wasn't subtle enough. I mean, this shit was bound to happen. You can't give all the military power to a psycho and then expect her not to commit genocide. At least before BfA she was just leader of the Forsaken and had to work from the shadows, so she couldn't start any world wars. What happened in BfA was predictable. What was Vol'jin thinking...
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  10. #150
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's not that BfA's writing wasn't subtle enough. I mean, this shit was bound to happen. You can't give all the military power to a psycho and then expect her not to commit genocide. At least before BfA she was just leader of the Forsaken and had to work from the shadows, so she couldn't start any world wars. What happened in BfA was predictable. What was Vol'jin thinking...
    Vol'jin was convinced the loa were telling him to pick Sylvanas, and since reconnecting with his troll roots in Shadows of the Horde, he's been much more willing to take their advice onboard. Now we know from Vol'jin's questline that he got played, though Sylvanas's reaction to that whole shebang is yet another example of Blizzard obviously shoehorning in things after the matter when they realized putting an omnicidal maniac in charge of a playable faction went over roughly as well as a wet dog fart (her stunned reaction in the Vol'jin death cinematic, as well as her internal monologue in Before the Storm, both suggest alternate motives to her sudden fit of manic lunacy beyond "Gonna kill everyone because dis wurld iz a prisun.").
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Vol'jin was convinced the loa were telling him to pick Sylvanas, and since reconnecting with his troll roots in Shadows of the Horde, he's been much more willing to take their advice onboard. Now we know from Vol'jin's questline that he got played, though Sylvanas's reaction to that whole shebang is yet another example of Blizzard obviously shoehorning in things after the matter when they realized putting an omnicidal maniac in charge of a playable faction went over roughly as well as a wet dog fart (her stunned reaction in the Vol'jin death cinematic, as well as her internal monologue in Before the Storm, both suggest alternate motives to her sudden fit of manic lunacy beyond "Gonna kill everyone because dis wurld iz a prisun.").
    He was convinced, that's the problem. You can listen to the advice of the "almighty spirits" and still reject it. It really didn't take a genius to figure out Sylvanas was the worst candidate for Warchief.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    They're not done with her yet, we still have a whole expansion to go until her story is (presumably) closed.
    Hopefully she just gets Gul'daned in like 9.1.
    That'd be swell.

  13. #153
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    He was convinced, that's the problem. You can listen to the advice of the "almighty spirits" and still reject it. It really didn't take a genius to figure out Sylvanas was the worst candidate for Warchief.
    If memory serves, Vol'jin knew it would be a wildly unpopular choice and said as much--he even reminded her that he thought she was a bit of a cunt, even. But whatever whispered to him and convinced him she was the one to pick apparently put the idea that the increased responsibility and transparency would inspire her to be a better person--that it was time for her to leave the shadows and lead the Horde through hard times. And this, I can buy. For everything else he is, Vol'jin is an inherent optimist who wants to believe the best of the Horde. After he lost his cool with Garrosh early in Cataclysm, he reconsidered and reminded himself the Horde is a brotherhood and Garrosh a flash in the pan--a philosophy that paid off in full when the majority of the Horde rallied with him and Baine after they rebelled. So whatever manipulated him knew what angle to take here, and when you're on death's door you're not exactly thinking clearly.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  14. #154
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    BFA did not change Sylvanas.
    Oh yes, it did. Before BfA, she wasn't certainly a nice girl by any means, but she had at least actual motives for all her shadowy, underhanded deeds. BfA turned it into a Saturday morning cartoon villain with that cringey af "war on hope", as well as her new ghostly sugar daddy pulled straight out of Blizzard's rear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  15. #155
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    What was Vol'jin thinking...
    The loa of marketing was too strong to ignore
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Are there people that seriously still believe Sylvannas is doing the greater good by killing all of Azeroth? I can't wait to end her in Shadowlands along with her Jailer Master so we can finally close this chapter for good.
    She's doing what people like me want her to do. Killing the entirety of Azeroth so this stupid game can end :P

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    The only people who don't see Illidan as a dangerously-unhinged lunatic, especially after Legion gave us quests showing his willingness to kill his allies and throw everyone around him to the wolves for the smallest scraps of power, whose obsession rules him beyond any hope of reason, were his fanboys who furiously beat themselves over "AYE YAM MUH SKARZ!"
    I think it's more about how Illidan wants to end the biggest threat in the Universe no matter what so we can ally ourselves with him while Sylvanas is just evil.

  18. #158
    I am Murloc! Varodoc's Avatar
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    Pretty sure Tyrande, Malfurion, and pretty much anyone else Illidan hurt in the past are still pissed at him. Only Velen and maybe Khadgar forgave him. To the rest of the world, he's still seen as a monster, and even Blizzard does not try to white-wash him. Heck, Xe'ra, the one who was fangirling all over Illidan, dies precisely because of her obsession with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    If memory serves, Vol'jin knew it would be a wildly unpopular choice and said as much--he even reminded her that he thought she was a bit of a cunt, even. But whatever whispered to him and convinced him she was the one to pick apparently put the idea that the increased responsibility and transparency would inspire her to be a better person--that it was time for her to leave the shadows and lead the Horde through hard times. And this, I can buy. For everything else he is, Vol'jin is an inherent optimist who wants to believe the best of the Horde. After he lost his cool with Garrosh early in Cataclysm, he reconsidered and reminded himself the Horde is a brotherhood and Garrosh a flash in the pan--a philosophy that paid off in full when the majority of the Horde rallied with him and Baine after they rebelled. So whatever manipulated him knew what angle to take here, and when you're on death's door you're not exactly thinking clearly.
    His plan didn't work anyway, since Sylvanas continued doing shady things behind everyone's back. It took Saurfang's death for her to finally come out as a psycho who hates the Horde. He was more naive than optimistic. Being in the spotlight more often than not brings the worst out of people. Look what happened to Garrosh once he got promoted to Warchief.

    But oh well, now we know that it was the Jailer manipulating Vol'jin to make Sylvanas Warchief.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    I don't know exactly when the Alliance killed the Warsong peons, but it was likely justified as the Warsong Clan was known to invade Ashenvale and wage war with the Silverwing Sentinels, even while Thrall was Warschief.
    It was not an invasion. Thrall sent them to get some wood. Elves attacked workers.
    Stonard was an outpost located near Alliance territory, not a village full of civilians.
    An outpost to protect the caravans. Also, there are also civilians, like inkeeper or traders.

    Dalaran was not a massacre, Jaina just imprisoned the majority of the Sunreavers (for a very good reason) and killed the ones that resisted.
    Jaina also shot fleeing civilians. Silver Covenant attacked unarmed Sunreavers.

    When Sargeras stabbed Silithus, the Alliance's response was to send Druids and Priestesses to investigate and possible heal the area, while the Horde only thought of how it could benefit them (surprise, surprise).
    Goblins only gathered some new ores that appeared. That was simple scientific research. Just after Malfurion sent his druids, Hamuul Runetotem came with other druids and shamans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Stop chopping up nelven ancient forests maybe. It's what invaders usually get because natives want to defend their territory which is totally legit in my book. Also, please don't compare the destruction of Theramore and Teldrassil with the destruction of some mudhuts, please.
    If chopping wood in totally empty forest is evil, why does the Alliance have rights to start excavations on tauren territory?

    Also, Theramore is nothing more than a couple of mudhuts with blue roofs.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Pretty sure Tyrande, Malfurion, and pretty much anyone else Illidan hurt in the past are still pissed at him. Only Velen and maybe Khadgar forgave him. To the rest of the world, he's still seen as a monster, and even Blizzard does not try to white-wash him. Heck, Xe'ra, the one who was fangirling all over Illidan, dies precisely because of her obsession with him.
    should they even be pissed at him???

    he never tried to conquer Azeroth or to destroy it.

    the Legion lacked one cutscene where people still viewed him as someone who did bad stuff so they still hated him, especially Night Elves.
    it's like we just welcomed him with open arms.

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