Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Raisei]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Nope, no one is making me think anything. I judge her by her deeds and her internal monolouge. No matter how much caps you put down to make yourself believe it, everything Sylvanas has done since she was freed from Arthas control was for her own selfish being: She murdered, raised, lied, genocided, used innocents in human trials of her new blight... These are the actions of a villain. You have to be completely blind to look at any of her actions and deem them anything else.

Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.

She has Free Will ever since she got freed from Arthas control. Everything she did after that is completely and utterly her fault. There are several Undead (without the bonus of a fully restored body) that chose to help people in the world, like Alonsus Faol, the Death Knight player character and the Ebon Blade. Saying that Sylvanas had to be evil because she is undead is nonesense, she had the choice to do something positive with her unlife, but she CHOSE not to.

This is not a thing of BFA, she has just been more guarded about her crimes before, now as Warchief she could not hide behind the Horde anymore. She has enganged in brutal murder and genocide long before BFA came around.

She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

There is the snag. Sylvanas got a wiff of what awaits her after her death and you make it sound like her only option is to be a cold-hearted monster only focussed on her own survival, that however is untrue.
There was two ways she could have gone. The first and easier one is to cling to unlife and do whatever it takes to stay alife no matter who she has to murder for it. The other much more painful way would have been REDEMPTION. She could have chosen to change her life and do good with her considerable powers and thus EARN her way into a better afterlife.
She has literally been given a second chance when she jumped from Icecrown. She was shown where her path would lead after the crimes she commited and then she was given the option of changing it. She chose not to. In fact, she chose to become even worse. She deserves everything coming to her after that point.
It's like in the "Christmas Carol" if Scrouge, after being shown the future, said "Yeah, nah, I stay as I am. Maybe I should burn down an orphanage."

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

You really need to stop making your own headcannon. Read what has been written about her, long before BFA. Read "Edge of Night", read "War Crimes". Sylvanas does not give a crap about the Forsaken other then as her personal shield against death.
She was a victim in the past, but when the victim starts genociding other races with biochemical weapons the victim card no longer works. She has free will. No body is controlling her, she is thus responsible for her own actions.

Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

Did you forget how she blighted Gilneas and thus murdered a good part of it population while forcing the rest to accept the worgen curse as their only way out?
Did you forget how she then proceeded to assassinate Greymane only to murder his son instead (a fact she has been happily gloating over for years now). Did you forget how she was going to use her own sister to assassinate Garrosh, keeping herself blameless in the process and then planned to murder Vareesa and her children too damn them to a life in undeath as well?
Open your eyes. She has always been a villian, the entire time. Even when she was still an elf she cared very little for the other elves under her command.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

I personally think that people who think her character changed in BFA have been willfully blind to how she was before. No protrayal, either inside or outside the game ever reflects this Hero Sylvanas that you claim exists. The only people that like her are the Forsaken, who simply had no other place to go and in many cases are of as rotten a character as Sylavans herself (the Royal Apothecaries are litterally evil scientists playing with deadly plagues and testing them on captured humans for fun).

So yeah, explain to me how all the monstrous crimes she comitted long before BFA do not make her a villain.

[Tarba]

Sylvanas = Orgrim Doomhammer.
One is praised the other one is hated. Why? Racism?

[Varodoc]

Sylvanas = Orgrim Doomhammer.
One is praised the other one is hated. Why? Racism?

Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.

The Horde is made up of psycopaths, so Sylvanas had a ton of support before she squandered it because Saurfang hit her in the eye.

Open your eyes. She has always been a villian, the entire time. Even when she was still an elf she cared very little for the other elves under her command.

Yep. She was always described as vainglorious and arrogant and considered her comrades nothing more than arrows in the quiver, expendable meatshield to throw at the enemy. She would've probably never gotten that position if Alleria was still on Azeroth.

[Tarba]

Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.

The Horde is made up of psycopaths, so Sylvanas had a ton of support before she squandered it because Saurfang hit her in the eye.

hmmm... Did you actually check? I mean Orgrim wiped out allied orcs clans and killed his warchief to become warchief himself then destroyed Stormwind and after that huge massacre, used raped mind enslaved red dragons and made necromancers from defiled alliance corpses filled with dead orcs souls to target Lordaeron and everything that was pretty much linked with the city he had just destroyed, "just in case they would attack back".

I mean, that's pretty much a hardcore version of Sylvanas we have here.
And his name was used for the glorious capital of the peacefull new horde.

[Varodoc]

hmmm... Did you actually check? I mean Orgrim wiped out allied orcs clans and killed his warchief to become warchief himself then destroyed Stormwind and after that huge massacre, used raped mind enslaved red dragons and made necromancers from defiled alliance corpses filled with dead orcs souls to target Lordaeron and everything that was pretty much linked with the city he had just destroyed, "just in case they would attack back".

I mean, that's pretty much a hardcore version of Sylvanas we have here.
And his name was used for the glorious capital of the peacefull new horde.

Yep, I checked, and he never nuked several cities, including one kingdom, using chemical weapons, never used Scourge creatures to mass-ressurect people, never made deals with deities of death, never tried to enslave an entire race of angelic beings, never tried to commit literal mundicide by waging war on life and hope, and never dumped the Horde when they were no longer useful.

Also lol who cares if he killed Blackhand and put the Shadow Council in their place. Exactly, literally nobody, because they were monsters.

But yes, the fact that they adopted his name when claiming to be a "New" Horde proves that many Hordies are still psycopaths. Perhaps that's why they were so quick to follow Sylvanas when she committed genocide, and only abandoned her once she revealed she never gave a shit about the Horde.

You've still got to tell me how Doomhammer is an "hardcore version of Sylvanas" though.

[Tarba]

Yep, I checked, and he never nuked several cities, including one kingdom, using chemical weapons, never used Scourge creatures to mass-ressurect people, never made deals with deities of death, never tried to enslave an entire race of angelic beings, never tried to commit literal mundicide by waging war on life and hope, and never dumped the Horde when they were no longer useful.

But yes, the fact that they adopted his name when claiming to be a "New" Horde proves that many Hordelets are still psycopaths. Perhaps that's why they were so quick to follow Sylvanas when she committed genocide, and only abandoned her once she revealed she never gave a shit about the Horde.

You've still got to tell me how Doomhammer is an "hardcore version of Sylvanas" though.

So he wiped out Stormwind. The capital of course, but also pretty much every town around.
Wiped out pretty much every dwarf /gnome lands, except their capital, because he couldn't. Did also that with the elves. Was on a close call for doing the same with Lordaeron before he was betrayed.

So yeah, he did way more damages than Sylvanas.

He used necromancers.
So yeah Sylvanas like.

He defiled the bodies of alliance soldiers with dead orc demonist souls he had killed himself.
Sylvanas didn't even thought about something like that.

He enslaved red dragons (they are nicer than your allready mind enlsaved "angels" by a LichKing bis)
So, evil version of Sylvanas.

He forced them to have a progeniture.
Sylvanas is not even close.

He mind controled them.
Sylvanas tried to do that on one long dead enemy corpse. So yeah, evil version of Sylvanas.

He made a pact with Guldan to use his most atrocious ideas against his enemies to destroy them.
Sylvanas made a pact with a death entity we don't know anything about. She killed a shit tone of people for this pact yeah. But she also planed the destruction of the last and most corruptive old god on azeroth.
Ogrim just tried to kill all his enemies. But heh, let's just make them even on that one.

Ogrim is just the very evil version of Sylvanas.

[Varodoc]

So he wiped out Stormwind. The capital of course, but also pretty much every town around.
Wiped out pretty much every dwarf lands, except their capital, because he couldn't. Was on a close call for doing the same with Lordaeron before he was betrayed.
He would have done the same with elves.
So yeah Sylvanas like.

He used necromancers.
So yeah Sylvanas like.

He defiled the bodies of alliance soldiers with orc souls.
Sylvanas didn't even thought about that.

He enslaved red dragons (they are nicer than your allready mind enlsaved "angels" by a LichKing bis)
So, evil version of Sylvanas.

He forced them to have a progeniture.
Sylvanas is not even close.

He mind controled them.
Sylvanas tried to do that on one long dead enemy corpse. So yeah, evil version of Sylvanas.

He made a pact with Guldan to use his most atrocious ideas against his enemies to destroy them.
Sylvanas made a pact with a death entity we don't know anything about. She killed a shit tone of people for this pact yeah. But she also planed the destruction of the last and most corruptive old god on azeroth.
Ogrim just tried to kill all his enemies.

Ogrim is just the very evil version of Sylvanas.

Well not really, since he doesnt want to kill everyone, doesnt hate hope and life, and wasnt using the Horde as a mere tool. There's a reason why Blizzard said Sylvanas was the successor of Blackhand's evil legacy, not Doomhammer's.

[Tarba]

Well not really, since he doesnt want to kill everyone, doesnt hate hope and life, and wasnt using the Horde as a mere tool. There's a reason why Blizzard said Sylvanas was the successor of Blackhand's evil legacy, not Doomhammer's.

Why should an undead love life? No particular reason to. Still she allways try to find a way to minimise her own side casualties even among the livings. That's not the "muh honor" way of course. That's better.
Even her first plan before Saurfang fucked it up was to break them, not to anihilate them.
Ogrim was pretty much allways about annihilating. You know... VICTORY OR DEATH

She tried to destroy hope in enemies ranks. That's the case in every war. If they have hope, they still fight, if not, they surrender. That's not at all a Sylvanas specific. And I'm pretty convinced that the horde was full of hope after a victory like that. It works both way.

The reason why Sylvanas was said by Blizzard as the successor of Blackhand and not Doomhammer, is that because Blizzard writers are retarded. Nothing new. If we look at the facts Blackhand was a pretty nice guy compared to Orgrim. Blackhand did nothing remotely close to all the atrocities Orgrim did (Maybe because he didn't have time? Still).Wich are basically way worst versions of what Sylvanas did. But they can't say that. Because "Ogrim is such a good guy and a hero of the horde!"

[tankbug]

She's been evil all the time, and Thrall/Vol'jin ignored it for the sake of avoiding a civil war. I don't care what the books say (and I don't know), because in the game, she is responsible for genocide, torture, illegal weapons, horrible experiments and disregard for the value of life, and that's long before she was corrupted or whatever is going on now.

[Varodoc]

Why should an undead love life? No particular reason to. Still she allways try to find a way to minimise her own side casualties even among the livings. That's not the "muh honor" way of course. That's better.
Even her first plan before Saurfang fucked it up was to break them, not to anihilate them.
Ogrim was pretty much allways about annihilating.

She tried to destroy hope in enemies ranks. That's the case in every war. If they have hope, they still fight, if not, they surrender. That's not at all a Sylvanas specific. And I'm pretty convinced that the horde was full of hope after a victory like that. It works both way.

The reason why Sylvanas was said by Blizzard as the successor of Blackhand and not Doomhammer, is that because Blizzard writers are retarded. Nothing new. If we look at the facts Blackhand was a pretty nice guy compared to Orgrim. Blackhand did nothing remotely close to all the atrocities Orgrim did. Wich are basically way worst versions of what Sylvanas did. But they can't say that. Because "Ogrim is such a good guy and a hero of the horde!"

Nope, she didn't merely want to break them, she wanted to kill all of them. She started the Fourth War only to empower herself and the Jailer with the ensuing bloodshed, and laments how the war ended prematurely. She even hoped that N'Zoth could indirectly serve Death by causing a carnage.

[Tarba]

Nope, she didn't merely want to break them, she wanted to kill all of them. She started the Fourth War only to empower herself and the Jailer with the ensuing bloodshed, and laments how the war ended prematurely. She even hoped that N'Zoth could indirectly serve Death by causing a carnage.

Nope the first plan was to break the alliance. Not to kill them all. Even derek larteron was a tool to make a huge blow while sparing horde soldiers (something that could of course displease Baine)
Also she gave the only weapon able to kill that oldgod to Azshara. So she could kill him once freed. That old god who was responsible for allready countless deaths during his imprisonment.

[Ardenaso]

I mean, does anyone really care about those things? The only real thing of relative value that could've been lost were the tuskarr.

I would care about the excited Scourge especially at the time Dalaran wasn't even reclaimed yet

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I doubt it would come to that disaster.

Regardless, his goal was not to destroy or conquer Azeroth.

Restless Scourge
Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
Restless Scourge
Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
Restless Scourge

I'm sure those will lead to the destruction of Azeroth

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Last I checked, Orgrim Doomhammer did not want to commit literal mundicide and cared about the Horde.

Orgrimm tossed the Alteraci aside and refused to uphold his end of the bargain with them

[Resheph]

<snip>

She is obviously a villain, always has been. The only reason you don't think so is because you are thinking with your gonads.

Dude, computer females aren't real. And they will never give you the love and attention you so clearly crave. It's a shame we're all confined indoors, as I would advise you some fresh air.

Infracted.

[Varodoc]

I would care about the excited Scourge especially at the time Dalaran wasn't even reclaimed yet

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Restless Scourge
Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
Restless Scourge
Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
Restless Scourge

I'm sure those will lead to the destruction of Azeroth

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Orgrimm tossed the Alteraci aside and refused to uphold his end of the bargain with them

Excited where? Lordaeron? They were already pushed to the east. And Dalaran was already reclaimed by Garithos and was being used as a shelter for refugees.

I don't know what you are talking about with Orgrim and Alterac. What bargain did he refuse to uphold?

[matrix123mko]

They attacked a bunch of monstrous looking outlanders that still reeked of demon blood. And I was talking about after the Third War. The Warsong Outriders kept invading Ashenvale and waging war with the Silverwing Sentinels, even Thrall disagreed with their actions.

Night elves joined Alliance. It is enough of reason to attack their territory.

Compliant Sunreavers were imprisoned, while the ones that resisted were killed. Seems reasonable enough, especially after Jaina was betrayed by the Horde, yet again.

Jaina betrayed the Horde and she got what she deserved. Unfortunately, she had to let off her emotions by killing some unarmed people who tried to run away.

It's literally stated that the Explorers' League was attacked by Bilgewater Goblins.

Goblins were in Silithus already at that time. It is also explicitly stated that Gallywix had his excavation before talking with Grizzek.

Don't even know what to say here, except that mud huts exclusively belong to the Horde.

Wildhammer Clan and Draenei would disagree.

Taurajo and Stonespire were camps/outposts, Teldrassil was an entire zone.

Barrens is entire zone. Darnassus is just a village with some ruins.

Yes, and as I already explained, the Dwarves and Night Elf Sentinels were attacked by the Bilgewater Goblins.

They were, just like Sylvanas was attacked by Greymane.

Why would Tyrande need to apologize to anyone?

Because she pretends to be innocent.

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Elegy literally has a night elf baby in it. The game isn’t to scale never has been going off of things like “I didn’t see an npc of it” is incredibly stupid.

So you agree that Alliance killed Horde children?

[DemonHunter18]

I would care about the excited Scourge especially at the time Dalaran wasn't even reclaimed yet

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Restless Scourge
Extinction for Tuskarr, Drakkari, Human Trappers, Vrykul, Taunka, Bael'gun's Dwarves, Frostborne etc.
Global flooding / rising sea levels that poses risk to Menethil Harbor, Darkshore, Theramore, Stormwind, etc.
Unleash the Faceless Ones and maybe even Yogg'sarron himself (it's heavily implied by Bael'gun that Illidan awakened the Faceless Ones)
Restless Scourge
Possible damage to the Emerald Dream
Possible madness of Malfurion due to trauma
Restless Scourge

I'm sure those will lead to the destruction of Azeroth

yeah, but Illidan isn't trying to destroy Azeroth.

he simply didn't think about consequences.

that doesn't make him evil as Sylvanas.

I can give you countless of other characters that don't think about consequences but it doesn't make them evil.

btw, a huge bulk of the Scourge was with Arthas in the Easter Kingdoms.

the whole stuff with the restless Scourge is BS.

we will see that in SL.

[matrix123mko]

If I'm not mistaken it was retconned into Jaina teleporting Sunreavers to the prison, but yes the High Elves massacred the Blood Elves

This is likely. They often retcon stuff like this. But the point stands: Alliance affiliated high elves acted against blood elves.

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wasn't there a dying mother with her son in the Darnassus Temple and then Elune intervened to make their deaths painless

Divine interventions are always weird. I like how she didn't make them survive. Reminds me of all these Christian legends.

[Eggroll]

She is obviously a villain, always has been. The only reason you don't think so is because you are thinking with your gonads.

Dude, computer females aren't real. And they will never give you the love and attention you so clearly crave. It's a shame we're all confined indoors, as I would advise you some fresh air.

That would be good advice for Steven Danuser, too, I guess, in the hopes we can move on from this World of Sylvanascraft soon. /smiley

[matrix123mko]

“Endless satisfaction” of the Alliance? I dont think you really ever played Alliance. We dont get any satisfaction.

Apparently winning all wars and killing Horde characters isn't enough for you. Endless satisfaction cannot happen in endlessly greedy minds of Alliance players.

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She is obviously a villain, always has been. The only reason you don't think so is because you are thinking with your gonads.

Dude, computer females aren't real. And they will never give you the love and attention you so clearly crave. It's a shame we're all confined indoors, as I would advise you some fresh air.

Good advice for all the people mourning dead night elf babes.

[Varodoc]

That would be good advice for Steven Danuser, too, I guess, in the hopes we can move on from this World of Sylvanascraft soon. /smiley

Well my faith in Danuser was restored, since unlike the rest of Sylvanas fanboys, he actually acknowledged that Sylvanas is evil and started the war.

But who am I kidding, these people will still claim that the Alliance started the war in Stormheim.