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  1. #21
    I killed a gnome. It was amusing.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    Yeah it was but only in retrospect after it became canon through their retcon lore reimagining and defining books.
    Up until Warcraft 3 I don't think there was any mention of reiviving people in the Warcraft 1 ans 2 lore books, nor any such spells in game aside from healing spells.

    Warcraft 3 truly took it up a notch with the Altar of Kings and resurection spells and Medivh coming back. Later in WoW's time they released physical books with stories of how that happened through Aegwynn.

    And the thing is I want to give a fuck especially since they make all the circumstances gut wrenching, but I just hope it won't turn into some "But for this really special occasion, we'll bring this guy/s back from the dead to do some crazy shit for an "epic" moment!".

    I thought the way Terenas came back to revive us was really well thought out, he had just been released from Frostmourne so he was still there for a while before hopping off to heaven, although I never understood why Terenas had massive Paladin/Priest Holy Light powers, especially as a spirit.

    And no random Billy won't come back for dinner but at this point, someone could bring him back if they wanted to. Hell that would actually be an interesting quest, some mom reads up on some necro shit to bring her dead son back and he returns Khal Drogo style and we have to help her kill him.
    Now that would be cool.

    And yeah they won't have recollection at the start, but marks my words someone hands Arthas see Jaina again and his memories flood back through the power of love, which transcends all dimens- oh wait, wrong movie.
    I mean... you have Death Knights in Warcraft 2 and Necrolytes in Warcraft 1 who were quite literally raising the dead. Death Knights specifically were slain Necrolyte souls affixed to dead knights and soldiers of the alliance. It was very well already part of the "lore" (which was barebones as well) back then.

    Retcons? Not really. Lore expands overtime and first Warcraft titles had very little lore to begin with compared to huge ass lore of Warcraft universe we have now.

    And don't worry, we will have plenty of spectacles there. I'm pretty sure we won't just stumble over Kael'thas there chilling in some castle and screeching "merely a setback" at us. There will be a story.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-03-28 at 01:18 PM.

  3. #23
    Just remember, Tempest Keep was merely a setback! I think that was the first time we had a bone fida final raid boss get turned into a 5man dungeon boss after their resurrection. I suppose there is a cost to resurrection after all...

    Bring someone back from the dead is fine, as long as you execute it well. Problem is we're used to seeing the mechanic used to fix plot holes (or make bigger ones that need to be fixed/retconned later), instead of a finely crafted narrative where the audience not only believes it but also has no issue with it. Death mechanics (and any emotional investment it brings) usually become worthless when overused to comedic levels. Probably doesn't help that people still seem to consume such narratives and toss millions/billions of dollars at such tripe... of course we're going to get more of it!
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Just remember, Tempest Keep was merely a setback! I think that was the first time we had a bone fida final raid boss get turned into a 5man dungeon boss after their resurrection. I suppose there is a cost to resurrection after all...

    Bring someone back from the dead is fine, as long as you execute it well. Problem is we're used to seeing the mechanic used to fix plot holes (or make bigger ones that need to be fixed/retconned later), instead of a finely crafted narrative where the audience not only believes it but also has no issue with it. Death mechanics (and any emotional investment it brings) usually become worthless when overused to comedic levels. Probably doesn't help that people still seem to consume such narratives and toss millions/billions of dollars at such tripe... of course we're going to get more of it!
    Much of it a problem of the wild days of Vanilla and TBC, where big lore hotshots were unceremoniously killed right and left and Blizzard realizing they are running out of W3 fuel to the funeral pyre. Starting TBC they started investing long-term, in realization that if they don't bring up some freshies, they will run out soon.

    TBC story was really a bunch of nonsense they ended up being forced to go with and much of this "merely a setback" originated there.

  5. #25
    Why would Warcraft characters dying ever have had an emotional impact in the first place? It's not like the story is particularly deep or meaningful, nor was there ever any reason to get attached to any of the characters in the first place.

    Personally I think it's better if they keep killing off and reviving the same characters over and over, at least it makes it easier to remember who these people are. Though I did totally forget who Wrathion was this expansion, even after seeing him turn into a giant dragon, still didn't ring any bells until a couple friends laughed at me for forgetting and then reminded me why I should care about him. Though I've already forgotten what those reasons were...

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by azkhane View Post
    Sargeras blew the entire pantheon with fel magic and they are back and kicking, fel magic dont destroy souls, it has the power to use souls as fuel for summonings, portals, etc but it dont blow souls just by killing people with fel magic
    because they barely escaped their bodies before they got destroyed

  7. #27
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    You think Warcraft is bad try reading Marvel comics... death has a revolving door there lol :P

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    You think Warcraft is bad try reading Marvel comics :P
    Honestly, I think this is the fate of all long running continuous fantasy stories. This and inevitable "fuck, we wrote ourselves into the corner, oh well parallel universe/timeline time!".

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I mean... you have Death Knights in Warcraft 2 and Necrolytes in Warcraft 1 who were quite literally raising the dead. Death Knights specifically were slain Necrolyte souls affixed to dead knights and soldiers of the alliance. It was very well already part of the "lore" (which was barebones as well) back then.

    Retcons? Not really. Lore expands overtime and first Warcraft titles had very little lore to begin with compared to huge ass lore of Warcraft universe we have now.

    And don't worry, we will have plenty of spectacles there. I'm pretty sure we won't just stumble over Kael'thas there chilling in some castle and screeching "merely a setback" at us. There will be a story.
    That's true, not sure how DKs in WC2 slipped my mind, it was even explained in the WC2 lorebooks what they were.

    But the first Wacraft games did have a lot of lore, it was just a lot more on the politics of the clans and Azerothian factions, with a lot left for imagination on demons and undeath and anything else.
    Back then it all felt like something that was there but that would never be fully explained because it was so otherwordly and beyond our mortal squabbles.

    And I hope Kael'Thas' appearance will be in passing, unless they can expand his character beyond the merely a setback meme he's become.
    His motivations and sacrifices are actually even bigger than Arthas', even though they shared a common goal.

  10. #30
    Death in WoW certainly has lost its touch.

    For one, sure, like OP said the "you come back to life" twist has been over played way to many times.

    Two, the "big death" thing has been over played. Almost like clock work.

    Combine it and suddenly you have death doesn't matter anymore because well.. you can usually see it a million miles away.. and know its like 99% going to be what happens. Then when it happens it is like.. well.. since creatively coming up with something new isn't going to happen because it costs 45 cents more to product than not... so here we go with the guy we just killed a bit ago to come back.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    You think Warcraft is bad try reading Marvel comics... death has a revolving door there lol :P
    For me the 2 Thanos movies were the two of the worst written stories in the history of cinema, I was struggling to try giving a fuck about anything in the second one.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Kael'thas crystal in his ass, demonic rebirth a la Archimonde, Teron Gorefiend animation, Illidan - whatever that even was, Medivh - whatever that was... etc etc.

    I mean, one should be used to this already.
    Kael'thas never died in the first place, Archimonde never died (because Demons don't die unless they're killed in the twisting nether or whatever the explanation is these days), Teron Gorefiend was resurrected as an undead Death Knight, Illidan never died and Medivh is probably the only exception and there's very special circumstances for that character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    I thought the way Terenas came back to revive us was really well thought out, he had just been released from Frostmourne so he was still there for a while before hopping off to heaven, although I never understood why Terenas had massive Paladin/Priest Holy Light powers, especially as a spirit.
    Take this with a grain of salt but there's a quest in the classic wetlands in which you have to retrieve a statue of Terenas Menethil from a sunken ship and the statue is described as the statue of a Paladin. Not sure how this fits in with established timelines and Paladin lore but yeah. Maybe Terenas was trained to use the Light.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-03-28 at 01:40 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Why would Warcraft characters dying ever have had an emotional impact in the first place? It's not like the story is particularly deep or meaningful, nor was there ever any reason to get attached to any of the characters in the first place.

    Personally I think it's better if they keep killing off and reviving the same characters over and over, at least it makes it easier to remember who these people are. Though I did totally forget who Wrathion was this expansion, even after seeing him turn into a giant dragon, still didn't ring any bells until a couple friends laughed at me for forgetting and then reminded me why I should care about him. Though I've already forgotten what those reasons were...
    I don't care about Wrathion because...I have no idea what the fuck he wants. Everything he does is cryptic and not properly explained, like anything that came out of pandaria.

    He wants to save the world...but does nothing to do so, except some out of nowhere moment in the very last battle of 2 expansions later, after we propped him up for that moment.
    He talks to us in riddles...wasting our time.
    He acts like he's a character we're supposed to care about because he seems important....but he's just the son of Deathwing, with nothing to show for it.
    He could get his throat sliced by a murloc and I wouldn't care.

    Varian for me was an Alliance patriot and a badass. His backstory is of a badass, his actions are badass, He's Trump when Trump does things right.
    He spits in the face of North Korea/Horde with all the world to see, then makes a peace agreement between himself and them with the threat of wiping them out from existence if they step out of line. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT OUT OF AN ALLIANCE WARCRAFT HERO? HE HAS TWO SWORDS. HIS FINGER IS BIGGER THAN MY DICK.

    Even Anduin, I don't have particular attachment to him, but after seeing all his stories and cinematics in BFA, I can't help but be sad if he'd get snuffed.
    Same goes for Saurfang.

    My bae Jaina's been with me since Warcraft 3, and she's had a hard life, would be sad to watch her go.

    Arthas' death felt unecessary and forced in WOTLK, and I didn't really care about his death cause his character as LK made no sense whatsoever in WOTLK.
    Felt like a slap in the face from everything WC3 built.

    Anyway I could go on, but these are some examples.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Kael'thas never died in the first place, Archimonde never died (because Demons don't die unless they're killed in the twisting nether or whatever the explanation is these days), Teron Gorefiend was resurrected as an undead Death Knight, Illidan never died and Medivh is probably the only exception and there's very special circumstances for that character.

    Take this with a grain of salt but there's a quest in the classic wetlands in which you have to retrieve a statue of Terenas Menethil from a sunken ship and the statue is described as the statue of a Paladin. Not sure how this fits in with established timelines and Paladin lore but yeah. Maybe Terenas was trained to use the Light.
    Ah yes I remember that quest, it was on the west coast of the Wetlands with murlocs around right?
    Yeah I just don't remember the details, but I guess that explains it, though why it's such an obscure mention of such an important fact and not mentioned at all pre-ICC in wotlk is kinda weird as far as storytelling goes.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    Varian for me was an Alliance patriot and a badass. His backstory is of a badass, his actions are badass, He's Trump when Trump does things right.
    He spits in the face of North Korea/Horde with all the world to see, then makes a peace agreement between himself and them with the threat of wiping them out from existence if they step out of line. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT OUT OF AN ALLIANCE WARCRAFT HERO? HE HAS TWO SWORDS. HIS FINGER IS BIGGER THAN MY DICK.
    You've sold me on that one. Make the Alliance great again!

  15. #35
    Doesn’t anyone stay dead anymore? - Arthas from WC3

    ..... it has never been more true

  16. #36
    *Varian, Saurfang and Bolvar cautiously approach an idle sitting Sylvanas amongst the ruins of Bastion*
    Sylvanas: You could not live with your own failure.
    *Saurfang divides to the left with his axe and Doomhammer in hand while Varian with Shalamayne takes center and Bolvar to the right*
    Sylvanas: Where did that bring you?
    *Sylvanas hangs her head low, smirking as she ponders looking at the ground*
    Sylvanas: Back to me.
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Doesn’t anyone stay dead anymore? - Arthas from WC3

    ..... it has never been more true
    lol true...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You've sold me on that one. Make the Alliance great again!
    The Alliance is great. It's amazing. It's so great. Everything the dwarves do...so shiny. The Eleves are amazing. I speak Elvish btw. I wrote a book in Elvish.
    Dire Maul, great architecture. Gnomes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Doesn’t anyone stay dead anymore? - Arthas from WC3

    ..... it has never been more true

  19. #39
    OP, you bring up some valid points for sure. Everyone comes back after death through some method or another and nothing really matters. It's like the writers don't get that this isn't good writing or something.
    For me personally, it's every time the Horde and Alliance come together to defeat a bigger threat, then go right back to fighting. In MoP was when it got really bad but we had to come together to take down Garrosh, and then what do we do? GO RIGHT BACK TO FIGHTING. BfA is all about more needless fighting, and in 8.2.5, we come together once again to stop Sylvanas this time, to the point where we're signing a treaty, and yet Blizzard *STILL* wants us to continue fighting for no damn reason. This shit isn't clever in any way, it's something a 6 year old does in his imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Because Gul'dan blew him up with Fel Magic, which destroys souls (and therefore the person).
    So how come when I die to Destruction Warlocks and Demon Hunters, my soul isn't destroyed? /s
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    *Varian, Saurfang and Bolvar cautiously approach an idle sitting Sylvanas amongst the ruins of Bastion*
    Sylvanas: You could not live with your own failure.
    *Saurfang divides to the left with his axe and Doomhammer in hand while Varian with Shalamayne takes center and Bolvar to the right*
    Sylvanas: Where did that bring you?
    *Sylvanas hangs her head low, smirking as she ponders looking at the ground*
    Sylvanas: Back to me.
    Please no

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