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  1. #41
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    And no random Billy won't come back for dinner but at this point, someone could bring him back if they wanted to. Hell that would actually be an interesting quest, some mom reads up on some necro shit to bring her dead son back and he returns Khal Drogo style and we have to help her kill him.
    Now that would be cool.
    So you made a topic to complain about the triviality of death in WoW and how death should have meaning, only to literally minutes later suggest a quest where a mom resurrects her dead son that we have to kill because 'that would be cool'.

    Its like some of you don't even know what you want mid-complaining.
    Appreciate your time with friends and family while they're here. Don't wait until they're gone to tell them what they mean to you.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    Ah yes I remember that quest, it was on the west coast of the Wetlands with murlocs around right?
    Yeah I just don't remember the details, but I guess that explains it, though why it's such an obscure mention of such an important fact and not mentioned at all pre-ICC in wotlk is kinda weird as far as storytelling goes.
    I think it's because it doesn't really make sense when taken at face value. The Terenas statue depicts a young Paladin but Paladins were only a thing during and after the second war. Considering only 14 years passed between the Second and the Third War, it would be impossible for Terenas to be a "young Paladin" since Terenas more than 70 years old at the time of the Third War.
    This leaves us with basically four options:
    (1) The Statue depicts Arthas - but this begs the question why the player character and the quest giver would mistake it for Terenas, considering that they should also roughly know when the Paladin Order was founded
    (2) It's an oversight made by Blizzard
    (3) Paladins were around for a much longer time than we originally thought but it was reserved to a much smaller group of people and wasn't a real branch of military clerics
    (4) Terenas was depicted as a Paladin as some form of idealization

    This is what I really like about older lore. It's more ambiguous and leaves more things to the imagination of the players. Makes the world feel much more bigger and deeper.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-03-28 at 02:12 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, I agree. Even though Varian's death was well made and very impactful, it gets diminished by the fact that they show us his smiling ghost to tell us "he may be dead but he's fine so you don't need to feel bad about it". It takes away from the emotional weight. It's also why I think no fantasy universe should ever allow you to explore the afterlife.
    I never took it as literal but more as Anduin just seeing what he wanted to see or the light showing him what he wanted to see.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    I never took it as literal but more as Anduin just seeing what he wanted to see or the light showing him what he wanted to see.
    Fair enough.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Fair enough.
    But I absolutely agree with the sentiment. The afterlife being a physical place to visit just cheapens the whole weight of losing an important character. I can see the argument for undeath but only in certain circumstances.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    So you made a topic to complain about the triviality of death in WoW and how death should have meaning, only to literally minutes later suggest a quest where a mom resurrects her dead son that we have to kill because 'that would be cool'.

    Its like some of you don't even know what you want mid-complaining.
    Because in this case the kid wouldn't come back happy or as a ghost talking to us as if he never left, it would be a subject of horror and showing us why this is not something to be done lightly.

    But good job on the shitty analysis just to create some drama. I imagine the thread will go downhill from here thanks to shit like this.

  7. #47
    Elemental Lord
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    Well duh, Warcraft became next Dragon Ball years ago. Now we can even visit Afterlife, which is next logical step to be honest.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    But I absolutely agree with the sentiment. The afterlife being a physical place to visit just cheapens the whole weight of losing an important character. I can see the argument for undeath but only in certain circumstances.
    I mean, Undeath is just a big part of Warcraft lore at this point and it's probably one of the few they've handled not that badly in my opinion (up until BfA). But this is also why there needs to be a big difference between Undeath and life in Wacraft lore for it to make sense. If Undeath wasn't the most horrible, shitty way to exist then why wouldn't everyone want to see their loved ones return as Undead (except for some "irrational" anti-undead bigotry )?
    This is why characters like Calia Menethil are so detrimental to the lore. She serves no purpose but to diminish and blur the predefined characterstics of Undeath just to have her as a back-up plot device. She hella thicc tho.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-03-28 at 02:45 PM.

  9. #49
    This is how stories in persistent worlds work. The alternative is the good guys never die and the bad guys escape at the end of every episode.

    People who get attracted to a story favor those characters that the story started with. It happens, but it more rare that they get more attached to new characters. Blizzard has said as much, tough getting players as excited for new characters they created in WoW, versus characters from the RTS games. Marvel's said as much saying that's why they decided to change characters, like the new Iron Person; Spiderman; Thor type, etc. They noted that when they created new characters very few people bought those comics, so they just altered the old characters instead.

    So if you don't like type of story telling, where you have to suspend disbelief for your favorite characters to persist, comics & other types of persistent stories are probably not for you. Find a book or movie or game where the story begins and ends, then find another story.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    This is how stories in persistent worlds work. The alternative is the good guys never die and the bad guys escape at the end of every episode.

    People who get attracted to a story favor those characters that the story started with. It happens, but it more rare that they get more attached to new characters. Blizzard has said as much, tough getting players as excited for new characters they created in WoW, versus characters from the RTS games. Marvel's said as much saying that's why they decided to change characters, like the new Iron Person; Spiderman; Thor type, etc. They noted that when they created new characters very few people bought those comics, so they just altered the old characters instead.

    So if you don't like type of story telling, where you have to suspend disbelief for your favorite characters to persist, comics & other types of persistent stories are probably not for you. Find a book or movie or game where the story begins and ends, then find another story.
    Is it though? Warcraft pretty much tells closed stories that don't really rely on big characters. Those usually aren't the big selling point (except for expansions like Wotlk maybe). The world itself is much more important than the individual characters. No one plays WoW expecting some Marvel like super hero mashup though I guess that's what their marketing team is going for these days.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Is it though? Warcraft pretty much tells closed stories that don't really rely on big characters. Those usually aren't the big selling point (except for expansions like Wotlk maybe). The world itself is much more important than the individual characters. No one plays WoW expecting some Marvel like super hero mashup though I guess that's what their marketing team is going for these days.
    When they announce a main hero or big bad is someone we knew from W3 lore the Blizzcon audiance goes nuts, and the fan base is much more excited in the forums. For example, Illidan to Arthas to Deathwing....Illidan again.

    Introduce the big bad or main hero as a new guy and the reaction is more of a murmur. Players seems to be far more excited about the expansion when it's about a character they are already invested in.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer
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    I mean it’s a video game... it should never have any emotional hold anyways.

  13. #53
    I was starting to wonder if they weren't stealing story ideas from WestWorld. Sylvanis is Deloris? Lots of parallels, even though I am sure they aren't intentional.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    I was starting to wonder if they weren't stealing story ideas from WestWorld. Sylvanis is Deloris? Lots of parallels, even though I am sure they aren't intentional.
    That's always the question. The fine line between homage and ripoff. From the beginning you can easily make the argument that Warcraft was a ripoff of Tolkien and Lovecraft. To your question, it would not surprise me at all if they are being influenced by other stories, like WestWorld.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  15. #55
    I'm torn because seeing some familiar faces in Shadowlands is part of what's necessary to make the story impactful and not a WOD: so diverged from the core Azeroth story that I don't care about a damn person in it.

    I think the main thing is people should not just come home with us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  16. #56
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'm torn because seeing some familiar faces in Shadowlands is part of what's necessary to make the story impactful and not a WOD: so diverged from the core Azeroth story that I don't care about a damn person in it.

    I think the main thing is people should not just come home with us.
    The problem is the damage will already have been done plot-wise.



    I'm no writer but I feel that a sudden-death is made impactful by the fact that there's no closure. If we are able to get closure with those who died suddenly for whatever reason then it completely nullifies that aspect. Especially since we are most likely going to be spending years with them, even if they don't come back.
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    The problem is the damage will already have been done plot-wise.

    I'm no writer but I feel that a sudden-death is made impactful by the fact that there's no closure. If we are able to get closure with those who died suddenly for whatever reason then it completely nullifies that aspect. Especially since we are most likely going to be spending years with them, even if they don't come back.
    Well then how should they do it? I can only assume the Maw will be our source of impactful perma-soul-death even in the Shadowlands, with at least one major character being fed to it. Or maybe we just go by elemental plane/Argus rules, that it's their "home turf" if anyone dies in the SL their soul is destroyed.(except us obviously, we're special)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Doesn’t anyone stay dead anymore? - Arthas from WC3

    ..... it has never been more true
    Make a list of the mortal(i.e. no demons and such) lore characters that were definitely dead and returned to life. I think you will find it is much shorter than you imagine.

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Well then how should they do it? I can only assume the Maw will be our source of impactful perma-soul-death even in the Shadowlands, with at least one major character being fed to it. Or maybe we just go by elemental plane/Argus rules, that it's their "home turf" if anyone dies in the SL their soul is destroyed.(except us obviously, we're special)
    What I would've done if it were up to me would just make it so only those who originate in the Shadowlands can interact with the souls of the dead. Meaning, us and anyone who comes with us will not be able to talk or see the residents, just the 'staff' in this case.


    I think it would also open up interesting plotlines where we get manipulated to do XYZ to further a covenant's/individual's agenda under the guise of 'its what they would've wanted.'
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Make a list of the mortal(i.e. no demons and such) lore characters that were definitely dead and returned to life. I think you will find it is much shorter than you imagine.
    Already been made.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Merely_a_setback

    Dar'khan is my favorite. Burned to ashes, rezzed. Decapitated? Grow a new one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

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