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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    Honestly I no longer understand why they keep having a restriction on race/class. The factions have long since been intermingling to such a degree that you can find just about every combination out there and there's lore justification to explain literally any match up somehow.

    After how Tauren paladin and priest were made a thing I don't see how any other options remain taboo. Course that's more related to how the "light" got fleshed out to be multiple religious views all leading to "light" as a cosmic force (previously I think they talked about priests for non-humans/thalassians as some other organizations not related to "The Light" like forsaken being cult of shadows or something)
    Lore can always be created to explain anything, it's how WoW got to where its stories are today.

    Thing is there's still a large amount of people that value "tradition" and that's why it's comparatively slower shake it up. You get there eventually though, such as us finally having Troll Paladins, Tauren Paladins/priests, seeing the Void as "can be used for good not just bad" , all the new races we have and the more race/class combos than before (ie no Human Rangers at the beginning--as silly as that was).

    But there's still people who hold onto "tradition". I remember back when my best friend and I went to pick up our Cataclysm Collector's editions and there was a guy in the store talking about "it's so stupid how there's dwarf mages now."

    Some people just want the game to never move from a certain point, despite that being the foundation of MMOs -> to advance/change/improve.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    That would be awesome. Lynx cat form and Venus Fly Trap balance forms for Blood Elves.

    Crazy mutated Biolante-like forms for Void Elves.
    Haha yeh..

    Mage
    Druid
    Priest

    With phsycial
    Hunter
    Rogue


    A staple on all the elven races. Drudis reperesnts the nature love and its associated magic, whilst mage the arcane one, and priest ofc, the elven purity and devout state.

    I'm okay for the various elven groups to have different versions of each.

    Night elves /nightborne - magecraft based upon moon/star arcane spells - as their emphasis, preisthood on Elune, druidsm based on balance between arcane/nature - but well rounded in all aspects
    Blood elves - magecraft based on fire/sun and blood spells as their emphasis, Priesthood on the Holy Light, druidsm particularly focused on solar side, plant life and healing
    High/Void elves - magecraft based on frost and void, priesthood on the Light or void, druidsm focused on creatures and arcane side.



    Blood elves and night elves, but particularly night elven highborne should have the most rounded magical knowledge, whereas Void and nightborne elf more niche in arcane and void

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I'd accept either BE or Nightborne druids. I just want a druid option that doesn't look ugly. Tauren and trolls are really not my thing, I play humanoid races only.

    Lorewise I don't think it'd be too difficult to allow that. Just say that some elves started learning druidism from tauren. Just like how orcs learned arcane from the undead and became mages in Cataclysm. If I'm not mistaken there's even a druid camp at the entrance of Silvermoon.
    Those are all humanoid races, you mean human in appearance I would say.
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  4. #44
    Blood Elves should have both Druids and Shamans. They already showed the ability to be able to siphon magic from something and be able to use that magic as their own.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  5. #45
    Since an undead can be a holy priest, I do not understand why there are any race/class restrictions - other than not allowing Tauren to be rogues.

  6. #46
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Just think it's a little funny how some people are talking about how deep and connected to nature the Blood Elves are when the High Elves literally left the Night Elves because they wanted to practice/stay connected to magic and devolved into a race that is magic hungry...and got over only started to recover recently after the Sunwell was energized and is a mix of arcane and holy energy.

    Sounds very connected to nature to me

    They were connected/involved to almost every major type of magic...doesn't sound very nature tuned to me
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

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  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saichou View Post
    --- snip ---
    will make more sense than goblin shamans.

    Mod Edit: Don't quote a giant post for a one-sentence reply.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-03-31 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Removed Large Quote
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  8. #48
    Race-class restrictions have become garbage in WoW, blizzard should just remove them.

    We got panda death knights and mecha-gnome monks... just get rid of the remaining restrictions since it has all gone to hell.
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    Since an undead can be a holy priest, I do not understand why there are any race/class restrictions - other than not allowing Tauren to be rogues.
    Possibly because undead holy is a very rare thing, becoming more common since recent rvents, and in general blizzard dind't give races any restrictions to specs of a class they could have. So if forsaken were shadow priests, they could be priests, and have access to holy and discipline even though using the light is harmful to them.

    Blizzard also didn't adapt classes to races with unique names of spells or visuals - an option they could have done, as another example, the night elf priest has nothing about Elune in her spell set, because again she is given the standard priest class set - whcih is a Holy Light priest, same goes for Zandalari loa priests and paladins. Tidesges is a similar thing, seeing they are shaman/mage/priest combination yet the shaman class they can roll has nothing changeda bout it to reflect that.

    Basically in lore each race would have versions of the class you can play, and while the player has access to the 3 specs they give, remember even the specs aren't actually a lore thing, they're just a means for you to play, so are really an approximation.

    I look forward to when they decide to give class identities or skins that actually have lore faithful representations like Rangers, Moon Prists, Star Augurs, Blademasters etc where teh names of spells, visuals and aesthethic is altered to fit the racial theme these guys are from.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Possibly because undead holy is a very rare thing, becoming more common since recent rvents, and in general blizzard dind't give races any restrictions to specs of a class they could have. So if forsaken were shadow priests, they could be priests, and have access to holy and discipline even though using the light is harmful to them.

    Blizzard also didn't adapt classes to races with unique names of spells or visuals - an option they could have done, as another example, the night elf priest has nothing about Elune in her spell set, because again she is given the standard priest class set - whcih is a Holy Light priest, same goes for Zandalari loa priests and paladins. Tidesges is a similar thing, seeing they are shaman/mage/priest combination yet the shaman class they can roll has nothing changeda bout it to reflect that.

    Basically in lore each race would have versions of the class you can play, and while the player has access to the 3 specs they give, remember even the specs aren't actually a lore thing, they're just a means for you to play, so are really an approximation.

    I look forward to when they decide to give class identities or skins that actually have lore faithful representations like Rangers, Moon Prists, Star Augurs, Blademasters etc where teh names of spells, visuals and aesthethic is altered to fit the racial theme these guys are from.
    i think a certain part of it has to do with, can a being learn this craft? can they excel at it?

    for some states it might work well, like humans learning magic from elves. nathanos becoming a master archer. Arthas providing necromancy knowledge and power to his deathknights.

    in certain cases however it would be difficult, due to physical sense. like a tauren rogue.

    my point is, yes we can argue about how can a goblin become a shaman or a night elf learning magic but those are more...for lack of a better word, philosophical. night elves hated arcane but eventually came around and now they can. etc etc. but a tauren cant really remove its hooves lol.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Would be fair enough, however, Draenei already have a presence on the island as part of the Shattered Sun Offensive. High Elves already take pilgrimages to the Sunwell, as seen in the Quel'delar questline. And while Void Elves aren't welcome on the island anymore, they only had their access revoked when they proved that their presence was a physical danger to the Sunwell - the Void Elves were allowed an opportunity to go to the Sunwell initially, which seems to indicate that the Blood Elves don't consider it Horde territory as much as it is Neutral territory. And even in terms of literal game mechanics, the Isle of Quel'Danas is considered contested territory.
    Void elves weren't a thing until Alleria found them, which happened after her presence at the Sunwell caused the incident that showed the void was a threat. So they never could primgramage to the Sunwell in their void state.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Void elves weren't a thing until Alleria found them, which happened after her presence at the Sunwell caused the incident that showed the void was a threat. So they never could primgramage to the Sunwell in their void state.
    I believe you misread. I specified High Elves making pilgrimage to the Sunwell as a demonstration of Alliance that are currently accepted on the island, as seen by the NPCs https://www.wowhead.com/npc=38048/high-elf-pilgrim. Void Elves are still not welcome, but normal High Elves are - making the Sunwell still neutral territory.

  13. #53
    Dreadlord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I believe you misread. I specified High Elves making pilgrimage to the Sunwell as a demonstration of Alliance that are currently accepted on the island, as seen by the NPCs https://www.wowhead.com/npc=38048/high-elf-pilgrim. Void Elves are still not welcome, but normal High Elves are - making the Sunwell still neutral territory.
    probably neutral High Elves, with how the Silver Covenant massacred them and the 7th Legion Elves jeopardized the Horde campaign, it's more likely they're on the kill/arrest lists.
    Lightbound Orcs > High Elves https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ace-suggestion

    Blizzard should realize that Alteraci Humans will fulfill the Young Adult Dystopia Anarchy fantasy for Warcraft

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Just think it's a little funny how some people are talking about how deep and connected to nature the Blood Elves are when the High Elves literally left the Night Elves because they wanted to practice/stay connected to magic and devolved into a race that is magic hungry...and got over only started to recover recently after the Sunwell was energized and is a mix of arcane and holy energy.

    Sounds very connected to nature to me

    They were connected/involved to almost every major type of magic...doesn't sound very nature tuned to me
    The issue of leaving the night elves wasn't based on nature, we were instead exiled because we felt that we should start using the arcane again and start rebuilding society. Forming Quel'thalas or being forced to leave was not because of they preferred arcane over nature or anything like that. We wanted to build a socieyt where all magic would be practised freely and safely, (including the arcane ) without the recklesss irresponsibility of the Kaldorei

    Long vigil kaldorei state was not one of building civilization, families and trade, it was a military state of defense, protect - a mission style existence, and one handicapped by the inability to use the night elves' most powerful and natural tool, the arcane.


    We didn't devolve into a race that is magic hungry.. that twisting what happened, it was un-necessary to continue living in that pure long vigil state or not fix the issue with the use of magic drawing the legion. Darth'remar felt that a way could be found to use magic without alerting the Legion and that the Kaldorei would have learnt the lesson of reckless use and addiction and measures would be taken. Malfurion overall didn't agree, felt remnants of addiction pangs was stimulating Sunstrider to take such an un-necessary and reckless sounding risk. As a druid, he felt un-necesary because while life without arcane wasn't the incredible state it was before, the simpler existence was certainly liveable and enjoyable (he is a druid afterall), not optimal to many (considering how things were before - now we have an idea of what that was like for night elves with Suramar in-game and Zin'azshari in the cinematic), but not debilitating either. Why take a risk? (you can imagine him thinking of scenarios that would go beyond the control of the elves - like Satyrs, one rogue person developing an Azshara like complex, it's all that would take .. it would put the world at risk - the risk was too great just to "go back to civilization/using magic again"

    However, Darth'remar had a point, magic is the night elves most powerful tool (Tyrande concedes this when she lifts the ban 7,000 years later - after the legion has already returned and the vigil ended, but the night elves short on fire power in a world with more dangers around them than ever), Darth'remar must have seen what Illidan saw, a chance to do better than before with their magic. Except Malfurion was too cautious, and the feeling mongst the high elves is that their kin .


    Malfurion - "We don't actually have to use arcane magic now - it's too risky with the legion, threat we can live without it until "

    Darth'remar - "Forever? It's our most powerful tool, we have to continue life again, and what if they come back anyway? We're a lot less effective without it"

    Malfurion: "We can make sure they don't return by not using, were leaving a door open it we do, it's too risky - are you still itching to use the Well to badly?"

    Darth'remar "Ways can be found to prevent that, and we can be, no, we must be diligent appropriately, we are capable - the risk isn't as great as you think, and it's not about addiction, it's been 3,000 years, that passed after a few years - we have to look to a future for our people and secure against that threat returning.

    Malfurion: "We would open the door for them, if we did, are you so confident in infallibility highborne? Have you forgotten the catastrophe of the past? What hubris did to us? All it takes is one rogue individual"

    Darth'remar "Prejudice aside, we have all learnt from the past have we not, this si why our socity here is the best primed to shoulder this weighty responsibility and do right the way Azshara failed in the end. We have hindsight now, but we've languished like this enough, it is time to move on"

    Malfurion "No"

    Darth'remar - mutters "talk about difficult"

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Lore can always be created to explain anything, it's how WoW got to where its stories are today.
    I know... that's part of why I was going on about how I don't see why it's an issue and talked about how we've already got the worst "traditional blasphemes" out of the way (horde non-elf paladin and darnassian mages). For some reason those are allowed but then we can't see goblin/worgen monks which has been slapped onto literally every other race (except lightforged draenei).

    Hell the lore they used to argue the new class options can be reused over and over because "the races are intermingling for so long and are seeing what works" or whatever.

    The only exceptions were classes like death knight and demon hunter which had lore reasons for their creation that wasn't 'simple' (death and being raised or ritual alterations and demonic binding or whatever mostly covered during the special tutorial quest areas)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Thing is there's still a large amount of people that value "tradition" and that's why it's comparatively slower shake it up. You get there eventually though, such as us finally having Troll Paladins, Tauren Paladins/priests, seeing the Void as "can be used for good not just bad" , all the new races we have and the more race/class combos than before (ie no Human Rangers at the beginning--as silly as that was).

    But there's still people who hold onto "tradition". I remember back when my best friend and I went to pick up our Cataclysm Collector's editions and there was a guy in the store talking about "it's so stupid how there's dwarf mages now."

    Some people just want the game to never move from a certain point, despite that being the foundation of MMOs -> to advance/change/improve.
    The problem is more that the reasons for not putting something in now are getting very transperent and seem more about class populations or options Like we can't get more druid on one side without an option on the other and you can't have too many classes for some reason. Look at the threads about zandalari class options and why warlock and pally weren't exactly "set" for a long ass time for some reason (but Monk was locked in from almost the start?)... It's like they're trying to have game design and lore say things that don't agree

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I mean they have Druidic Runestones (hello Caer Darrow?) and so it's really sensible that they should be allowed to be Druids.
    Yeah, my opinion was there used to be high/blood elven druids, but the practice kinda died out. Druids do use arcane magic in some extent, so maybe around the WotA when they got banished there were druids who were more arcane-minded that both who got sent along with them. But then, kinda like with the Gilneans, the practice kinda died out and was all but forgotten.
    "Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer." Powerogue 2019

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    Since an undead can be a holy priest, I do not understand why there are any race/class restrictions - other than not allowing Tauren to be rogues.
    that one is more that they weren't imposing class' spec restrictions based on race. canonically, undead priest were deemed to be shadow priest... but cause that makes soooooo much sense (i.e. not at all) it just gets ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Yeah, my opinion was there used to be high/blood elven druids, but the practice kinda died out. Druids do use arcane magic in some extent, so maybe around the WotA when they got banished there were druids who were more arcane-minded that both who got sent along with them. But then, kinda like with the Gilneans, the practice kinda died out and was all but forgotten.
    not really. Druidism as the game has it was spawned entirely by Cenarius teaching Malfurion who then taught others... but this largely occurred after the sundering. Pre-wota Cenarius shared his knowledge with Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan. Tyrande didn't really take to it and well... we saw how Illidan turned out. Shadno Stormrage did eventually sit down and start training more druids as things went but this was after the exiling of the high born and imposing the long vigil.

    The game lore does pepper a bunch of "druidic" type things through out the game now but none of those seem to be associated with "druids"

    This could also be getting hung up on certain schools of thought or whatever, but per teh canon thus far. Malfurion was the first "Druid" and taught the rest but he wasn't teaching shit when the Legion invaded and the sundering occurred.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    that one is more that they weren't imposing class' spec restrictions based on race. canonically, undead priest were deemed to be shadow priest... but cause that makes soooooo much sense (i.e. not at all) it just gets ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -



    not really. Druidism as the game has it was spawned entirely by Cenarius teaching Malfurion who then taught others... but this largely occurred after the sundering. Pre-wota Cenarius shared his knowledge with Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan. Tyrande didn't really take to it and well... we saw how Illidan turned out. Shadno Stormrage did eventually sit down and start training more druids as things went but this was after the exiling of the high born and imposing the long vigil.

    The game lore does pepper a bunch of "druidic" type things through out the game now but none of those seem to be associated with "druids"

    This could also be getting hung up on certain schools of thought or whatever, but per teh canon thus far. Malfurion was the first "Druid" and taught the rest but he wasn't teaching shit when the Legion invaded and the sundering occurred.
    There's quite a few things wrong with what you said. Firstly, yaungol ancestors of the tauren had druids long before the kaldorei empire was a thing but lost their entire culture while enslaved by the mogu. Second, Cenarius taught the three before the War of the Ancients, not after it. Also the exile of the highborne wasn't until 2.7k years after the War. I'd find it very strange that he didn't teach anyone else in nearly 3,000 years? Don't believe me? There were already many other druids during the War of the Satyr which took place shortly after the War of the Ancients.
    "Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer." Powerogue 2019

  19. #59
    Bloodelf/Highelf and Nightborn elves being full druids as Nelf and tauren etc are? I can't really see that. But as a new Botanist class added? Yes, totally agree with that notion. A ranged class with DPS (Black Thumb), Healing (Green Thumb) and Utility/Support (Wildbloom) type specs? Leather armor, bows, 1h sword, etc. Maybe every 15 to 20 levels you get a new plant pet? Class quests to tender the seeds until the've grown to a full Lasher or Treant etc. Maybe a class specific mount of an animalisitc looking vine/plant thing?

    Too much I suppose
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There's quite a few things wrong with what you said. Firstly, yaungol ancestors of the tauren had druids long before the kaldorei empire was a thing but lost their entire culture while enslaved by the mogu.
    They had "druids" or nature magic practioners? I think you'll find sources saying they were taught something by cenarius and might have used "druidic" power of nature but that does not mean they were druids. I will liken this to seeing someone hurl a magical fire attack doesn't make them a mage or warlock or shaman.

    Though the handling of such details is one of a number of issues plaguing night elf lore because it's almost all retcons with different degrees of how badly they botch other lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Second, Cenarius taught the three before the War of the Ancients, not after it.
    Yes... Like I said... Cenarius taught Malfurion and Tyrande and Illidan before hand...
    edit to show I DID say this:
    Quote Originally Posted by yani9841 View Post
    Pre-wota (i.e. - "prior to war of the ancients") Cenarius shared his knowledge with Malfurion, Tyrande, and Illidan.
    but Malfurion is still credited as the first mortal druid and the main figure leading the subsequent groups that rose up as well as the primary force pushing the practice among the Kaldorei nation....

    Was he training druids during the war? Don't think we'll see any of that. Tyrande and Illidan? they did so much work with druidism

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Also the exile of the highborne wasn't until 2.7k years after the War. I'd find it very strange that he didn't teach anyone else in nearly 3,000 years? Don't believe me? There were already many other druids during the War of the Satyr which took place shortly after the War of the Ancients.
    This might be true, but then we have the vague area of assuming arcane minded and lack there of and their association with druidic teachings which has no real source and will only be fueled with assumptions based on old model choices that might not actually mean anything anymore.

    Then there are such lovely directions in art choice like high elves in northrend at a time when they shouldn't have existed...

    Overall, Elf lore, in hindsight, is much like Garrosh's cataclysm storyline. Too many people not bothering to look at each others' work and just saying "fuck it"

    edit again:

    Now lets wait and see what future alterations to chronicles and everything esle will do to make the current lore invalid ^.^ Cenarius really trained other groups we've never heard of? Another wild god gifting people with cosmic power/understanding that was really around us all along but no one saw it?

    No wait, the whole story is told from a biased perspective and we all just went along with it!

    edit once again:

    On the subject of the high born possibly learning druidism and then leaving as part of exile. This idea needs some more to back it up than just the time span to provide opportunity. Like how exactly some might have taken to druidism. The assumption would tend to be that Malfurion was trying to make more likeminded druids after his teaching and thus his followers over the time would likely NOT want to dabble in Arcane like those exiled and any biomancers or nature "arcanists" among those that left aren't "druids". It's a werd subject because we universally term magic users with certain names based of the school of magic rather than the school of thought but then define the term with the school of thought instead
    Last edited by yani9841; 2020-04-05 at 12:40 AM.

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