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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    War of the Ancients is dumber and still considered canon.
    Even that abomination known as Before the Storm is canon. With Sylvanas' inner monologue lying to the audience and to herself
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  2. #62
    Another myth is that Sylvanas started using mind-control in BfA with Derek. It's not, she was already mind-controlling undead as far back as Cataclysm. Evidence is Invasion of Gilneas and Battle of Andorhal, where ex-Alliance soldiers started yelling Forsaken war cries upon being raised.

    If anything, what is surprising is that people like Voss started being shocked by this only when she raised Derek. Did Voss not hear what Sylvanas was doing in Andorhal?
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  3. #63
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Another myth is that Sylvanas started using mind-control in BfA with Derek. It's not, she was already mind-controlling undead as far back as Cataclysm. Evidence is Invasion of Gilneas and Battle of Andorhal, where ex-Alliance soldiers started yelling Forsaken war cries upon being raised.

    If anything, what is surprising is that people like Voss started being shocked by this only when she raised Derek. Did Voss not hear what Sylvanas was doing in Andorhal?
    Exploiting the rage state of newly-raised Forsaken isn't explicitly mind control - it's not a good act by any means, but neither Sylvanas nor her Val'kyr were explicitly directing their actions beyond issuing marching orders. I'd argue the only evidence of "mind control" back in Cata were her plans for Koltira Deathweaver when she took him to the Undercity in an attempt to rid him of what she felt was "weakness." Though that too is probably less mind control and more torture coupled with brainwashing.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Exploiting the rage state of newly-raised Forsaken isn't explicitly mind control - it's not a good act by any means, but neither Sylvanas nor her Val'kyr were explicitly directing their actions beyond issuing marching orders. I'd argue the only evidence of "mind control" back in Cata were her plans for Koltira Deathweaver when she took him to the Undercity in an attempt to rid him of what she felt was "weakness." Though that too is probably less mind control and more torture coupled with brainwashing.
    "Beyon issuing marching orders" so telling them to kill their former comrades. Blizzard even said they were granted the usual choice Forsaken are given only after the battle was over, and of course only if they were not destroyed in the fighting. Sylvanas violated Forsaken free will long before she started messing with Derek.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  5. #65
    - Odyn being a good guy. He is basically a shiny Lich King.
    - Forsaken caring about enemies free will. Their whole war3 campain resolve around that.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-04-01 at 12:36 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Even that abomination known as Before the Storm is canon. With Sylvanas' inner monologue lying to the audience and to herself
    She outsmarted everyone else outsmarting. She was lying even to the writer because she knew her brain was being checked up at that moment.

  7. #67
    Isn't this all a myth though?
    Be willing to serve and build up others at any cost. Never be a man of laziness and self absorption. Be willing to grow daily in integrity, strength, and boldness.

  8. #68
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "Beyon issuing marching orders" so telling them to kill their former comrades. Blizzard even said they were granted the usual choice Forsaken are given only after the battle was over, and of course only if they were not destroyed in the fighting. Sylvanas violated Forsaken free will long before she started messing with Derek.
    Those were the marching orders in question, yes. When Forsaken are initially raised they are basically in a state of confusion and rage, unable to tell friend from foe for the most part and easily exploitable due to their confusion with their new state. The in-game heel-face turn is basically how this is shown. After this state passes and sanity more or less returns, they're then supposed to be offered the choice of whether to remain with the Forsaken, return to the grave, or strike off on their own (after repaying the debt of being raised).

    Whether this exploitation is a violation of free will is a bit murkier, in my view - but violating a person's free will isn't itself tantamount to explicit mind control, either. I think Sylvanas rather brutally exploited the newly-raised Forsaken in the Western Plaguelands, as well as at Cross Island in Silverpine, but I don't think her or her Val'kyr were mind-controlling them in the same manner of the Scourge. Whether or not this is a mitigating circumstance is anyone's guess.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #69
    Seeing this troll banned is certainly one of brighter points of today.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-04-01 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Those were the marching orders in question, yes. When Forsaken are initially raised they are basically in a state of confusion and rage, unable to tell friend from foe for the most part and easily exploitable due to their confusion with their new state. The in-game heel-face turn is basically how this is shown. After this state passes and sanity more or less returns, they're then supposed to be offered the choice of whether to remain with the Forsaken, return to the grave, or strike off on their own (after repaying the debt of being raised).

    Whether this exploitation is a violation of free will is a bit murkier, in my view - but violating a person's free will isn't itself tantamount to explicit mind control, either. I think Sylvanas rather brutally exploited the newly-raised Forsaken in the Western Plaguelands, as well as at Cross Island in Silverpine, but I don't think her or her Val'kyr were mind-controlling them in the same manner of the Scourge. Whether or not this is a mitigating circumstance is anyone's guess.
    I see your point. I guess I should have worded it better. She was never against violating free will if it served her cause, despite claiming that Forsaken free will is the cornerstone of their society.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  11. #71
    Epic! Redroniksre's Avatar
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    The problem with WoW lore is that is changes so frequently to serve gameplay purposes. There is nothing that is really nailed down as unable to change. This makes it practically useless to debate it with people on here, since a lot of people don't update their knowledge of it. Take the Old Gods one, back in vanilla they stated that killing them would destroy Azeroth. Then their deaths were reaffirmed during the Cataclysm Q&A where they said Yogg and C'thun deaths were partially responsible for the Cataclysm. They then later go back on the whole destroying Azeroth thing and say "Actually it is only -if- they are tugged out like Aman'thul did to Y'shaarj". But even after all that we still had people all the way back in the vanilla lore arguing their survival and avatar state.

  12. #72
    Let's just say this: Blizzard can't write a cohesive story anymore since firing their original writers.

    They are actively scrambling to pick up the work of another writer. They're trying to fill in the blanks with developers and writers that haven't even heard of a Blizzard game until the day they got hired.

  13. #73
    The Patient guisadop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephys View Post
    Usually people who scream "retcon" are just lacking on their knowledge about the lore. Don't get me wrong, wow's lore was never that great, it has some interesting stories, but most of it is quite bad, but saying that its impossible to discuss it because of retcons is just lack of knowledge or closemindness.
    It's not impossible, it's just pointless since nothing is safe from the retcon machine, especially if you're debating WHAT is or isn't canon.

    Let's just say this: Blizzard can't write a cohesive story anymore since firing their original writers.

    They are actively scrambling to pick up the work of another writer. They're trying to fill in the blanks with developers and writers that haven't even heard of a Blizzard game until the day they got hired.
    Blizzard trying to write reminds me of Microsoft trying to improve Windows. It's all just legacy code/lore written by people who mostly already left and the new guys trying to make some sense of it with little success.
    Last edited by guisadop; 2020-04-01 at 01:29 PM.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

  14. #74
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I see your point. I guess I should have worded it better. She was never against violating free will if it served her cause, despite claiming that Forsaken free will is the cornerstone of their society.
    OR
    that was her cata phase, the only phase she actually was starting to care about her ppl (even in novel), before blizz sh8t on it and decided to nah let's make her flat out a villain
    I still feel disgust they even want to retcon the most popular iconic wow quest - battle for undercity - just to make it sound like she 'planned it all along' to make her look 'smart', yeah so smart she almost died, genius...
    its the problem that - using exact quot from Alex Afrasiabi - "half of the team didn't get the memo", also he was talking about Garrosh, it is the most retarded quote ever in entire wow lore department history, half of lore team responsible for pandas didn't notice the other half who was working on cata for 2 entire years and still went with yeah garrosh is evil plan, probably they were smoking weed for 2 years to miss it
    I bet it is same story in Sylvanas, let's use her as villain ok 'kool' ?

    This is blizz way to handle lore, also blizz is only the 2nd biggest gaming company in entire world
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    For the majority of the theories you named there, it is too early to judge whether they are wrong or not. For some it is vague because it is up for interpretation. You cannot judge it simply by the title. Wanna try going argument by argument for each separate video?

    And in the end, as I said, they are simply theories. Nothing wrong with some of them being wrong. The Chronicle topic however was a very personal one for him, as he had been criticized for it many times and he was very convinced in his claims. And they turned out to be true. Of course he will get passionate about it.

    Also he has openly admitted to being wrong about some things in some of his videos. His channel is all about speculation. The infinite possibilities. It doesn't matter if it turns out to be true or not in the end. He considers a possibility and lays down the argumentation for it to us. Him being wrong isn't anything newsworthy. Him being correct however is impressive because he does come up with some innovative and outrageous ideas/theories and most people doubt him.
    @Shinrael, the atheist, trying with all his might prove that the bible is wrong and is not cannon (lol), while at the same time praying and blindly believing in his true lord and savior Pyro. This thread is fun.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-04-01 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    For the majority of the theories you named there, it is too early to judge whether they are wrong or not. For some it is vague because it is up for interpretation. You cannot judge it simply by the title. Wanna try going argument by argument for each separate video?

    And in the end, as I said, they are simply theories. Nothing wrong with some of them being wrong. The Chronicle topic however was a very personal one for him, as he had been criticized for it many times and he was very convinced in his claims. And they turned out to be true. Of course he will get passionate about it.

    Also he has openly admitted to being wrong about some things in some of his videos. His channel is all about speculation. The infinite possibilities. It doesn't matter if it turns out to be true or not in the end. He considers a possibility and lays down the argumentation for it to us. Him being wrong isn't anything newsworthy. Him being correct however is impressive because he does come up with some innovative and outrageous ideas/theories and most people doubt him.
    Like which of those is too early to tell if its not more than half its not majority.

    And person loses his credibility among his peers if he keeps making theories which end up being wrong and had only 2 right ones as such after he kept making theories in legion which ended up being false he has lost all credibility.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by guisadop View Post
    It's not impossible, it's just pointless since nothing is safe from the retcon machine, especially if you're debating WHAT is or isn't canon.



    Blizzard trying to write reminds me of Microsoft trying to improve Windows. It's all just legacy code/lore written by people who mostly already left and the new guys trying to make some sense of it with little success.
    The please give me an example of a retcon, and I asure you that I can explain to you why it is just your lack of knowledge on the subject.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    another myth: Taurens will give milk if you milk them, no Karen that's not milk, that's why it smells funny.

    MYTH CONFIRMED.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Even that abomination known as Before the Storm is canon. With Sylvanas' inner monologue lying to the audience and to herself
    Which part? I remember "I didn't really want to be warchief, I'd rather do stuff in the shadows like I'm used to." paraphrased. I don't see how that's contradicted in-game. Both were written by the same person. The only contradictions I've found are between people's headcanons that desperately tried to warp her actions as justified and the following expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Did Voss not hear what Sylvanas was doing in Andorhal?
    Not sure why she would. The player was the only witness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephys View Post
    The please give me an example of a retcon, and I asure you that I can explain to you why it is just your lack of knowledge on the subject.
    Well the most obvious one is that the Eredar originally corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around. I'm curious how you'll explain away that one since Metzen came out and said that it was a slip-up on his part.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Metzen_on_lore

    Right… To be totally up-front with you guys, it’s my bad, straight up. The obvious lore contradiction with Sargeras and his encounter with the eredar was clearly documented in the Warcraft III manual. I wrote those bits about four years ago, and to be totally honest, I simply forgot. Genius, right? With my excitement to get the draenei up to speed and root them more firmly in the setting, I forgot to do my homework and go back over my earlier writing. I can assure you, no one’s more crushed about this mistake than I am. I’ve spent the last few days kicking my own ass over this one. Sucks to fail. It may not always be evident, but we take this story stuff really seriously at Blizzard. It’s been one of my personal missions at this company to maintain a high level of integrity throughout the Warcraft game setting (all of them, actually) and I think we’ve done a pretty decent job of upholding the continuity over the years.

  20. #80
    "and I think we’ve done a pretty decent job of upholding the continuity over the years."

    Metzen, I love ya, and I wouldn't read quest text and avoid skipping cutscenes if I didn't enjoy this story most of the time, but no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

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