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  1. #1

    Everything past Vanilla wow is bad.

    Everything past Vanilla is bad.

    Watch this video (He is 100% right)

    [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF...v=9MNFWhCw8dg)

    Focus on raiding actually became a curse as he said. When they catered to that small demographic and the even smaller demographic of autistic people who think MMO PVP should be a esport (and I was one of those idiots at one point), the game got ruined. I'm not saying it's all Blizzard's fault either. Loudmouths on forums are just as responsible asking for idiocy like arena. A lot of the mistakes was catering to what they thought was the majority.

    TBC had too much difference in gear level, too many raids and too big a gear carousel, that isn't even worth it for pvp players because resilience was stupid. At everything else? It's a really bad MMO. World PvP doesn't exist. Community was awful outside your guild and non existent and cross realm BG's also added to this. TBC had the precursor to LFD, it's just most people didn't use it because the heroics were so darn hard at first. No Wintergrasp to try to make up for lack of wpvp. It was flawed, but at least something similar. Not alt friendly at all. Small world that sucks compared to old Azeroth and made smaller due to flying. Dailies that are done by zombies that suck to try to make up for the fact they killed organic content that happened on the way to dungeons without flight or farming in the world. Again I'm not saying WOTLK is a great MMO, it just does all these dumb minigames better than TBC.

    Vanilla WoW was more than just a PVE raiding game, its about WORLD and organic content. TBC isn't. It's small, limited and shallow.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Everything past Vanilla is bad.

    Watch this video (He is 100% right)

    [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF...v=9MNFWhCw8dg)

    Focus on raiding actually became a curse as he said. When they catered to that small demographic and the even smaller demographic of autistic people who think MMO PVP should be a esport (and I was one of those idiots at one point), the game got ruined. I'm not saying it's all Blizzard's fault either. Loudmouths on forums are just as responsible asking for idiocy like arena. A lot of the mistakes was catering to what they thought was the majority.

    TBC had too much difference in gear level, too many raids and too big a gear carousel, that isn't even worth it for pvp players because resilience was stupid. At everything else? It's a really bad MMO. World PvP doesn't exist. Community was awful outside your guild and non existent and cross realm BG's also added to this. TBC had the precursor to LFD, it's just most people didn't use it because the heroics were so darn hard at first. No Wintergrasp to try to make up for lack of wpvp. It was flawed, but at least something similar. Not alt friendly at all. Small world that sucks compared to old Azeroth and made smaller due to flying. Dailies that are done by zombies that suck to try to make up for the fact they killed organic content that happened on the way to dungeons without flight or farming in the world. Again I'm not saying WOTLK is a great MMO, it just does all these dumb minigames better than TBC.

    Vanilla WoW was more than just a PVE raiding game, its about WORLD and organic content. TBC isn't. It's small, limited and shallow.
    The first zone you walk into after entering THE DARK PORTAL has a huge road made of bones. Thats all I need.

  3. #3
    What a unique and fresh opinion...

  4. #4
    Expansions can't replicate the huge world that vanilla WoW introduced, but they do bring many of the necessary changes to make the game a lot better. TBC and WotLK did a lot of great things in that regard.

  5. #5
    Four year old video by Kungen, an ex-pro WoW player whose greatest days were in Vanilla/TBC. Call me cynical but there might be a slight bias there.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Four year old video by Kungen, an ex-pro WoW player whose greatest days were in Vanilla/TBC. Call me cynical but there might be a slight bias there.
    also he was pro back in the day when those ''pros'' would literaly backpaddle and click as seen by videos of them doing naxx,its like being the best at beating small kids when you are older,in wod kungen was stuck in hellfire,because those smaller ''kids'' grew up and got better,kungen didnt

  7. #7
    Vanilla wow had some really unpolished/incomplete class design.
    A lot of classes and specs were half baked, with a ton of stuff that was pointless and so bad you could never make it work for anything except memes.

    TBC improved a lot upon that and imho is a more-or-less direct upgrade to vanilla.
    WOTLK started implementing some questionable choices and the whole LFD/LFG was a big mistake.
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Everything past Vanilla is bad.

    Watch this video (He is 100% right)

    [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF...v=9MNFWhCw8dg)

    Focus on raiding actually became a curse as he said. When they catered to that small demographic and the even smaller demographic of autistic people who think MMO PVP should be a esport (and I was one of those idiots at one point), the game got ruined. I'm not saying it's all Blizzard's fault either. Loudmouths on forums are just as responsible asking for idiocy like arena. A lot of the mistakes was catering to what they thought was the majority.

    TBC had too much difference in gear level, too many raids and too big a gear carousel, that isn't even worth it for pvp players because resilience was stupid. At everything else? It's a really bad MMO. World PvP doesn't exist. Community was awful outside your guild and non existent and cross realm BG's also added to this. TBC had the precursor to LFD, it's just most people didn't use it because the heroics were so darn hard at first. No Wintergrasp to try to make up for lack of wpvp. It was flawed, but at least something similar. Not alt friendly at all. Small world that sucks compared to old Azeroth and made smaller due to flying. Dailies that are done by zombies that suck to try to make up for the fact they killed organic content that happened on the way to dungeons without flight or farming in the world. Again I'm not saying WOTLK is a great MMO, it just does all these dumb minigames better than TBC.

    Vanilla WoW was more than just a PVE raiding game, its about WORLD and organic content. TBC isn't. It's small, limited and shallow.
    The game was never more Raid or Die then in Vanilla so your point 1 go rights out the window.
    World PvP in Vanilla stopped existing the moment an alternative was introduced in bg's. The people made their preference very much known, the moment there was an alternative to the South Shore/Tarren Mill back and forth it disappeared forever.

    The Community exists because people are people. The game has little to do with it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    also he was pro back in the day when those ''pros'' would literaly backpaddle and click as seen by videos of them doing naxx,its like being the best at beating small kids when you are older,in wod kungen was stuck in hellfire,because those smaller ''kids'' grew up and got better,kungen didnt
    AFAIK he was still very competitive in pro scene when he came back. Assuming pro players were stupid back in Vanilla is just wrong.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Koward View Post
    AFAIK he was still very competitive in pro scene when he came back. Assuming pro players were stupid back in Vanilla is just wrong.
    Everyone was stupid in vanilla, pro players included. We just didn't know better because there was nothing to compare with. Looking back its obvious and classic aided in exposing a lot of it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #11
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    What a unique and fresh opinion...
    It is also a convoluted mess. I had written out a reply and then just deleted it. OP is all over the place. I really don't get the point.

    Yeah the point is "Everything past Vanilla wow is bad" - the examples and "arguments" are just so shit, random and contradicting. I mean..if "focus on raiding became a curse" - what the hell did everyone do in Vanilla? Oh...I know...I focused on raidng, because except for pvp (which I also did) there wasn't really much.

    ...and I don't even think Vanilla succeeded in focussing on raiding, because so few ppl did it. So I still wonder what everyone did.

    Maybe having no clue and hardly any website to tell you what to do as well as few addons and 60 long levels to go through was what kept ppl busy?

    Well...these days are gone and won't come back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Expansions can't replicate the huge world that vanilla WoW introduced, but they do bring many of the necessary changes to make the game a lot better. TBC and WotLK did a lot of great things in that regard.
    IMHO - If Blizzard wanted it, an expansion could do that. I still think the biggest "problem" would be that everything would be data mined, put on websites, analysed and the most streamlined path posted.

    Also: Imagine Blizzard truly made an x-pac that took ppl like me the same 17 days /played to max level as it took me in 2005 o_O (which is pretty much crazy already, because there is no way ppl spend so much time to gain 10 more levels and no way Blizzard would add 60 levels in an x-pac)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The game was never more Raid or Die then in Vanilla so your point 1 go rights out the window.
    World PvP in Vanilla stopped existing the moment an alternative was introduced in bg's. The people made their preference very much known, the moment there was an alternative to the South Shore/Tarren Mill back and forth it disappeared forever.

    The Community exists because people are people. The game has little to do with it.
    Also: This.

  12. #12
    The heck does "organic content" even mean?

    And we've seen that, without the critical ingredient of "nobody knows what they're doing", re-releasing vanilla doesn't create the same experience. (Still a unique and interesting one, but not the same.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The game was never more Raid or Die then in Vanilla so your point 1 go rights out the window.
    I think that is already a rather ignorant statement.
    Classic WoW, despite what a lot of people want to believe, is not a endgame focused game.

    The majority of content within Vanilla is the leveling content, that is where most of the effort went into, this is where the classes feel truly different.
    If you obviously skip past that via boosting or Spell / Melee cleave groups, that's your own thing.

    It was the "casual MMO" and most people simply spent their time leveling, for quite a long time.
    If it took you 4-5 months, that is a reasonable amount of time spent on the game (and sub money for Blizzard).

    The quality of the actual raids are a testament to this, neither BWL nor MC are high quality raids, MC was cobbled together within a week.
    Naxx is the only "high quality" raid of Vanilla - which they promptly re used in Wotlk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The heck does "organic content" even mean?
    If i were to guess (without watching the video), then it's probably content designed in a more "fantasy first, convenience second" fashion.
    Dungeons like BRD, it was designed as the capitol of the Dark Iron Nation, with a Prison, Arena, more civillians quarters, a military section, manufacturing, a bar, etc..
    It really lives up to the fantasy of a dwarven city under a huge volcano.

    More modern dungeons try to also live up to a certain fantasy, but they're more restricted in design, they always have like 3-5 bosses and should on average only require like 20-40 minutes at most to clear, whereas in Classic, these restriction did not exist, that's why every Classic dungeon is so unique in terms of design (ignoring the Scarlet Monastery wings).
    Even something simple as "you first have to do a handful of quests in order to acquire quests that send you into the dungeon" is also rather "organic", because they make sense within the context of the world.
    You first have to investigate who actually the leader of the Defias is before the questgiver will hand you a quest to bring you the head of its leader, as opposed to the guy simply waiting within the dungeon with knowledge on who or what to kill.

    That change in terms of dungeon design already happened in TBC, there is a clear philosophy shift between TBC and Classic dungeons.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-03-29 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Four year old video by Kungen, an ex-pro WoW player whose greatest days were in Vanilla/TBC. Call me cynical but there might be a slight bias there.
    Lmao my first thought was "is this the Kungen video?" before clicking or scrolling down. Good to see the confirmation.

  15. #15
    Thank god for TBC. Best game ever made. Also, imagine thinking Kungen's opinion matters, he was garbage at the game.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    So you're saying it's bad because you don't enjoy raiding or PvP?
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think that is already a rather ignorant statement.
    Classic WoW, despite what a lot of people want to believe, is not a endgame focused game.

    The majority of content within Vanilla is the leveling content, that is where most of the effort went into, this is where the classes feel truly different.
    If you obviously skip past that via boosting or Spell / Melee cleave groups, that's your own thing.

    It was the "casual MMO" and most people simply spent their time leveling, for quite a long time.
    If it took you 4-5 months, that is a reasonable amount of time spent on the game (and sub money for Blizzard).

    The quality of the actual raids are a testament to this, neither BWL nor MC are high quality raids, MC was cobbled together within a week.
    Naxx is the only "high quality" raid of Vanilla - which they promptly re used in Wotlk.
    I played Vanilla. I didn't bother with Classic because I know it can't recreate what I want without wiping my memory. But thank you for assuming.

    And the OP is obviously talking about more then just the levelling experience. He makes the claim that after Vanilla WoW became to Raiding focused while pretty much the entire focus on Vanilla after levelling lay on Raiding and very little non-raiding non-pvp content was added over its lifetime.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #18
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The heck does "organic content" even mean?
    Vegetables!
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    It is also a convoluted mess. I had written out a reply and then just deleted it. OP is all over the place. I really don't get the point.
    Not just that...but he's using a 4 year old video to single-out an expansion that was released a decade even before that.

    It's like "yeah, we get it...you don't like TBC...but it's been almost 15 years..time to get over it."

  20. #20
    I mean... you can meme all you want about "Lol Kungen" or whatever else you're throwing out without actually taking into consideration the points that are being made.

    A lot of the arguments I'm seeing against this post is that TBC and WotLK introduced a lot of good things on TOP OF the negative things, and that these positives heavily outweighed the negatives. That's kinda the main point of Classic + though. Why not push for a version of the game where you get the good class balance but you also keep the WORLD as a main staying point. You can go to Outland and enjoy all of that content but it doesn't make Classic content irrelevant. Or at least not AS irrelevant.

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