WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Rogue Karl]

Wasn't perfect, but it was far better and wasn't very extreme with the item level, it was just +7.

You also had a reason to farm Valor Points as well through the entire expansion without being tedious.
There was a cap at 1000 each week, unlike with AP where there is no real limit.

I'm tired of poor design excusing terrible design. Things should just revert back to tbc loot presunwell.

[Dalheim]

I'm tired of poor design excusing terrible design. Things should just revert back to tbc loot presunwell.

I can't give an opinion on that I'm afraid, since I started with the release of Cataclysm, and the only thing I saw in TBC was Dun Morogh and Loch Modan on a trial account.

[david0925]

I don't have an issue if there is a currency system that everyone can cap that can be used to increase the ilvl of your gear, and that currency can drop anywhere from world quest to mythic raiding. That gives you control and steady progression. Normal can drop base 500 and takes triple the effort to level to 550, while Mythic can drop base 540 and only need one leveling to 550.

I do have an issue with artificially inflating the ilvl through strict RNG, and I am speaking as someone that got lucky with a few key pieces of gear. Maybe you think it's fun to proc a mythic level piece of gear while doing normal, I don't think it's ok to award gear like that, and much less without a single bit of control. Higher "tier" activity like Mythic raiding and high-level RBG/Arena takes much more coordination, dedication, and "skill" that the reward SHOULD be better. If your issue is about lack of character progression doing easy things (which I would also debate that you don't need the gear, but also understand that it feels bad to hit a cap so easily), then my proposal above should be completely fine for you.

As far as Corruption system, philosophically it is actually a very good system if they handled it right, but of course they didn't, intentionally or not.

[Zyrinx]

I just hate that you can get corrupted stuff before you get your cloak, and unlock the ability to remove it.

Go a sweet 420 weapon on a baby alt, can't use it cuz it's 60 corruption. That cloak quest just sucks by the 5 th or 10th time, mini skips be damned.

[epLe]

Blaming people who wanted TF removed for Corruption is beyond moronic.

Blizzard would never implement corruption if it wasnt for those people.

[unbound]

WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression.

There we go. This is the start of understanding the major problem with Retail WoW.

To push a bit further to fully appreciate, focus less at the beginning of that sentence, and focus more on the middle of that sentence.

"...same content over and over..."

That's the part. That's what a lot more people need to yell at Blizz about. That is, in reality, the true difference between the peak days of WoW (Vanilla, BC, Wrath) and today.

Blizz used to be very clear about the reason for the monthly fee. It was supposed to pay for additional content. Notice that Blizz doesn't talk about that part anymore...

[Dizzeeyooo]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade.

When classes were still fun to play in general, playing the game with "completed" gear was actually when the real fun began - it's understandable why people who started wow in wod/legion would find this a completely alien concept though, since that was when the concept of completed gear was removed.

[xuros]

WF/TF was not fine. It was an awful, terrible dumb fucking system that ruined two entire expansions. Good riddance.

Eh, it worked just fine for me. My only issue was getting the right gear slot with the right stats in that worthless chest on Tuesday mornings. Other than that I had fairly good luck with raid gear socketing and WF/TFing.

[Dejiko]

Not a fan of either system.
I miss when you were able to simply upgrade an item with valor points.

WF/TF more often than not left me with a feeling of "dang, if only this
item magically improved itself for no reason".

Corruption is just a mess.
Too many benefitial effects that i have no way of influencing how i aquire, the game
chooses what effect is on the item without requiring any input from me at all.

Can i get an item that lets me benefit more from haste?
Maaaaaybe, maybe not, who knows, i sure don`t and i have no idea
how i could get one beyond just farming and crossing my fingers, hoping
for the best.

If you told me i could say run Tol Dagor for a shoulder cloth piece with haste, then do other activites
to accumulate upgrade points, spend said points to improve the stats on the item at a vendor of sorts.
That would make it far more enjoyable.

[Elodeon]

I agree, I kinda miss warforging/titanforging. No boss was completely a dead end in terms of upgrades - theoretically almost any boss could still drop an upgrade. Now the most it can do is drop a corrupted item which you can't use because you're already at whatever is your chosen corruption cap.

I'm also firmly of the opinion that the preferences of the top 1% of mythic players should be ignored and, if anything, they should be kicked from the game. The game should be designed around people who enjoy playing it, not around people who make it their job.

[Kolvarg]

WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression.

I wouldn't really classify WF/TFing as "character progression". Certainly not very meaningful.

With that said, the main incentive should be that you just enjoy playing. The secondary incentive should be the gear itself, and it really isn't that bad for it to be a finite obtainable goal. The already-existing RNG of loot drops + having to share them with the raid is enough to make the content last a good while.

I would argue what you need after farming a raid tier for half a year is new content, not incentives to continue playing the same content for X months. You're literally asking to chase a carrot at the end of a stick, instead of just asking for a better carrot at the end of the road, or just a more fun road to walk in.


Don't get me wrong, it's fine to have that preference if that's yours. But for many people it's a huge turn off that feels more like playing a WoW-themed slot machine than an actual RPG. And if I get to pick between a better game that isn't as replayable or a worse game that's more replayable, I'll pick the better game any day.

Personally I wouldn't necessarily eliminate WF/TF, I'd just re-introduce a currency system (like Valor Points) and have WF/TF essentially be a small chance of the loot dropping already upgraded. Meaning you'd still get some exciting small chance drops, but if you didn't you could just work towards getting it anyway through valor points.

It's not a flawless system, but imo it's a good compromise / best of both worlds kind of deal.

[Edward Wu]

Blizzard would never implement corruption if it wasnt for those people.

Yeah, Blizzard would never have implemented a system more rife with rng than TF ever was if it weren't for people constantly complaining about TF because they hated its rng.

You're very intelligent.

[BeepBoo]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade.

People who actually like just playing the game for the sake of playing the game. What a novel concept. You kjnow, most FPSs you don't have character progression. You get a gun. Boom. Done. A lot of FPSs are still way more fun than 95% of wow, because you actually have to be awake to participate.

Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item;

I don't. I care that our second place ret got lucky and got better gear than myself, making him look better by comparison than he actually is. My motivation isn't character progression. It's epeen stroking and just straight killing raid bosses.

Tough luck, cause in doing so they’ve made 80% of the content in the game go from relevant to completely obsolete. Blizzard seems to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot to appease snowflakes

Good! 80% of the "content" in the game is pathetic and I shouldn't be getting anything from it. Being able to get something from doing it means someone out there WILL, which means if I want the best shot at being competitive, I need to be grinding 24x7, going back and doing all the things I hate that I graduated from. Not interested.

Or you could, you know, display some self control and accept when enough is good enough?

Not how people who actually like to achieve things work. Not how people who are competitive work. Games should be designed to save people from themselves and remove retarded avenues for advancement that encourage nolyfing.

Thing is the people who aren't casual and are wannabe hardcore have no self control and agonize over every percent they're "behind."

Yes. And?

Besides the fury of the raidloggers, who don't want to play the game.

As opposed to the fury of WalkingSim players who enjoy bottom tier faceroll easy content? You mean those people that don't want to play the ACTUAL game? The juicy, challenging stuff where you actually have to demonstrate you have a brain?

Here's the thing: wow would still be fun and engaging without the leveling experience. It just needs the big end-game activities to really be a game, even if it wouldn't be an MMO any more. However, take out raiding, high rated PvP, difficult dungeons, etc, and suddenly wow becomes the most generic, boring-assed game I've ever played that I'd demand a refund over in 5 seconds flat.

[Eazy]

Reality : This LFR dude get this trinket that i couldn't even get in mythic raiding. SO UNFAIR!
Reality : The is no practical situation in which a LFR + WQ player would even remotely out perform you overall, not even close, if you raid mythic.

And said "lucky" LFR+WQ player insist to focus on LFR + WQ only and hope to out perform a mythic raider. He would be doing 2023245574782103421387845 WQ. real math!

And also reality: someone does the same content and me but gets better gear.

Imagine(for example) that someone gives you paycheck, after a hard work you get ~3k$. But your coworker gets his paycheck titanforged and gets +1k$ bonus and also a 2 day vacation for the same thing.

About the LFR guys getting beter items - I don't care if he can outperform me or not(though that's also isn't impossible, people with better gears have much higher probability of beating other players), someone doesn't deserve better item for doing easier difficulty. Simple as that.

[RoKPaNda]

Wf tf was terribly flawed and a negative for the game. There shouldn't be a variety of power rewards for completing the same content it hinders progression and turns the entire communities mindset into grind= good.

Corruption is worse but let's not pretend this isn't a argument between awful and terrible.

I mean you're wrong, but that's not really relevant. It was very popular with the casuals, and it only became problematic when people obsessed over it. It was a nice treat when it happened, but WoW's community isn't mature enough to handle that.

It's not relevant though because Valor was a complete piece of shit of a system, in any one of its implementations, and people still wax poetic about it.

[Mardux]

And also reality: someone does the same content and me but gets better gear.

Imagine(for example) that someone gives you paycheck, after a hard work you get ~3k$. But your coworker gets his paycheck titanforged and gets +1k$ bonus and also a 2 day vacation for the same thing.

About the LFR guys getting beter items - I don't care if he can outperform me or not(though that's also isn't impossible, people with better gears have much higher probability of beating other players), someone doesn't deserve better item for doing easier difficulty. Simple as that.

Imagine doing content to only have higher ilvl than the other people in your group and not to clear the content as a group. Imaging not caring that someone else in your group getting gear will help the group kill shit faster or kill harder shit.

[Ragnarohk]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

The incentive to keep playing should be "because I like what I'm doing" and not just an endless treadmil of gear. WF/TF and Corruption are terrible systems

[BeepBoo]

Imagine doing content to only outperform the other people in your group and not to clear the content as a group. Imaging not caring that someone else in your group getting gear will help the group kill shit faster or kill harder shit.

Why not both? Killing the boss is virtually guaranteed at some point when a tier runs long enough. Why not also be the lead hero doing the best during the process?

It was a nice treat when it happened, but WoW's community isn't mature enough to handle that.

Literally no gaming community in existence is "mature" enough to handle it because what you mean by "mature" is retarded. Being mature is expecting to not advance or progress unless you, yourself, have advanced and progressed. Like idiots who stay mcdonalds cooks expecting year over year raises for doing the same exact job.

Up yourself if you want to up rewards. Random luck is one of the worst parts about reality.

[pinkz]

looking at some of the epic BOEs on the AH, appears to me that WF/TF is still in the game even with corruption, possible gem slot, possible secondary stats along with a i see same pieces of gear one is 460, another is 465

they don't say WF or TF, blizzard says they removed WF/TF, so there is no more WF/TF

[Morgaith]

WF/TF/sockets/teritary stats was a terrible system, corruption is somehow worse yes but the answer should be to use neither of the systems for shadowlands.