1. #1

    From FFV/Tactics to Bravely Default II, what is your verdict on the job system ?

    Final Fantasy proper gameplay have always been a mix bag, from somewhat basic to a borderline chore. But it was always varied. (IMO), the most original and consistent thing Square put together on that front is the job system. For philistines, it's a class system in which you can mix and match classes. Typically, you master class A to the point you learn a permanent skill that you can use in class B. A straightfoward example would be to level ''NINJA'' to learn dual yield and use it as a ''KNIGHT'' with two Cloud-grade huge swords….

    Which lead to what, (IMO) is the weakness : it's a system that offer a huge freedom on purpose and did break on occasion from class models (example : FFT made healing with pots viable with the CHEMIST), but it was never researched, since some combos were gamebreakers even by JRPGs standards.

  2. #2
    I lean one of two ways, either the ones that let me hybridise jobs like FFV where you can learn abilities on say a monk and then switch to warrior or something but sometimes thats broken. I think it was the original Bravely Default where combining something like Ninja and Pirate or Viking gave you costant 8 double 9999 attacks per turn which made everything a joke.
    Then you have stuff like FFX-2's dressphere system where you can change jobs mid fight at the cost of a turn but a equipped garment grid limits how many jobs and you can be multiple jobs apart and spend multiple turns getting from one job to the desired one. Though again this can be tubro cheesed with a chemist making infinite megalixirs from potions with two dark knights stunlocking even the end boss with 99,999 damage bullshit.

    I think the best balance, though i dont like how all of the jobs act, is probably FFXIV. As long as you aren't in combat you can swap at the touch of a button and go "okay tank wants to tag out, i'll go from Red Mage to Dark Knight and tag in" stuff that doesn't suffer from the system breaking effects of a lot of job systems and because of its multiplayer nature means you can be playing a multiplayer game with the same friends and every fight you can swap out to be different jobs.

    Though to be XIV also made crafting jobs like Culinarian and while BS has Chef a lot of the systems dont have those weird jobs i like.
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  3. #3
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    HUGE fan of Job based RPGs. Especially when they're tactical combat.

    Especially in systems like FF:Tactics or the Disgaea series, where there are insanely powerful jobs to unlock, that require mastering a bunch of prior jobs, and doing all manner of crazy things.
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  4. #4
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    FFT is the best game ever made and the main reason is it's job system. I think that summarizes my feelings on this quite well.

    There definitely needs to be more games that let you multiclass but not just in having class A and B and mixing them but how FFT did it where you can combine a multitude of aspects from different jobs into one character. Like a crossbow-wielding teleporting Knight that goes invisible when targetted and has status ailment Geomancer spells. The more you can mix up the better and I honestly don't care a smidgen if it breaks the game, people can always mod impossible bosses to make up for it like it's been done for FFT. What matters is to push the job system to the limit.

    Now add a job system like that to an MMO and I can die happy.
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  5. #5
    Titan
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I lean one of two ways, either the ones that let me hybridise jobs like FFV where you can learn abilities on say a monk and then switch to warrior or something but sometimes thats broken. I think it was the original Bravely Default where combining something like Ninja and Pirate or Viking gave you costant 8 double 9999 attacks per turn which made everything a joke.
    Then you have stuff like FFX-2's dressphere system where you can change jobs mid fight at the cost of a turn but a equipped garment grid limits how many jobs and you can be multiple jobs apart and spend multiple turns getting from one job to the desired one. Though again this can be tubro cheesed with a chemist making infinite megalixirs from potions with two dark knights stunlocking even the end boss with 99,999 damage bullshit.

    I think the best balance, though i dont like how all of the jobs act, is probably FFXIV. As long as you aren't in combat you can swap at the touch of a button and go "okay tank wants to tag out, i'll go from Red Mage to Dark Knight and tag in" stuff that doesn't suffer from the system breaking effects of a lot of job systems and because of its multiplayer nature means you can be playing a multiplayer game with the same friends and every fight you can swap out to be different jobs.

    Though to be XIV also made crafting jobs like Culinarian and while BS has Chef a lot of the systems dont have those weird jobs i like.
    To be fair, in Bravely Default you need to cheese it a bit in order to beat the post game bosses.

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  6. #6
    I genuinely like job systems. I especially like FFXIV where I can play every job and each one has it's own progression.
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    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  7. #7
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    The Tactics series did it best, even if it meant godly levels of broken DW Paladins and Sniper Assassin Viera in Advance.

    The sheer level of customisation and clear progression, as well as how skills were gated by gear, so that you had to play through the game to acquire better abilities, meant you could create so many variations to tackle a challenge.

    FF3's job system also deserves some praise, but it has drawbacks. Firstly you're straight up pigeonholed into some jobs at certain stages of the game, and a couple of classes need obnoxious levels of grinding, notably thief if you're hunting a certain endgame weapon.

    Octopath's is fun, my only hate is how restrictive it is. While it's already gamebreaking, the fact that A: You are locked into your original class and B: Only one person can use a class as their secondary at any one time makes me a touch frustrated, when the possibilities could be endless.


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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    FFT is the best game ever made and the main reason is it's job system. I think that summarizes my feelings on this quite well.

    There definitely needs to be more games that let you multiclass but not just in having class A and B and mixing them but how FFT did it where you can combine a multitude of aspects from different jobs into one character. Like a crossbow-wielding teleporting Knight that goes invisible when targetted and has status ailment Geomancer spells. The more you can mix up the better and I honestly don't care a smidgen if it breaks the game, people can always mod impossible bosses to make up for it like it's been done for FFT. What matters is to push the job system to the limit.

    Now add a job system like that to an MMO and I can die happy.
    My favorite FFT build was a dual wielding teleporting Dark Knight,I'd let mobs get close then teleport 2-4 units around it and annihilate it.

  9. #9
    Octopath had a 50% reduction on STEAM Canada. Bought it and can't wait to have time to try it.

    A major plus of TACTICS is that you have 5 units on the battlefield. You can experiment and try combinations. At 3 (FF X-2) or 4 (Bravely) with one spot usually down for healers….

  10. #10
    The Patient Rathwirt's Avatar
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    I'd love to have all my characters in one vis-a-vis FF14 in WoW. I love being able to just build up one character to eventually be able to do whatever. Endless combinations in MMOs haven't worked out very well so far though, so I'm fine with being one class at a time, as long as I can switch freely.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    FFT is the best game ever made and the main reason is it's job system. I think that summarizes my feelings on this quite well.

    There definitely needs to be more games that let you multiclass but not just in having class A and B and mixing them but how FFT did it where you can combine a multitude of aspects from different jobs into one character. Like a crossbow-wielding teleporting Knight that goes invisible when targetted and has status ailment Geomancer spells. The more you can mix up the better and I honestly don't care a smidgen if it breaks the game, people can always mod impossible bosses to make up for it like it's been done for FFT. What matters is to push the job system to the limit.

    Now add a job system like that to an MMO and I can die happy.
    I loved cheesing it with a Teleporting Dark Knight + Excalibur and Mastered Calculator/White Mage/Black Mage/Time Mage/Geomancer. Solo'ing just about anything and everything in a move or two, even the final bosses (though you needed a few status-immunity items!). Was amazing seeing all the effort you put into a character pay off like. And it was seriously effort, the Dark Knight alone required 4(?) max level job, mastered black mage and knight - both a serious pain to master due to skill costs. And that's ignoring the additional effort in unlocking the Calculator and then mastering that as well - the slowest job in the game that 100% relies on knowing a plethora of other magic-based job abilities.

    I'd love for an MMO to take that model, with restrictions including a limited job scope because balance can't be completely ignored, and run with it.
    Something like the following:

    Character Level: Unlocks skill slots as you level to allow you to equipment a limited amount of additional support/reactionary/movement skills

    Primary job: Gives bonus attributes, unfettered access to all support/reactionary/movement skills/active abilities

    Secondary job: Gives 50% of bonus attributes, unfettered access to active abilities

    Tertiary job: unfettered access to active abilities

    The effectiveness of active abilities would be reliant on the combination support/reaction/movement abilities so you'd only be able to utilise the full potential of your primary job but as you level up and unlock additional skill slots you can start tapping into the potential of your secondary/tertiary job abilities but never utilise their full potential.
    People could tailor their gameplay based on their preferences through the combination of different jobs. Could be very liberating and offer player agency beyond the capacity of any developer's vision.

  12. #12
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    I liked how in FFTA2, you could reclass any character into almost any job (some are race locked) and they'd retain their prior skills, and they could equip another job as a sub job. It was very convenient. It made experimentation very easy (don't like it? You can always change back!) and led to a ton of build diversity. I remember my main guy being this absolute kickass awesome Dragoon/Templar/Defender (can't remember the exact comp) who would wend up doing the bulk of the heavy lifting while the rest of the party were guys I was leveling up. I was also training a glass canon Hume Paravir.

    That said, the job system isn't my favorite JRPG progression system. The problem with job systems is that they are based around enforcing a class fantasy, or an archetypal fantasy. With a job system, characters aren't defined by their character, but by their job. For example, in FFXII, Baltheir is a sky pirate with a flintlock pistol. He should be a lithe character, methodical character focused around precise movements. He should be using his agility and his sneakiness to move to the best position, and then pop out of cover to shoot his target at just the right moment. But in gameplay, you can class him as a Black Mage or a Knight, etc. He then suddenly stops being Baltheir. In gameplay, he isn't Baltheir, the sky pirate with his flintlock, acting like Baltheir. He suddenly starts acting like a mage standing in the back wielding advanced magics, or a knight charging his enemies with a sword and shield. To me, it's not really immersive. It doesn't feel like I'm playing with Baltheir.

    My favorite JRPG progression system would have to be the orbment system from the Trails games, specifically the Trails of Cold Steel games. In those games, characters act like themselves both in the story and during combat. For example, take Fie. In the story, she is an assassin esque character, raised by mercenaries to dodge bullets, using her sneakiness to come around the back and wait for just the right moment to jump on her enemy's with a precision attack. In gameplay, she does exactly that, as her abilities are tied to her character. You can customize her by swapping out quartz (and Cold Steel's master quartz system offers a lot of flexibility), which come with different stats and effects, but the way she acts in the story is the way she is going to act in gameplay. Playing her during combat fulfills the character fantasy.

    IMO, Job systems work best when you have player created characters, like in FFXIV or Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 (which is about you creating a party - naming them however you want, customizing them however you want. Only a couple characters are actual preset characters with story significance, and even then most of the content doesn't even have anything to do with those couple characters). However, if I am playing a game following preset characters, I'd prefer them to act like themselves in gameplay.

    It's about identity. Characters need to have an identity. If the character is created by the player, they don't come with an identity by default, so it's up to the game designers to give the player the most efficient tools to create an identity for their character that they'd like. A job system presents the player with premade, cool identities they can attribute to their characters. Open ended customization can help the player create their specific fantasy, but that is very hard to pull off in a satisfying manner. Preset jobs are way easier to design. However, if the player is following preset characters, those characters already have their own identity. To try to attribute a different identity to them during combat just makes it feel... jarring.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2020-04-02 at 03:07 AM.

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  13. #13
    I am Murloc! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Can't stand it. I prefer each character to have their own set of abilities that make them unique.
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  14. #14
    Personally im not a fan.

    A good rpg also needs a good story. I prefer when character traits are represented in their art style and fighting style. And the characters are clearly defined with a great arc.

    Having a ninja with holy magic is just eh. Doesnt make any sense from a RP perspective.
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