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  1. #1
    Warchief shade3891's Avatar
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    The end of specializations?

    What if blizzard removed the specialization switching in SL or beyond? Your just your chosen class.

    - You have access to most skills your class has to offer. (at max lvl)
    - The talent system gets super expanded with multiple rotation/gameplay and role defining choices. *
    - Yes, you prob. will have more abilities then buttonslots, but is that really so bad? You just have to make a skill selection.
    - Gear and chosen talents define your main (LFG)party-role, when making a manual group you can do whatever you like.

    * Example: choose between the two versions of Metamorphosis as a Demon Hunter.
    * Example: choose between Jade statue and Ox statue as a monk.


    Would you like a system like this and have access to more class skills.


    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Redroniksre View Post
    ... I love that mage example, like them bringing back frostbolt for fire mages. Why would they ever cast it? It would be a complete DPS loss, and is otherwise a useless button. But it seems like that is what you guys want, useless buttons just so you can feel like you have choice. I mean you can make macros that don't do anything and it would be the same thing. Also the whole "they can just balance it!" despite not realizing that the more you add the harder the game becomes to balance and that it just means it would go slower than it already is.
    The point is there wont be fire or frost mages, just mages. You might preffer fire over frost because you are currently running with lots of crit gear, but still be able to cast Blizzard and frost nova to slow down a pack then nuke one down with a frost lance and a Pyroblast. Sure Masteries need to be adjusted to account for the multiple damage types.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    So basically the old talent system?
    No not really, I was more thinking in the line of the essence system you can select what you think is best for you or the current situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    At least someone in this topic has a clue.
    Nope, if you only pick dps talents/skills you should seriously lack in defensive or healing power. You can make a hybrid spec and do a bit of both.
    Pure dps classes just have more options to play their class or tailor their rotation for the situation/encounter/dungeon.


    Easy fix: Lets say you can choose 15* traits/talents:
    For every dps talent you pick you deal 2%* more damage.
    For every healing talent you pick your healing is increased by 2%*.
    And for every defensive talent damage you take is reduced by 2%*.

    * example values
    Last edited by shade3891; 2020-04-01 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #2
    i wonder how a skill combo system would work in wow, in Aion they had a system where you use one ability (lets say bloodthirst) and then you can follow it up by different abilities like lets say raging blow or execute, but otherwise you cant use those abilities

    or following up whirlwing with a rampage

    but tbh, the only thing i want in SL is for them to bring back SMF for fury, 2H and DW for all DK specs and letting tank monks play DW and vice versa
    Last edited by valky94; 2020-04-01 at 12:27 PM.

  3. #3
    I find it interesting, but there are still inherent things that differentiate the roles.

    Like a Tank has to be inherently sturdier then a DPS. this could be done with Talents tho, but then the reality of gameplay will kick in and dictate to you which abilities you have to use and which Talents you need to choose, basically just like now. The spec itself will disappear but the rotations and gameplay will not change much, take a Death Knight for example.

    The Masteries are pretty straightforward, if those were to be kept as Talents you would choose Frost damage (former Frost Mastery) or Shadow Damage (Unholy Mastery). After that, you would obviously pick the corresponding abilities for your playstyle. So you end up with the Unholy spells if you picked the Unholy Mastery and the Frost spells if you picked the Frost Mastery. Inserting other abilities into your gameplay at that point will most certainly be a loss in dps.

    So I don't dislike the idea, but I fear in the reality of gameplay it will be inconsequential. But I support anything that gives me more toys to play with

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by shade3891 View Post
    What if blizzard removed the specialization switching in SL or beyond? Your just your chosen class.

    - You have access to most skills your class has to offer. (at max lvl)
    - The talent system gets super expanded with multiple rotation/gameplay and role defining choices. *
    - Yes, you prob. will have more abilities then buttonslots, but is that really so bad? You just have to make a skill selection.
    - Gear and chosen talents define your main (LFG)party-role, when making a manual group you can do whatever you like.

    * Example: choose between the two versions of Metamorphosis as a Demon Hunter.
    * Example: choose between Jade statue and Ox statue as a monk.


    Would you like a system like this and have access to more class skills.
    And then you get the paladin who does full DD damage, can take a beating like a tank and heal like a healer and you see why that is a really dumb idea.

  5. #5
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shade3891 View Post
    What if blizzard removed the specialization switching in SL or beyond? Your just your chosen class.

    - You have access to most skills your class has to offer. (at max lvl)
    - The talent system gets super expanded with multiple rotation/gameplay and role defining choices. *
    - Yes, you prob. will have more abilities then buttonslots, but is that really so bad? You just have to make a skill selection.
    - Gear and chosen talents define your main (LFG)party-role, when making a manual group you can do whatever you like.

    * Example: choose between the two versions of Metamorphosis as a Demon Hunter.
    * Example: choose between Jade statue and Ox statue as a monk.


    Would you like a system like this and have access to more class skills.
    No. I wouldn't like it at all. An Arms/Fury warrior should absolutely be distinct from a Protection warrior, the idea that you just play a warrior and 'eh whatever happens, happens' is one of those things that would push me away from the game, not draw me in.

    Terrible idea.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And then you get the paladin who does full DD damage, can take a beating like a tank and heal like a healer and you see why that is a really dumb idea.
    Nope. Things come at a cost. A base paladin healing would be the same as ret Palas healing is now. That pala could drop some dps talents for better healing, but then they would have less damdge.

    It's pretty self balancing in the regard out side of any especially op talents, but then blizz get payed monthly so they could just do there fucking jobs and nurf and buff things that are under or op like that.

  7. #7
    prepare to see fire spec. mages casting frost bolts in lfr! because they can!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    No. I wouldn't like it at all. An Arms/Fury warrior should absolutely be distinct from a Protection warrior, the idea that you just play a warrior and 'eh whatever happens, happens' is one of those things that would push me away from the game, not draw me in.

    Terrible idea.
    Then just take only the "fury" or "arms" talents. This is a MMORPG not a moba, people want the freedom the lost with the shit New talents back to make there char there own. A warrior is a warrior, how you define that should be entirely up to the player.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    prepare to see fire spec. mages casting frost bolts in lfr! because they can!
    Because they should able to. A mage is a mage. One mage prefers fire and should be able to specialise but that dosnt mean they forget the basic frostbolt spell.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I find it interesting, but there are still inherent things that differentiate the roles.

    Like a Tank has to be inherently sturdier then a DPS. this could be done with Talents tho, but then the reality of gameplay will kick in and dictate to you which abilities you have to use and which Talents you need to choose, basically just like now. The spec itself will disappear but the rotations and gameplay will not change much, take a Death Knight for example.

    The Masteries are pretty straightforward, if those were to be kept as Talents you would choose Frost damage (former Frost Mastery) or Shadow Damage (Unholy Mastery). After that, you would obviously pick the corresponding abilities for your playstyle. So you end up with the Unholy spells if you picked the Unholy Mastery and the Frost spells if you picked the Frost Mastery. Inserting other abilities into your gameplay at that point will most certainly be a loss in dps.

    So I don't dislike the idea, but I fear in the reality of gameplay it will be inconsequential. But I support anything that gives me more toys to play with
    So for those who atm min max and follow the cookie cutter nothing will change, but for out side of raiding, for on farm, for messing around in pvp and for in general casual play between those super high keys we all get stuff to play around with and do quirky things with.....

    I'm not seeing a loss here.

  9. #9
    Cool idea from role playing etc. Perspective.

    But rather pointless from gameplay perspective. Would just lead into similar situation it is atm and probably lessen our valid options. You would just take the route that is optimal for your spec of choice, meaning that you would effectively pick your spec just like you do now, even if the choice was made in different way.

  10. #10
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Then just take only the "fury" or "arms" talents. This is a MMORPG not a moba, people want the freedom the lost with the shit New talents back to make there char there own. A warrior is a warrior, how you define that should be entirely up to the player.
    If you want to play an MMO where everything you do is up to you, make your own MMO.

    And the idea that specializations somehow veer the game into 'MOBA' territory is useless and stupid. Specializations have been a staple of countless RPGs, many games did it before WoW and many more will long after.

    Finally, lol@thinking you had freedom with the old trees. You had 2 options: the best build, and the 'wtf are you doing' builds. Protip: the illusion of choice isn't always an actual choice.
    Last edited by Mirishka; 2020-04-01 at 01:13 PM.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by shade3891 View Post
    What if blizzard removed the specialization switching in SL or beyond? Your just your chosen class.

    - You have access to most skills your class has to offer. (at max lvl)
    - The talent system gets super expanded with multiple rotation/gameplay and role defining choices. *
    - Yes, you prob. will have more abilities then buttonslots, but is that really so bad? You just have to make a skill selection.
    - Gear and chosen talents define your main (LFG)party-role, when making a manual group you can do whatever you like.

    * Example: choose between the two versions of Metamorphosis as a Demon Hunter.
    * Example: choose between Jade statue and Ox statue as a monk.


    Would you like a system like this and have access to more class skills.
    I say just use the essance slot system but more slots and instead of essences, make it a mix of expansion specific abilities like the essences and the avaliable talents and abilities currently spec specific and let people do as they wish with it.

    Will there be a summed bis cookie cutter? Yea ofc but that will be the case with litteraly any system and its no different to now for those who stick rigidly to it. But for the casuals they get the freedom to customizer and play around with there chars and for the top end they get much more freedom to tailor there char for the specific tasks,becaiee belive it or not, the highest simming choices arn't always the right choice depending on what the fights require. Being able to pull 80k on patchwork means fuck all on a movment boss and you didn't take movment talents, or a very high raid wide dmg boss and you didn't take defensives.

  12. #12
    Ffxiv does what your talking about however you have an issue. With what your talking about doing your class would have to be locked into a specific role. Otherwise you have alll classes that can tank and have a dps spec available being a tanky dps etc. Sure in ffxiv they have a skill that puts a tank into a 'tank stance' and lets them be able to tank but at the end of the day a tank is still a tank.

    How would you solve the hybrid issue? You would have to pick a natural role for say paladin. How would you fix that one so that people would still be able to do what they prefer instead of locking them primarilly into one role?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    If you want to play an MMO where everything you do is up to you, make your own MMO.

    And the idea that specializations somehow veer the game into 'MOBA' territory is useless and stupid. Specializations have been a staple of countless RPGs, many games did it before WoW and many RPGs will long after WoW.

    Finally, lol@thinking you had freedom with the old trees. You had 2 options: the best build, and the 'wtf are you doing' builds. Protip: the illusion of choice isn't always an actual choice.
    No it was a choice. Far more of a choice than now. Bis is bis on patchwerk, there's very few patchwerk bosses, I had the freedom to splash prot for more defence or splash ret for old content and more dmg as a healing pala. That's freedom in my hands to make choices based on the content I wish to tackle.

    As dps I could do the same, splashing for defensives for soloing and farming, or on bosses where the dmg made the healers struggle or to meet certain phases.

    People like you who struggle with more than 3 options a row utterly ruined this game with the mop talents. I'm glad blizz is moving back in the right direction and I cannot wait till the moba talent system is Finaly thrown in the bin where it belongs and we get more freedom to again define our own abilities.

  14. #14
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And then you get the paladin who does full DD damage, can take a beating like a tank and heal like a healer and you see why that is a really dumb idea.
    At least someone in this topic has a clue.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  15. #15
    So, if instead of specs you're saying we choose from a huge, absolutely gigantic, absolutely ridiculous, absolutely monstrous selection of talents which (combined with gear) will define our role, so that we can basically re-create the specs we have now. So, instead of being able to switch specs we can switch between various talent builds. Is the appeal of this system supposed to be that we can build our own character to basically be any kind of hybridization of any existing specs in the game, that we could kind of have our character be any combination of custom specs we want? So, if I wanted to have Wrath-style Balance Druid, WoD-style Frost DK, and Legion-style Survival Hunter all in one, I could do that?

    It probably depends on how much customization such a system could have. It basically lives and dies off of being able to have multiple talent sets to switch between as well. There would of course need to be recommended builds for new players to take. As a possible strength to the system, experienced players having an option to make new characters to level and get random talents to get wacky multi-class builds where every ability is from a different class would be pretty fun. Might make leveling pretty attractive as it isn't just the same assortment of the same class abilities but instead you could potentially have some wild and crazy builds with weird abilities you would have to gear around and make useful. Something like this would especially benefit from a system where you could in some way direct your gearing choices to what you believe is beneficial to what your build is, rather than the game deciding for you -- especially if you're going for something more wacky or memey. Of course, specific passives that reference specific things would have to be generalized a little bit to spell schools or something.

    Big downfall to something like this is, of course, that mathematically best builds of talents would be defined, even for pre-established archetypes. But the biggest boon to something like this, is the absolute freedom of character customization.
    Last edited by Razion; 2020-04-01 at 01:23 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    At least someone in this topic has a clue.
    He dosnt because he dosnt understand trade offs

    If a ret pala splashes for more healing or more defensives they can't then take as many dps talents.

  17. #17
    Specializations work because it helps to define roles within the game. But they are also true in real life. Just because you can be called a doctor doesn't mean your PhD in history will give you the skills to perform brain surgery.

  18. #18
    The Patient guisadop's Avatar
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    So just like Vanilla/TBC/Wrath? That would be great.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Because they should able to. A mage is a mage. One mage prefers fire and should be able to specialise but that dosnt mean they forget the basic frostbolt spell.
    I get this argument. It's just my inner elitist thinking about how during dungeon leveling I will now see people not only with completely wrong talents and doing less dmg than a healer but also people casting wrong spec. spells with those wrong talents Not that I level alts that often.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    So, if instead of specs you're saying we choose from a huge, absolutely gigantic, absolutely ridiculous, absolutely monstrous selection of talents which (combined with gear) will define our role, so that we can basically re-create the specs we have now. So, instead of being able to switch specs we can switch between various talent builds. Is the appeal of this system supposed to be that we can build our own character to basically be any kind of hybridization of any existing specs in the game, that we could kind of have our character be any combination of custom specs we want? So, if I wanted to have Wrath-style Balance Druid, WoD-style Frost DK, and Legion-style Survival Hunter all in one, I could do that?

    It probably depends on how much customization such a system could have. It basically lives and dies off of being able to have multiple talent sets to switch between as well. There would of course need to be recommended builds for new players to take. As a possible strength to the system, experienced players having an option to make new characters to level and get random talents to get wacky multi-class builds where every ability is from a different class would be pretty fun. Might make leveling pretty attractive as it isn't just the same assortment of the same class abilities but instead you could potentially have some wild and crazy builds with weird abilities you would have to gear around and make useful. Something like this would especially benefit from a system where you could in some way direct your gearing choices to what you believe is beneficial to what your build is, rather than the game deciding for you -- especially if you're going for something more wacky or memey.
    What it would mean is.

    Say you a hunter right.

    U have the bis dps talent choices provided by Sims and like now on a pathwerk raid boss that would be your bis.

    But say ur pushing a high mythic key, and that specific m+ would go better with more cc so you can drop some dps for more cc, or say the uptime on a boss suites a different damdge pattern, you can alter to that, say your doing solo content like visions, you can splash for talents better for that.

    Think of how essences work only all of them are unlocked, and how depending on what your doing you can be more efficient at that thing by tailoring your essences to the content. If you want to Still follow a bis list and use that for every aspect then you can. But like essences there's sualy more optimal choices than the bis depending on what your doing or what the group could use to make things easier.

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