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  1. #21
    The Insane Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    and how can people actually think it's a good idea with a flat tax rate? it only punishes those who have less because they spend their money in other ways than people with a lot of money...
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Yea, good talk, we'll talk more when you've learned to read properly.
    Irony......
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    and how can people actually think it's a good idea with a flat tax rate? it only punishes those who have less because they spend their money in other ways than people with a lot of money...
    My understanding is that there are models with a lower income threshold, plus fundamentally, by that rationale sales and value added taxes are even more punitive on lower incomes... and in some countries they account for a bigger share of tax revenue compared to income tax...not seeing the forest for the tree.

    As for the appeals:

    -eliminating the perverse aspects of tax brackets,

    -doing away with complexity, eliminating loopholes

    -enhance tax recovery on the higher incomes, by disincentivizing tax evasion and erasing loopholes

    As far as I know it was widely implemented in Eastern Europe.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  3. #23
    The appeal of a flat tax stems from the following problem with a "progressive" tax system.

    1. Someone gets an entry-level job in a large company.
    2. They work hard, exceed expectations, and get a raise and / or promotion.
    3. The higher wage is enough to kick them just barely into a higher tax bracket.
    4. Because of their new tax status, they suddenly lose access to government benefits and must pay more in taxes.
    5. As a result, getting the promotion actually cuts their income and they are worse off.
    6. Many poor people are VERY aware of this issue, so they make it a point to never work hard at their job, refuse promotions, and fail to advance themselves to avoid taxes and keep their bennies.

    A flat tax would help solve this issue. Without worrying about what tax bracket they are in, they are more likely to work hard and accept promotions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The appeal of a flat tax stems from the following problem with a "progressive" tax system.

    1. Someone gets an entry-level job in a large company.
    2. They work hard, exceed expectations, and get a raise and / or promotion.
    3. The higher wage is enough to kick them just barely into a higher tax bracket.
    4. Because of their new tax status, they suddenly lose access to government benefits and must pay more in taxes.
    5. As a result, getting the promotion actually cuts their income and they are worse off.
    6. Many poor people are VERY aware of this issue, so they make it a point to never work hard at their job, refuse promotions, and fail to advance themselves to avoid taxes and keep their bennies.

    A flat tax would help solve this issue. Without worrying about what tax bracket they are in, they are more likely to work hard and accept promotions.
    this is outright false and a misunderstanding of how progressive tax brackets work.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The appeal of a flat tax stems from the following problem with a "progressive" tax system.

    1. Someone gets an entry-level job in a large company.
    2. They work hard, exceed expectations, and get a raise and / or promotion.
    3. The higher wage is enough to kick them just barely into a higher tax bracket.
    4. Because of their new tax status, they suddenly lose access to government benefits and must pay more in taxes.
    5. As a result, getting the promotion actually cuts their income and they are worse off.
    6. Many poor people are VERY aware of this issue, so they make it a point to never work hard at their job, refuse promotions, and fail to advance themselves to avoid taxes and keep their bennies.

    A flat tax would help solve this issue. Without worrying about what tax bracket they are in, they are more likely to work hard and accept promotions.
    You're conflating income brackets for benefits with progressive tax brackets. They aren't the same thing or even really part of the same system. You won't take home less if you earn more in a progressive tax system. It is true that hard income caps on certain kinds of benefits is a problem for some people, and one we need to address. A flat tax will not affect this in any way whatsoever.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    A flat tax would help solve this issue. Without worrying about what tax bracket they are in, they are more likely to work hard and accept promotions.
    Its cute that you think there are an unlimited number of promotions.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Irony......
    Actually, what he said was massively imprecise.

    Those that have less could be blowing it all on hookers and drugs. They could be investing it all in penny stocks. It doesn't actually say what they are doing. So shove your irony comment up your jacksie.

  8. #28
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Actually, what he said was massively imprecise.

    Those that have less could be blowing it all on hookers and drugs. They could be investing it all in penny stocks. It doesn't actually say what they are doing. So shove your irony comment up your jacksie.
    that escalated quickly. she was pretty much implying what you stated in your post by her statement. she just didn't specify it.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    that escalated quickly. she was pretty much implying what you stated in your post by her statement. she just didn't specify it.
    It's a one liner and it pretty much implied whatever the reader decides it implies. Thats why you state facts, so as to remove interpretation. Especially
    a) When you make a topic (do it properly)
    b) When discussing tax or law, because words matter.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    this is outright false and a misunderstanding of how progressive tax brackets work.
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2020-04-05 at 11:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  11. #31
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    I am not for a flat tax. I do however, support a bracketed national sales tax to do away with the income tax. The more expensive a item is, the higher % the sales tax would be. There could be some exemptions from the sales tax. Such as drugs and certain foods. Income, even if you did have a 10% rate, is too easy to ether fake or not even report. Criminals do it all the time.

    But I am also realistic enough to know it will never be implemented in the US. Nor will the flat tax.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  12. #32
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    Your understanding of the progressive tax system is so poorly that you fail to understand that the progressive tax rate could be broken up in different layers.

    Where as if you earned 100K per year you would pay a set percentage on the first 35K so that lower incomes are not seeing an increased taxation as you wish to keep that demographic spending power high, there for you increase the taxation on the the amounts earned above that. If you wish to unburden the middle class you can add the next one at 70K and if you wish you can add another bracket at 100K.

    The taxation for the first 35K remains the same regardless if you earn 30K or 100K.

    And if your interest is to really stimulate the economy and not believing in fairy tales like reagonimcs what is a failed attempted at trying to copy Thatchers vision of the economy you add a tax on more than just income.

    You're welcome,

    An actual fiscal conservative.

  13. #33
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    Your argument can be summed up as: I don't understand taxes, nobody understands taxes, therefore all your arguments about taxes are wrong!

    The fact that you or others are uneducated really isn't an argument in your favor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
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  14. #34
    The Insane Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    It's a one liner and it pretty much implied whatever the reader decides it implies. Thats why you state facts, so as to remove interpretation. Especially
    a) When you make a topic (do it properly)
    b) When discussing tax or law, because words matter.
    So instead of just asking for clarification, you just decide to be a dick. You do you then.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I am not for a flat tax. I do however, support a bracketed national sales tax to do away with the income tax. The more expensive a item is, the higher % the sales tax would be. There could be some exemptions from the sales tax. Such as drugs and certain foods. Income, even if you did have a 10% rate, is too easy to ether fake or not even report. Criminals do it all the time.

    But I am also realistic enough to know it will never be implemented in the US. Nor will the flat tax.
    Wait, so the tax rate would go up depending on the price of the item?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    there are tax calculators you can easily use on the interent, this is top tier nutcase stuff you are posting.

  17. #37
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    My understanding is that there are models with a lower income threshold, plus fundamentally, by that rationale sales and value added taxes are even more punitive on lower incomes... and in some countries they account for a bigger share of tax revenue compared to income tax...not seeing the forest for the tree.
    If your "flat tax" proposal has an income threshold below which you don't pay taxes, then it's not a flat tax at all, it's a progressive tax bracket system, and you've already admitted that flat taxes are stupid and punitive.

    As for the appeals:

    -eliminating the perverse aspects of tax brackets,

    -doing away with complexity, eliminating loopholes

    -enhance tax recovery on the higher incomes, by disincentivizing tax evasion and erasing loopholes

    As far as I know it was widely implemented in Eastern Europe.
    What "perverse aspects"? There's no negatives to tax brackets.

    Flat taxes have fuck-all to do with loopholes. Those are two entirely unrelated concepts.

    It literally reduces tax revenues on higher-income individuals. That's the point of a flat tax. And it does nothing at all to disincentivize tax evasion or erase loopholes.

    Are you sure you know how tax systems work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The appeal of a flat tax stems from the following problem with a "progressive" tax system.

    1. Someone gets an entry-level job in a large company.
    2. They work hard, exceed expectations, and get a raise and / or promotion.
    3. The higher wage is enough to kick them just barely into a higher tax bracket.
    4. Because of their new tax status, they suddenly lose access to government benefits and must pay more in taxes.
    5. As a result, getting the promotion actually cuts their income and they are worse off.
    6. Many poor people are VERY aware of this issue, so they make it a point to never work hard at their job, refuse promotions, and fail to advance themselves to avoid taxes and keep their bennies.

    A flat tax would help solve this issue. Without worrying about what tax bracket they are in, they are more likely to work hard and accept promotions.
    4/5 is the problem with your entire argument, and where you get this completely wrong.

    Most government benefits aren't directly tied to tax brackets.

    If those benefits are binary, you either have them or you don't, and moving from just below the income qualification to just above means you lose it, that's a problem with the benefit system, not the tax system. Your benefit system is ass; just fix the actual problem. A flat tax doesn't change this in any respect at all, because the issue has nothing to do with tax brackets to begin with.

    Without such a binary on/off government benefit where the qualification is income level, moving up in income to a new tax bracket cannot lead to you having less take-home income, and anyone who thinks otherwise shouldn't have been allowed to graduate from junior high, because they don't understand basic mathematics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    And the problem with this argument is that it's rooted in willful ignorance. It's like arguing that we should criminalize airplanes because idiots don't understand how something made of metal can fly.

    We're not talking complex mathematics. Progressive tax brackets involve math that you should've had to learn by grade 7 or 8, at the latest. That's it. Anyone who can't grasp this stuff shouldn't have been able to graduate high school.

  18. #38
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Wait, so the tax rate would go up depending on the price of the item?
    Imagine buying a car in that type of economy. It is an idea that simply does not work, the whole reason credit was invented was to give people more money to spend without increasing the wages.
    This idea would also kill a lot of sectors in the US, car industry being one of them or you end up exempting certain industries from that tax and it all falls apart anyway going down that road.

    People come up with all the weirdest kind of constructs to not have to pay more taxes.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So instead of just asking for clarification, you just decide to be a dick. You do you then.
    Not my job to ask for clarification. His job to provide it. You keep defending what shouldn't be defended though.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Wait, so the tax rate would go up depending on the price of the item?
    Luxury tax.

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