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  1. #41
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Wait, so the tax rate would go up depending on the price of the item?
    Yes. But more depending on the item. Some things could be classified luxury and have a higher tax rate. Such as a new Rolls Royce or a new airplane. Even today, only the rich can afford to buy one.

    But like I said, not going to happen.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************

    People suck at math. Like REALLY suck.

    That means they will NEVER understand how the progressive tax system works. Like, ever. So that means you could explain it a billion times, and people will still turn down promotions out of fear of entering a higher tax bracket.

    They will always prefer a flat tax over a progressive tax.

    Stop living in an ivory tower and look at how people actually REACT to this stuff.

    This is the key conservative argument: even tho ON PAPER it looks like progressive taxes are the best choice, when you factor in human behavior, it ruins lives.

    You're welcome.
    I have a pretty hard time figuring out how someone who's too slow-witted to grasp effective tax rates could have risen high in an organization if only there were flat taxes.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Yes. But more depending on the item. Some things could be classified luxury and have a higher tax rate. Such as a new Rolls Royce or a new airplane. Even today, only the rich can afford to buy one.

    But like I said, not going to happen.
    It does have precedence, such as the Window tax, that saw use in France and the UK, with very amusing consequences on architecture.

    Plus there used to be one in the US not too long ago:

    In November 1991, The United States Congress enacted a luxury tax and was signed by President George H.W. Bush. The goal of the tax was to generate additional revenues to reduce the federal budget deficit. This tax was levied on material goods such as watches, expensive furs, boats, yachts, private jet planes, jewelry and expensive cars. Congress enacted a 10 percent luxury surcharge tax on boats over $100,000, cars over $30,000, aircraft over $250,000, and furs and jewelry over $10,000. The federal government estimated that it would raise $9 billion in excess revenues over the following five-year period. However, only two years after its imposition, in August 1993, at the behest of the luxury yacht industry, President Bill Clinton and Congress eliminated the “luxury tax” citing a loss in jobs. The luxury automobile tax remained in effect until 2002. A luxury tax still applies in some states for products deemed unnecessary or nonessential, a category in which non-luxury products often fall into.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  4. #44
    This entire thread screams Strawman.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    *********NEWS FLASH************
    So:
    1. You are saying that majority of people are so stupid, that they do not understand basic percentages? Which class was it? 8th? People are stupid, but not that stupid, if educated.
    2. People most definitely would understood more money in their account, unless you are going to tell me that 3rd grade is too hard too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Plus there used to be one in the US not too long ago:
    The second one screams bullshit by the "lost jobs" part. I refuse to believe that rich people stopped buying yachts just because they cost 10% more - when you can spend from few to tens of millions dollars on it, you do not care (in practical terms) about few hundred to couple more million bucks.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    The second one screams bullshit by the "lost jobs" part. I refuse to believe that rich people stopped buying yachts just because they cost 10% more - when you can spend from few to tens of millions dollars on it, you do not care (in practical terms) about few hundred to couple more million bucks.
    Hmm, of course many will conjure in their mind images of Supercars and Mega-Yachts when spraking of a luxury tax. But those are so few that they hardly make a difference, while the 30k and 100k thresholds clearly indicate that middle-class aspirational purchases would most likely constitute the main source of revenue.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    So:
    1. You are saying that majority of people are so stupid, that they do not understand basic percentages? Which class was it? 8th? People are stupid, but not that stupid, if educated.
    2. People most definitely would understood more money in their account, unless you are going to tell me that 3rd grade is too hard too?
    I have personally watched people make terrible financial decisions because they wanted to avoid paying more taxes, yes. That is a widespread phenomenon. If you didn't know that, you don't interact with many people. (and this forum is filled with introverts so that is entirely possible).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  8. #48
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    I can see the case for making the tax code infinitely more simple and less ungainly to work with. But the flat tax isn't the answer to that problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. MySpace was the Garden of Eden, Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Kim Yo-jong supporter and voter.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    Hmm, of course many will conjure in their mind images of Supercars and Mega-Yachts when spraking of a luxury tax. But those are so few that they hardly make a difference, while the 30k and 100k thresholds clearly indicate that middle-class aspirational purchases would most likely constitute the main source of revenue.
    Can we even call it a luxury business, then, as the article states? 30k would give you a... simple boat? Not sure we can call that a luxury yacht... or yacht at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I have personally watched people make terrible financial decisions because they wanted to avoid paying more taxes, yes. That is a widespread phenomenon. If you didn't know that, you don't interact with many people. (and this forum is filled with introverts so that is entirely possible).
    Your subjective experience means nothing and unless you can quote some statistics - it is not a widespread phenomenom unless backed up by facts.

  10. #50
    Because it's fair.

    A flat percentage rate across all income brackets is the only way to simultaneously eliminate graft and bureaucratic red tape.

    You wouldn't even need the IRS since the federal government would effectively be on a fixed income.

  11. #51
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    and how can people actually think it's a good idea with a flat tax rate? it only punishes those who have less because they spend their money in other ways than people with a lot of money...
    Because they believe it's fairer & ultimately better for the economy:

    1. If I earn 10x what you do, I pay 10x in taxes what you do - instead of 40x or 50x or whatever (as happens under a progressive tax system).

    2. If I am lucky enough or hard-working enough, to earn piles of money, why should the government punish me by taking more of it proportionately?

    3. If I'm taxed at a low enough rate (whatever that is) I won't bother trying to avoid (or even evade) taxation, eg by getting my money offshore, not investing when I could, etc.

    Personally I wouldn't mind a flat 0% rate, but sadly even if William Gladstone had managed that, the world wars would probably have brought the income tax back .
    Still not tired of winning.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    2. If I am lucky enough or hard-working enough, to earn piles of money, why should the government punish me by taking more of it proportionately?

    3. If I'm taxed at a low enough rate (whatever that is) I won't bother trying to avoid (or even evade) taxation, eg by getting my money offshore, not investing when I could, etc.
    2. You're not being punished. Your paying for a society that allowed you to make more money in the first place.

    3. Some people will cheerfully avoid all taxes if possible.

  13. #53
    Considering many states and countries have flat tax rates, it's because they work. That's what a sales tax is. The same goes for all sorts of other taxes we have to pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  14. #54
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaexion Ramza Beoulve View Post
    Because it's fair.
    It's equal. It is not equitable. Equitable is where fairness is considered, not equality.

    Is it "fair" to insist that the starving man share his soup kitchen meal with the corporate billionaire sitting next to him, who's just finished eating dinner at a fancy restaurant? They should have equal portions, right, even though the starving man needs the food more, and half a meal won't be enough for him?

    Of course not. It's a ridiculous idea, and it takes some pretty deliberate malfeasance to argue otherwise.

    A flat percentage rate across all income brackets is the only way to simultaneously eliminate graft and bureaucratic red tape.

    You wouldn't even need the IRS since the federal government would effectively be on a fixed income.
    Does fuck-all to eliminate graft and red tape. All a flat tax means is that there's a single tax bracket. It does not mean there aren't tax loopholes to take advantage of. You're literally just talking about changing the single paragraph that talks about progressive brackets, and making that a single sentence that describes a single bracket. That's it. It changes nothing else about the tax code's complexity.

  15. #55
    Why people argue for it? Mainly because they are fond of the capitalistic "you deserve the fruits of your labour" instead of the marxist wealth redistribution "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

    The optimal approach lies, as usual, somewhere in the middle.

  16. #56
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    There are two types of people who argue for a flat tax:

    1. The type who think it's fair because, at a glance without thinking about it, it *looks* fair
    2. The type who can take advantage of #1. Also known as the wealthy who benefit from such a scheme.

    The reality is a flat tax puts more of a burden on the poor than the rich, a progressive tax serves the country in a more fair way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeps View Post
    Conservative states de-emphasize education.

    That says it all. They think it is "libcuck" to be a learned individual.
    I love it when they complain about the "liberal elite in their ivory towers."

    Oh no, we're educated.

  17. #57
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    2. You're not being punished. Your paying for a society that allowed you to make more money in the first place.
    Says you.

    Now you have a point of course, but the fact that people can and do disagree means that they have a different standard of "fairness" or "punishment" to you, and therein lies the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    3. Some people will cheerfully avoid all taxes if possible.
    Yup. Makes perfect economic sense - so long as not too many other people join in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Considering many states and countries have flat tax rates, it's because they work. That's what a sales tax is.
    People usually mean a flat rate of income tax when they talk about flat taxes, rather than sales taxes & the like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Does fuck-all to eliminate graft and red tape. All a flat tax means is that there's a single tax bracket. It does not mean there aren't tax loopholes to take advantage of. You're literally just talking about changing the single paragraph that talks about progressive brackets, and making that a single sentence that describes a single bracket. That's it. It changes nothing else about the tax code's complexity.
    Technically true, but most flat tax proposals out there also include the removal of tons of, if not all, loopholes. "Oh you gave money to charity? Tough, you still have to pay."

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    There are two types of people who argue for a flat tax:

    1. The type who think it's fair because, at a glance without thinking about it, it *looks* fair
    2. The type who can take advantage of #1. Also known as the wealthy who benefit from such a scheme.
    3. The type who think it's fair because, by their own standards, it *is* fair, even though Aden Jensen on MMO-C thinks they're wrong :P .

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    The reality is a flat tax puts more of a burden on the poor than the rich
    Insofar as the poor have, by definition, less money overall, and so every penny lost to tax is worth more, yes. That said, a personal allowance could still be an option (ie the tax rate only applies if you earn over, say, $20k/year).


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    I love it when they complain about the "liberal elite in their ivory towers."

    Oh no, we're educated.
    1. Education =/= a college degree. A college degree is proof of a credential, not proof of an education.

    2. You don't understand the ivory tower concept. It's not that the people in it are smart, or educated, or anything like that. It's that they're arrogant, because they believe that their ideas will work when they (a) haven't taken into account all the variables (especially the ones they don't know exist), and (b) haven't tested them. Humble intellectuals don't get accused of being ivory tower thinkers precisely because they're careful to recognise their own limitations.
    Still not tired of winning.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Says you.

    Now you have a point of course, but the fact that people can and do disagree means that they have a different standard of "fairness" or "punishment" to you, and therein lies the problem.


    Yup. Makes perfect economic sense - so long as not too many other people join in.


    People usually mean a flat rate of income tax when they talk about flat taxes, rather than sales taxes & the like.



    Technically true, but most flat tax proposals out there also include the removal of tons of, if not all, loopholes. "Oh you gave money to charity? Tough, you still have to pay."


    3. The type who think it's fair because, by their own standards, it *is* fair, even though Aden Jensen on MMO-C thinks they're wrong :P .


    Insofar as the poor have, by definition, less money overall, and so every penny lost to tax is worth more, yes. That said, a personal allowance could still be an option (ie the tax rate only applies if you earn over, say, $20k/year).



    1. Education =/= a college degree. A college degree is proof of a credential, not proof of an education.

    2. You don't understand the ivory tower concept. It's not that the people in it are smart, or educated, or anything like that. It's that they're arrogant, because they believe that their ideas will work when they (a) haven't taken into account all the variables (especially the ones they don't know exist), and (b) haven't tested them. Humble intellectuals don't get accused of being ivory tower thinkers precisely because they're careful to recognise their own limitations.
    And, in the end, a flat tax is not really any different than a sales tax. People are terrified of the idea, but I love it. I'd get rid of income taxes, and shift them to consumer-based sales taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  19. #59
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And, in the end, a flat tax is not really any different than a sales tax. People are terrified of the idea, but I love it. I'd get rid of income taxes, and shift them to consumer-based sales taxes.
    Lol, in the other thread you bash me for being all kinds of bad, then you come out with this and I'm sitting here thinking "yup, I agree with all that" :P .
    Still not tired of winning.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Lol, in the other thread you bash me for being all kinds of bad, then you come out with this and I'm sitting here thinking "yup, I agree with all that" :P .
    Well, you cannot be wrong all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

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