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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    This is wrong.

    These abilities will NOT be balanced. Not because it is Alpha now and not because it will be Beta later. These are absolutely irrelevant. The abilities WILL NOT be balanced. They cannot be. There are 12 classes, 48 abilities. Each does a different thing and thus one will always be better for a specific situation. You cannot pick more than one. You pick one. If it is too good, it will be nerfed. If it is too bad, it will be buffed. But they will never be balanced. Forget about that. It is not possible.

    Even if Paladin's Kyrian ability was:

    1 min CD, 1 sec cast time, 40 yard range, deals 10 000 damage to 1 enemy.

    And Mage's Venthyr ability was:

    1 min CD, 1 sec cast time, 40 yard range, deals 10 000 damage to 1 enemy.

    It would STILL NOT be balanced. Because of how differently those classes play and how well those abilities synergize with the rest of their kit. It is simply not a possible calculation. So stop crying about stuff being OP or unbalanced. That's not the issue here. The issue would be, being unable to switch between these abilities at will. Because that will piss people off. Not them being OP or weak. So stop giving the wrong feedback, stop crying about the wrong things. You're just creating NOISE.
    so much this.

    what worries me is that they said they want to put more weight on "player decisions" and are planning to make it very hard/time consuming to switch between those abilities. given that those abilities will be completely imbalanced 100% this means people might feel compelled to level their class several times to keep their options open.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

    This WILL effect everyone.
    thats NOT how players think
    some do, some dont, dont generalise all players...
    by your logic, as a frost dk i should never get spot in anything more than a hc dungeon as unholy is always performing better in sims, but turns out if you dont go for hall of fame or +30mythic it DOESNT FUCKING MATTER that you do slightly less dmg...

    if all people trully cared about it as much as you claim, some classes/specs would never get to raid/m+

  3. #183
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    lol...it's just alpha, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
    lol...it's just beta, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
    lol...it just got released, Blizz will fix it with an off-cycle fix in a couple of weeks
    lol...it's only been a couple of weeks, Blizz will fix it in the x.1 patch
    lol...it's just the first patch, Blizz was busy with other things...it'll all be fixed in the x.2 patch

    ^ - This is you
    lol... bitching about things I haven't even played yet

    ^ - This is you (and a significant amount of other posters in this thread. I should open a salt mine)

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesbote View Post
    so much this.

    what worries me is that they said they want to put more weight on "player decisions" and are planning to make it very hard/time consuming to switch between those abilities. given that those abilities will be completely imbalanced 100% this means people might feel compelled to level their class several times to keep their options open.
    Or you could just pick the covenant that seems cool to you.

  5. #185
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    I think the abilities look great, it's the balance that might be an issue and also switching from ST to AoE is probably going to be hard.
    Though having 2-3 characters of the same class might fix the issue.

  6. #186
    This insane drive for balance is what damaged WoW... be careful what you wish.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Community will look at the top% players for what the right choice is, and avoid those who made the wrong choice even if it doesn't actually matter for their skill level. That's just how WoW players think.

    This WILL effect everyone.
    That whole self regulating thing is something i have only seen in forums.

    I was never asked if i have Infinite Stars, Twilight devastation or 3 pieces of Streaking stars.... not ONCE! this whole expansion. And i have never played with someone who asked this. For a short time you got a faster invite if you postet that you have IS3 before the nerf.

    This is one of those weird "urban legends" where everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who this has happend to.

    Or the poster himself says it happens to himself ALL THE TIME.

    Like i said in another post. Many people will choose the best option for them. But i don't really see how this is different than any other decision in this game. I play Moonkin. Mages are better in Mythic plus. Why can't i switch my character to mage as needed. FF14 does it.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    impactful choice is the one that have consequences that you have to deal with, doesnt matter if good or bad,
    talents dont have that at all, as you can simply switch them - dont even have to go to town, just use a book and switch, simple as that
    now, IF you could only switch talents lets say once a week, that could be impactful choice
    Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    then they also force you to play best class and spec i guess?
    Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Then go by what is more important to you. 1,5% more dps or making choices that fit your character and the Lore. Really the problem is that you are dramatizing the whole afair. There will be some balance between the Covenants, but it won't be perfect, just as class balance is there, but not perfect. The difference will never be so big that it makes your class unplayable, it will be a few percent at most.
    What are you basing this on? I haven't seen any numbers so far and the spells that were presented are mechnically very different. Some classes already have obvious BiS options for certain content (such as Necrolords for DKs in PvP). The fact that you're not acknowledging this shows that you're either being wilfully ignorant to make a point or lack the understanding of the game to realize how this will impact gameplay. This is not "dramatizing" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you want to spin it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And you don't think Blizzard saw all the whining about that in the last 5 month? The entire system could have been changed by now and we would never know since we never saw how punishing it was meant to be when they conceived the system.
    We do not even know what difficulties they meant. Will we have to invest time to switch Covenants as in refarming or will we have to spend a few weeks worth of Anima on it and be done instantly? You just want to assume the worst case, because that drama is so delicious.
    Again, I'm basing this on Blizzard's statement about wanting to make it punishing for players who switch their covenants which is something I disagree with in principle. Speculating about how Blizzard might or might not have changed their stance on the issue is irrelevant since they haven't chosen to reveal that information yet. It's funny how I'm the one who simply argues based on what Blizzard has presented whereas you're making points based on what they haven't revealed yet while inferring malintent on my side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I was refering to the level on which you would apply this... that probably went over your head. The point is, looking to the 5% of MDI and Mythic Raiders that actually NEED to perform at the absolute top, for gameplay decisions is foolish. The game is balanced around Heroic level and every class can perform there, with some pulling ahead.
    My personal observation is however that the people that are actually competetive easily make up for the inherent differences in class balance by putting time and effort into their chosen class, while the meta victims on their FoTM classes regularly fall behind because they do not bring the experience with the classes.
    Well, if you look at PvP these thing start to matter fairly quickly and not just if you're aiming for R1. If you have a spell like the Necrolord DK covenant ability that provides you with incredible PvP utility and you're playing against a DK who doesn't have that then this will have a very noticeable impact on your chances of winning. It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You seem to make a habit of calling every last argument leveled against you as "non-argument", "ridiculous" or "inconsequential", so I doubt this post will fare any better.
    Feel free to tell my how class inbalance is an argument for creating more imbalance and I'll row back on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It negatively impacts a lot more peoples' experience that the game is constantly being watered down and homogenized, with all semblance of specialization and gameplay customization sucked out in order to appease a small contingent of people who is never happy because they want an impossible level of "balance".
    Please explain to me how covenant abilities wouldn't be "gameplay customization" if you could switch between them more easily.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-04-07 at 12:38 PM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by ~Valen~ View Post
    This insane drive for balance is what damaged WoW... be careful what you wish.
    This. These people will never, ever be happy until the game has one class, one spec, and gear is cosmetic.

  10. #190
    Yeah I also think it's pretty weird. I was under the impression the intention was to let people choose based on the visuals, looks and atmosphere of each covenant. I guess not. These abilities listed have too much impact on gameplay for it to ever be balanced.

    The only way to fix this while keeping those skills like that is to make all of them available to everyone, and just give visual upgrades to them based on the covenant you are in.

    PS. And yeah, it wouldn't be a problem if the difference was sub 1% of the output, like in the case of racial abilities. But this has potential to have way more influence than that. Hopefully they tune it properly according to feedback at least.
    Last edited by Azerate; 2020-04-07 at 12:39 PM.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.


    Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.


    What are you basing this on? I haven't seen any numbers so far and the spells that were presented are mechnically very different. Some classes already have obvious BiS options for certain content (such as Necrolords for DKs in PvP). The fact that you're not acknowledging this shows that you're either being wilfully ignorant to make a point or lack the understanding of the game to realize how this will impact gameplay. This is not "dramatizing" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you want to spin it.


    Again, I'm basing this on Blizzard's statement about wanting to make it punishing for players who switch their covenants which is something I disagree with in principle. Speculating about how Blizzard might or might not have changed their stance on the issue is irrelevant since they haven't chosen to reveal that information yet. It's funny how I'm the one who simply argues based on what Blizzard has presented whereas you're making points based on what they haven't revealed yet while inferring malintent on my side.


    Well, if you look at PvP these thing start to matter fairly quickly and not just if you're aiming for R1. If you have a spell like the Necrolord DK covenant ability that provides you with incredible PvP utility and you're playing against a DK who doesn't have that then this will have a very noticeable impact on your chances of winning. It's that simple.


    Feel free to tell my how class inbalance is an argument for creating more imbalance and I'll row back on that.
    If you want to prioritize min-maxing, that's a choice you are making. Stop trying to take away choices for the rest of us just because you don't want to have to make a choice in an RPG.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Yeah I also think it's pretty weird. I was under the impression the intention was to let people choose based on the visuals, looks and atmosphere of each covenant. I guess not. These abilities listed have too much impact on gameplay for it to ever be balanced.

    The only way to fix this while keeping those skills like that is to make all of them available to everyone, and just give visual upgrades to them based on the covenant you are in.
    Having the core feature of the expansion being nothing more than a changing room for cosmetics is one of the most profoundly stupid ideas I have ever heard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Please explain to me how covenant abilities wouldn't be "gameplay customization" if you could switch between them more easily.
    Hot-swappable abilities are just baseline abilities. That's not customization. If every single person of your class has the exact same thing and can switch between them at-will, you are all the same.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Or you could just pick the covenant that seems cool to you.
    Yeah. You could also pick the Azerite traits that sound the most fun to you. You could also use the corruption item that sound coolest.

    OR: You could play the game competitively in PvP/Raid content and try your best to get the best performance out of your character.

    I will let you take a guess how many players in this game fall into group 1 & 2 respectively.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    lol...it's just alpha, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
    lol...it's just beta, Blizz has plenty of time to fix it
    lol...it just got released, Blizz will fix it with an off-cycle fix in a couple of weeks
    lol...it's only been a couple of weeks, Blizz will fix it in the x.1 patch
    lol...it's just the first patch, Blizz was busy with other things...it'll all be fixed in the x.2 patch

    ^ - This is you
    Well considering we are not even at the FIRST of those points....

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    thats NOT how players think
    some do, some dont, dont generalise all players...
    by your logic, as a frost dk i should never get spot in anything more than a hc dungeon as unholy is always performing better in sims, but turns out if you dont go for hall of fame or +30mythic it DOESNT FUCKING MATTER that you do slightly less dmg...

    if all people trully cared about it as much as you claim, some classes/specs would never get to raid/m+
    You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you want to prioritize min-maxing, that's a choice you are making. Stop trying to take away choices for the rest of us just because you don't want to have to make a choice in an RPG.
    Again, what makes you think these chosing between these abilities wouldn't still be a choice if you could swap them out whenever you want to play different content? The only choice this promotes (as it exists right now) is a choice between cosmetics and the ability that actually matters for the content you'll play most of the time and maybe if you're lucky these two will overlap.
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Hot-swappable abilities are just baseline abilities. That's not customization. If every single person of your class has the exact same thing and can switch between them at-will, you are all the same.
    So choosing talents and gear isn't customization because other people can choose the same talents and the same gear?
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-04-07 at 12:49 PM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesbote View Post
    Yeah. You could also pick the Azerite traits that sound the most fun to you. You could also use the corruption item that sound coolest.

    OR: You could play the game competitively in PvP/Raid content and try your best to get the best performance out of your character.

    I will let you take a guess how many players in this game fall into group 1 & 2 respectively.
    Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.

    If you want to prioritize min-mazing, that's a CHOICE you are making. Enjoy your CHOICE.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Again, what makes you think these chosing between these abilities wouldn't still be a choice if you could swap them out whenever you want to play different content? The only choice this promotes (as it exists right now) is a choice between cosmetics and the ability that actually matters for the content you'll play most of the time and maybe if you're lucky these two will overlap.
    The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.

  17. #197
    The Lightbringer Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".

    Look where that got us in BFA, nothing has changed since beta, we were given shitty azerite armor and horrible class design.

    Don't get your hopes up, expect these "rental" abilities to be absolute shit. There will always be a bis ability and a go to for pvp.
    Look where that got us in legion with tons of sweeping nerfs and buffs upwards of 50% or more very early on.. quite funny if you think about it. Its pretty clear that they don't use PTR/beta for feedback. 90% of the time its gonna release as is and the whole time you have these silly geese saying oh don't worry it's just alpha/beta its not tuned yet *teehee!!!*

    This game is a clown fiesta as balance goes
    LOL

    ♫Toss a coin to your witcher♫

    I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?
    Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Look where that got us in legion with tons of sweeping nerfs and buffs upwards of 50% or more very early on.. quite funny if you think about it. Its pretty clear that they don't use PTR/beta for feedback. 90% of the time its gonna release as is and the whole time you have these silly geese saying oh don't worry it's just alpha/beta its not tuned yet *teehee!!!*
    The purpose is to find bugs and tune things, not to decide whether to radically alter the core design of the product.

  19. #199
    10 pages of people bitching about ability balance when there are...

    ...no numbers listed against any of these abilities
    ...also soulbinds to take into account when it comes to covenant choice

    And let's not forget that most of the min/maxing whinging people do in this game is probably not even relevant to them because the extra 0.5% doesn't actually make that much of a difference unless your a hardcore raiding guild pushing content for world firsts.

    But haters gotta hate I guess.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?
    Or maybe he is the piece of shit.

    When you have the easy option to do much better DPS, why wouldn't you take it?

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