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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    So choosing talents and gear isn't customization because other people can choose the same talents and the same gear?
    Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

    Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Talents have a large impact on your gameplay and determine what you can and can't do in different environments (which is why I'd describe them as "impactful"). What you're describing is simply a system that's punishing to people who do different types of content. But I guess it's "impactful" in that it would negatively impact their experience of the game.

    Why does this fallacious nonsense get repeated so often? Of course there will never be perfect balance among between classes/specs etc. but that is merely an observation and not a prescription for abandoning the principle of trying to balance the game as best as possible. So just because classes aren't perfectly balanced doesn't mean we should add more systems on top of that which create further imbalence.
    there is no consequences to talents you just choose which is better for fight...
    does my Frostscythe talent impact me during single target fight? not at all, i just wont use it even if i have it talented... but ill change it for frozen pulse, so only impact is i spend 2seconds and couple golds for book to respec before boss...

    as for "class falacy" - are you seriously telling me that single ability with minor impact force you to choose "bad" covenant, but its fine to play underperforming class/spec?
    so it doesnt matter you play melee class/spec that is doing 10-15% less dps than the top one, BCS you have chosen "best" covenant, which increase your dps by 1-2% (hell, even if 5%, even though if that hapens it will get nerfed)? if you are FORCED to perform the best, then you surely should pick different class (which happens in world first race) rather than just change covenant to "best"...
    hell, unless they seriously overtune them (which would be completely different issue) a single trinket could have bigger impact than those abilities, but ive never have raid leader tell me "sorry, you cant go, you dont have BIS trinket"

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.

    If you want to prioritize min-mazing, that's a CHOICE you are making. Enjoy your CHOICE.

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    The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.
    Few things here you are either leaving out or flat out ignoring...

    You don't "pick" one covenant you help all four one in each zone. The idea that only one will "lend" you their power is already contrived from a story point of view.

    Nothing about the game would change for you if covenants were treated the same as any other talent row. Blizzard trying to punish people who enjoy multiple aspects of their game at high levels seems self destructive and played out poorly in BFA when the cost was only gold to respec Azerite.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Or maybe he is the piece of shit.

    When you have the easy option to do much better DPS, why wouldn't you take it?
    Because it's a video game, not the fucking SATs.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

    Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.
    This... this honestly doesn't make any sense... What you are describing is the definition of customization...

    What you are arguing for is permanence and a lack of customization and I don't think many people are on board with judging by the posts.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Are you under the impression that a large percentage of players are competitive mythic raiders and pvp esports competitors? Seriously? I mean that's a new level of delusion I've never even seen before.
    No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    Few things here you are either leaving out or flat out ignoring...

    You don't "pick" one covenant you help all four one in each zone. The idea that only one will "lend" you their power is already contrived from a story point of view.

    Nothing about the game would change for you if covenants were treated the same as any other talent row. Blizzard trying to punish people who enjoy multiple aspects of their game at high levels seems self destructive and played out poorly in BFA when the cost was only gold to respec Azerite.
    You help all four and then are faced with a choice between them. The intent of helping them all is to give you a good idea of what they are all about before you make the decision. The entire covenant progression system is unique to each covenant.

    You aren't being "punished" you fucking baby. Get a grip on reality, whiner.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The abilities are part of the aesthetics of the covenant. These are inseparable things, not distinct features of the covenants. It would be nonsensical for a member of one covenant to be running around using the abilities of another covenant. It defeats the purpose of the system.
    Who cares about that if it hampers the actual gameplay and turns it into frustrating system? This isn't 2004 WoW. We can switch specialisations with the click of a button but somehow switching out covenant abilities goes too far? I don't understand what exactly you're arguing for here.
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Gear as a source of customization has largely been stripped out of the game, because of the same demands for homogenization that you are making regarding this system. Gear is almost strictly a source of advancement now, not customization.

    Talents are constantly hot-swappable. That's not customization. If everyone has access to the same talents all the time, they are not customized.
    Okay, I get it now.
    Old gear was more interesting and impactful and therefor was "customization" even though it was always hot-swappable.
    Talents currently are interesting and impactful but they're not "customization" because they're hot-swappable.

    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-04-07 at 01:00 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    This... this honestly doesn't make any sense... What you are describing is the definition of customization...

    What you are arguing for is permanence and a lack of customization and I don't think many people are on board with judging by the posts.
    Customization requires some degree of permanence. If you can change at any moment, it isn't customization.

    And the fact that this board is full of crybabys who throw tantrums over everything in the game does not mean that the general playerbase thinks that way.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #210
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?

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    The purpose is to find bugs and tune things, not to decide whether to radically alter the core design of the product.
    Then they should actually tune things before release of the game, my point with legion was extreme drastic balance changes during live game which should have been adjusted way before the release. Azerite armor was dumb as fuck but no one expected it to just magically get deleted, the smartest option for Blizz is to not design retarded systems in the first place. (I'm guessing thats what you're referring to with core design)

  11. #211
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlhak View Post

    If you think Blizzard is listening to its playerbase and making adjustments to their games following their feedback, you are just a fanatic.
    See...the problem is that you seem to think there is a "playerbase" that speaks with one voice. Nope....there are tons of different opinions, even on a "flying yes / no" question the thread here went for 1000 pages. And I am not exaggerating.

    Oh yeah...apparently they did listen and removed TF / WF - and hey...there already is a thread how "TF/WF was fine, by removing it they caved in to whiners". But I guess it doesn't count because now Corruption is cancer, the worst ever and killed the game.

    So spare me that "Doesn't listen to the playerbase" generalisation and calling anyone who disagree with your opinion or agreeing with Blizzard a fanatic.

    So...do you still play and why? Or when did you finally quit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Sure... this may shock you but not everyone wants the same thing.

    For me personally, add flying, remove the clutter, add a 3rd raid tier, remove legendary quest, and WoD is a pretty good expansion.

    I’m on the extreme end here (didn’t used to be this way but most people like me have quit), and they’re not going to go that way now, in the declining years they’ve made the game about those who want to play every day.
    Adding this post to emphasise my point about the playerbase. In reply to poster I quoted first. not everyone wants the same thing. There is a thing called playerbase. Sure. But there is NOTHING that the "playerbase" wants unanimously. Not one thing.
    Last edited by det; 2020-04-07 at 01:01 PM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Who cares about that if it hampers the actual gameplay and turns it into frustrating system? This isn't 2004 WoW. We can switch specialisations with the click of a button but somehow switching out covenant abilities goes too far? I don't understand what exactly you're arguing for here.
    I'm arguing that the destruction of customization has ultimately been incredibly poor for the game.

    I find the gameplay more fun, not less fun, when I can make MEANINGFUL customization choices for my character. I do not find it fun when I am a carbon copy of everyone else.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You help all four and then are faced with a choice between them. The intent of helping them all is to give you a good idea of what they are all about before you make the decision. The entire covenant progression system is unique to each covenant.

    You aren't being "punished" you fucking baby. Get a grip on reality, whiner.
    I mean it really does seem like the goal of this is to punish people who play at higher levels. There are talents that will make or break a class at high level pve and pvp. The argument you are putting forward of "muh rp" doesn't make sense either. Players having the ability to swap talents to enjoy their style of game play in no way hinders your ability to shackle yourself to a single talent should you so chose.

    It leads me to believe that your argument for this is based more around the idea you enjoy "min-maxers" as you put it being put off rather then any real enjoyment you gain from such a system.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?
    i can do enough dps with frost, so why would i play the spec i hate? if we clear the content, why would it be the issue that i had 5-10% lower dps than i could with unholy?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    10 pages of people bitching about ability balance when there are...

    ...no numbers listed against any of these abilities
    ...also soulbinds to take into account when it comes to covenant choice

    And let's not forget that most of the min/maxing whinging people do in this game is probably not even relevant to them because the extra 0.5% doesn't actually make that much of a difference unless your a hardcore raiding guild pushing content for world firsts.

    But haters gotta hate I guess.
    Don’t need numbers if the basic mechanical functions are unbalanced. “The Hunt” will always be BiS for DH because of how it works. There is no niche for the ability, it works in every part of moment to moment gameplay and has the function of the BiS legion legendary with the extra fury generation. The other abilities can not compete with it, at all. But it’s tied to the fuckin Night Fae which I can guarantee 90% of DH’s don’t want.

    Similar OP abilities, the warrior banner. I don’t play enough of the other specs to distinctly tell which is broken, but I’m sure there’s an obvious BiS for each.

    So the argument that “we don’t have the numbers, it’s not released yet” is bullshit, dead on arrival.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesbote View Post
    No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.
    Except each of these abilities will be an improvement. The difference between one or the other will probably amount to the differences between one talent and another, a percentage point or two of DPS, etc.

    The majority of players either don't give a shit about squeezing out an extra 0.5% dps at the expense of playing what they enjoy OR only give a shit about such meager gains because elitist internet warriors have convinced them that failing to play like a member of Method is somehow failing at the game.

  17. #217
    this is just a new rental talent tier with 4 abilities but each one requires some godawful amount of time to unlock or switch to

    just another unnecessary 'system' to add more grind and prevent us from keeping any power past level 100 (soon to change to a new number with the level squish)

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    Don’t need numbers if the basic mechanical functions are unbalanced. “The Hunt” will always be BiS for DH because of how it works. There is no niche for the ability, it works in every part of moment to moment gameplay and has the function of the BiS legion legendary with the extra fury generation. The other abilities can not compete with it, at all. But it’s tied to the fuckin Night Fae which I can guarantee 90% of DH’s don’t want.

    Similar OP abilities, the warrior banner. I don’t play enough of the other specs to distinctly tell which is broken, but I’m sure there’s an obvious BiS for each.

    So the argument that “we don’t have the numbers, it’s not released yet” is bullshit, dead on arrival.
    And still doesn't take into account soulbinds.

    And what if the extra fury is tiny gains? Still BIS?

    Sorry, I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

    But have fun complaining that you need 0.5% more DPS so you have "no choice" but to pick a certain Covenant.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesbote View Post
    No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.
    Not everyone is obsessed with optimization and perfection. That's the min-maxer attitude, and you are welcome to play the game that way, but stop demanding the entire game be organized around your irrational, OCD approach to a video game.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #220
    Covenants give 2 abilities: so-called covenant ratial, utility one and class specific combat one. Let's call them utility and combat abilities.
    During our leveling in shadowlands we meet and help all 4 covenants. After finishins each covenant's story we unlock new combat ability in special interface. Four abilities total. And at the end, we join one of covenants, get acces to cosmetics and utility ability, while still beeing able to pick 1 of 4 combat abilities anytime.
    This is how it should be done. That way we can have interesting, unique abilities with no issues.

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