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  1. #301
    Not even gonna read through the thread but I already know the 2 falacies that have been used ad nauseum:

    1.) "It's too early to tell! Stop complaining so early!"
    2.) "This only affects Mythic raiders! Nobody else ever cares about performance!"

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The point was that Balance should not matter as much as it does, because what we need is not more Balance, but more FUN gameplay.
    Balance is part of fun. There is no fun when your class underperforms and you have no spot in PvE and no chance in PvP.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Clickbait Mick View Post
    Not even gonna read through the thread but I already know the 2 falacies that have been used ad nauseum:

    1.) "It's too early to tell! Stop complaining so early!"
    2.) "This only affects Mythic raiders! Nobody else ever cares about performance!"
    The system is a failure by the simple fact "everyone who decided to pick a covenant for the ability will get f'ed if Blizzard nerfs/balances it"

    Literally everyone on planet earth who picked for the ability....will be f'ed eventually.

  4. #304
    Wouldn`t this only be a problem if these new covenant abilities are useable in raids/dungeons?

    I could be wrong but i haven`t found any information that states where
    and where they cannot be used.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Because in an RPG I want my character to be meaningfully distinct from other characters.
    don't play an mmo
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    People said this about Azerite gear for months without any response from the devs.

    Expect these to be just as bad.
    Exactly.

    Unfortunately, the majority of the playerbase are LFR heroes and WQ experts, so their standards are extremely low and these issues won't happen.

    Boy oh boy here we go again.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Clickbait Mick View Post
    Not even gonna read through the thread but I already know the 2 falacies that have been used ad nauseum:

    1.) "It's too early to tell! Stop complaining so early!"
    2.) "This only affects Mythic raiders! Nobody else ever cares about performance!"
    The argument isnt that nobody cares about performance. The argument is that this insane level of prioritizing performance is a choice you make, and a lot of us are tired of the game having everything fun removed from it to cater to a group of never-happy people that want to have their cake and eat it too: They want to prioritize performance over all else and want that to have no impact on the game for them.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I really want to live in the same dream land where having a system that allows you to swap abilities situationally provides less customization than a system in which every semi-serious DH will choose the same covenant for PvP because of a single ability.
    Situational swapping isn't customization, it's a chore you do before those situations.

    Imagine gems had +Aoe damage, or +single target damage. In your version (you can pull the gems out of your gear and put in others, changing them situationally) there is no customization. You simply switch over to AoE gems before AoE and you stop and switch over to ST gems before ST, because you are free to use the most appropriate tool for any given situation.

    In a situation where gems lock into armor and require a large amount of effort to remove so that other gems can be put in, you instead have to customize your character to be slightly better at AoE or slightly better at single target. There is an actual meaningful choice that creates differences between individual players instead of everyone putting on their AoE gems to be slightly better at AoE and then their ST gems to be slightly better at ST.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    don't play an mmo
    Most MMOs have meaningful character customization.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Balance is part of fun. There is no fun when your class underperforms and you have no spot in PvE and no chance in PvP.
    That doesn't happen. There is never a situation where you are disallowed from playing any PvE or you die in EVERY PvP fight. That's not the real world.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The argument isnt that nobody cares about performance. The argument is that this insane level of prioritizing performance is a choice you make, and a lot of us are tired of the game having everything fun removed from it to cater to a group of never-happy people that want to have their cake and eat it too: They want to prioritize performance over all else and want that to have no impact on the game for them.
    But we cant simply say if person X picked a covenant for the ability he is stupid.
    Some people prefer gameplay to roleplay...a lot of people.
    What is wrong with that?

    My only problem with this is that I KNOW my ability will get changed...im 10000% sure.
    And what then?

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The argument isnt that nobody cares about performance. The argument is that this insane level of prioritizing performance is a choice you make, and a lot of us are tired of the game having everything fun removed from it to cater to a group of never-happy people that want to have their cake and eat it too: They want to prioritize performance over all else and want that to have no impact on the game for them.
    "This insane level of prioritizing performance" - What the fuck does this even mean?

    The rest of your post is just hyperbolic opinionated nonsense where you make up an imaginary group of grumpy hardcore people that are ruining your experience. I can't take these posts seriously.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I dont think is problematic having people picking a Covenant just for the abilities (or for the transmogs)

    What i think is problematic is the people who pick the ability...will get f'ed if Blizzard nerfs it.

    Oh and i already can see the random forum poster telling me "is your fault for picking the ability....noob"
    Its going to be a crapshow because of the nerfs.
    or they will just swap... even if it takes couple hours to swap (we dont know hows that gonna work) it surely is worth the time if your only criteria for choosing covenant is ability...

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Most MMOs have meaningful character customization.
    You have race, class, spec, talents and transmog. your have meaningful customization already, as much as another other MMO.

    If you want to be a special little snowflake your looking in the wrong place in an MMO.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But we cant simply say if person X picked a covenant for the ability he is stupid.
    Some people prefer gameplay to roleplay...a lot of people.
    What is wrong with that?
    Go ahead and pick your covenant based on performance. Nobody is stopping you.

    My only problem with this is that I KNOW my ability will get changed...im 10000% sure.
    And what then?
    The same thing that happens when classes get balance changes. This isn't new.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    You have race, class, spec, talents and transmog. your have meaningful customization already, as much as another other MMO.

    If you want to be a special little snowflake your looking in the wrong place in an MMO.
    Obviously Blizzard disagrees with you because they made this system, so your condescending personal beliefs about the matter are worthless.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #315
    Field Marshal Miena's Avatar
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    I did start sweating when i read about classes receiving different abilities depending on the covenant they choose. That alone is already hard to get right, and once again we'll have class abilities that are only temporary but probably change up your gameplay style by a lot, which really i'm not a fan of..I'd rather want new spells that define the class more, than get 3rd party abilities of which there will of course be "the best" choice again which is just way more powerful or better to play with then others.

    That said there won't only be new abilities based off which covenant you choose. There'll also be those soul trees with passives and so on on TOP OF IT. For EACH covenant.

    Now not only would they need to balance all of this in terms of damage/healing etc output, nope, they also have to design every single fight in the expansion with all these abilities in mind. Not to mention PvP...

    With azerite gear, you could at least switch it out, albeit with an annoyingly high cost. Once you had pieces with your best traits (which were way better than most other traits), you ofc scrapped the old armor with the worst stats.
    But in Shadowlands, you choose the covenant, you greatly invest in it..it's an illusion of choice with lasting reprecussions. Those reprecussions aren't only related to gameplay related issues with your class; there's also social reprecussions because if the balance will be out of whack (which is very likely given the past) the community is gonna put out a lot of pressure on which is the "right" choice to take, and will change the way the game will be played because they have a lot of influence of course on how people will play their classes in different settings.

    Even in non-top raiding guilds, there's always players who will want the most strength out of their character both for themselves, and to be the best in their guild environment/logs.
    It will create frustration for their fellow raiders if they see some choose a playstyle that's noticably worse even though they keep wiping on this and that boss. I can even see people not taking those who have chosen a bad covenant to higher mplus keys, because it's like saying "idc about playing well or supporting my team lul" even if they do, just not to an extent where they sacrifice their RP game that's seemingly being offered with covenants.
    People will feel bad for not picking whats best, because they dont wanna let down their raid team, etc.. it's always been like this, and it's not gonna change this time around either.

    It's an illusion of choice. Because in reality, the community is going to set the standards, and once they do choice pretty much flies out of the window as the game is at endgame a multiplayer experience, which ofc depends on other players..and if they wanna play with you.

    On top of that, each covenant will have a vast amount of abilities and passives which seem to have a significant impact on how your class is gonna play and perform.

    I'm sorry, but after seeing what has happened with Azerite armor and essences, and then on top of that the corrupted armor system after the already big fail systems, i can't say that i'm hyped for this expansion afterall. They overcomplicate things AGAIN, and they will AGAIN have their backs to the wall if they go through with this system, and clean up the whole expansion after it again. In early wow, things went great without any of this 3rd party influencing your class abilities and strengths, because we had gear that mattered, and did that instead. It allowed for flexibility, and a certain security that eventually you'll be able to attain your max power level...through gear/tier sets.

    This worked so well and was a fun route of progression for your character as it visibly changed and got stronger at the same time. With the covenants, gear is just gonna be a buncha stats again, and there wont even be tier sets again.

    Visually and lore wise Shadowlands is still very interesting to me, but good lord the gameplay implications right now look dire based on how Blizzard has handled these very similar systems in BFA and Legion. I really really hope they'll greatly simplify this, and make covenants much more of a cosmetic and flavor/rp choice than determining your classes core gameplay..
    If you make the world relevant and interesting, the covenants could be opening ways for you to experience the world differently (like the nightfae animal forms), rather than change the way you play in the tower, raids, pvp, dungeons etc. Instead, give the classes new abilites by themselves, and let them be the lens through which you see the game as a whole, and let the covenants be the flavor choice.

    That's all i really hope for and have to say. I really wanna see Blizz win this time.. i wanna play WoW and have fun again, too. Pls good lord make it happen
    Last edited by Miena; 2020-04-07 at 02:26 PM.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Clickbait Mick View Post
    "This insane level of prioritizing performance" - What the fuck does this even mean?

    The rest of your post is just opinionated nonsense where you make up an imaginary group of grumpy hardcore people that are ruining your experience. I can't take these posts seriously.
    that means choosing ability that is 0,1% better over the one that you like more or over the set or other visual customisation, bcs you think that 0,1% loss of performance will cost you place in raid

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Clickbait Mick View Post
    "This insane level of prioritizing performance" - What the fuck does this even mean?

    The rest of your post is just hyperbolic opinionated nonsense where you make up an imaginary group of grumpy hardcore people that are ruining your experience. I can't take these posts seriously.
    This thread is full of people crying that if they don't have access to EVERY SINGLE COVENANT ABILITY ALL THE TIME they won't be able to perform properly and the game is ruined for them.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The same thing that happens when classes get balance changes. This isn't new.
    HUGE diference

    An ability im given the choice to pick is not a "class".

    Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    HUGE diference

    An ability im given the choice to pick is not a "class".

    Its like me offering you the choice to pick one of 10 different candy in my hand...you pick one....and then i decide to shit on the candy you picked.
    Or like picking one of 12 different classes.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".
    People have been saying that about video games for 25 years. Most of the time, there is little to no fine tuning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

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