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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If I have to change between each boss and depending if I want to tank or dps its most likely easier to maintain 2-3 identical characters, thats the main issue here.
    then do that, if you think that necessary, but unless you are in Method or another guild trying for world first i doubt it will be the case...

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Picking a class for the performance

    Picking an ability from a list of abilities for the performance

    One makes more sense than the other.
    Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks an ability) will get punished eventually and will have to change covenants.
    100% chance
    100000000% chance of that happening.

    We will all fail at picking covenants...
    I'm not sure why you think continuing to pretend covenants are 1 ability from a list of abilities is going to justify you having the same stance you just called mentally ill.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "Im trying to tell you EVERYONE who is like me (picks a class) will get punished eventually and will have to change classes.
    100% chance
    100000000% chance of that happening.

    We will all fail at picking class..."
    Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.
    I will get whatever the Venthyr give me because I like their aesthetics.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I'm not sure why you think continuing to pretend covenants are 1 ability from a list of abilities is going to justify you having the same stance you just called mentally ill.
    LOL tell me what you see here.
    What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

    Is it...a list? Of abilities?

    I already told you we cant judge people just because covenants for them are just a list.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I will get whatever the Venthyr give me because I like their aesthetics.
    And my name is Shadowpunk and im "doomed" because for me covenants are just a list of abilities and soulbinds?
    We can only hope Blizzard wont go "full nerf" on this abilities in PvP (i know they will though, they always do)

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    LOL tell me what you see here.
    What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

    Is it...a list? Of abilities?



    I already told you we cant judge people just because covenants for them are just a list.
    You understand that the class ability is ONE thing that you get from the covenant, right?

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You are, again, missing the point. What people are trying to tell you is that Balance does not matter as much as fun and cool things to play with. Thus adding new abilities that sound really fun is a good thing, even if they are not balanced.
    I'm not against adding new abilities. New abilities are almost always good and covenant abilities don't seem to be an exception in that regard. I'm against locking new abilities behind arbitrary barriers that will result in hampering gameplay for every remotely competetive player. Here's a fun fact: if you can switch between abilities, you can actually play with more fun and cool things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The fact that you see this: "Abomination Limb (Necrolord) - Sprout an additional limb for a limited time, dealing Shadow damage to nearby enemies. If an enemy is farther away from you, they are pulled to your location.", and immediately take it for a fact that this is the best PvP ability is a very good example for the dramatizing I was refering to.
    There is no information about how far the pull reaches, how long it stays active, what the CD is, how much damage it does or IF IT EVEN WORKS against players and you assume it is a fact that all DKs will use this for PvP, because it gives "incredible Utility".
    The fact that you think that everyone has to immediately jump to this conclusion from one line of completely open text from the first Alpha build with no further information shows that YOU lack understanding of how the game works. For example, DKs already CAN have a second charge of the pull in PvP and that is hardly the thing that was responsible for their nerf lately.
    Okay, let's divide this into different parts:
    1) We've had information about this ability prior to the announcement of the Shadowlands alpha.
    2) The pull range was set to 5m, the duration was 8 seconds and the CD was 90 seconds.
    3) There's no indication that covenant abilities won't work on players. This is, again, conjecture on your part
    4) I assume that DKs will take this for PvP every single time since it's not just "a second Death Grip" as you pointed out (wich is btw. a Blood only PvP talent which leads me to further question the sincerity of your argument) which would be strong in its own right (we had this as a set bonus back in the days). This ability is more like an overpowered version of Gorefiend's Grasp that allows you to keep multiple enemies from escaping or casting channeled spells for several seconds while also dealing damage. There's simply no way they will tune the other abilities in a way that would allow them to compete with this in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Your comment about the DK ability shows that you are quite capable of just assuming things so they fit your view of evil Blizzard gunning for you, but regardless. I choose to think that Blizzard is inherently on our side, you constantly assume they want to punish you and demand that everything in the game bends to your whim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You don't want interesting game play, better to have balanced passives that don't do anything instead of actually offering choices that might inconvenience you slightly, hmm?
    I never, ever advocated for "balanced passives". I simply think covenant abilities would provide better, more user friendly gameplay if you could switch between them without getting a slap on the wrist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yes, well, if you have such great understanding of the game you should know by now that PvP is a side gig. The game is not balanced around it and design decisions are not made based on it. Not should they. If enough PvPers cry then the abilities will simply not work in BGs anymore (just like the Corruption procs already do) and you have your wish that only the classes inherent imbalance will affect the game. Then you can enjoy the same gameplay of BFA.
    What I said about PvP was just an example for why these abilities will have a negative impact on gameplay and it also holds true for PvE since there will also be more or less obvious BiS options depending on your spec and the content you play. Also I don't get what you're arguing for here? That Blizzard doesn't like PvP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The point was that Balance should not matter as much as it does, because what we need is not more Balance, but more FUN gameplay.
    You can have fun gameplay that is also more balanced. In what way would these abilities be less fun if you could swap between them?

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    And my name is Shadowpunk and im "doomed" because for me covenants are just a list of abilities and soulbinds?
    Or you'll just pick one and be fine and all this crying and wailing will be for nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm not against adding new abilities. New abilities are almost always good and covenant abilities don't seem to be an exception in that regard. I'm against locking new abilities behind arbitrary barriers that will result in hampering gameplay for every remotely competetive player. Here's a fun fact: if you can switch between abilities, you can actually play with more fun and cool things.


    Okay, let's divide this into different parts:
    1) We've had information about this ability prior to the announcement of the Shadowlands alpha.
    2) The pull range was set to 5m, the duration was 8 seconds and the CD was 90 seconds.
    3) There's no indication that covenant abilities won't work on players. This is, again, conjecture on your part
    4) I assume that DKs will take this for PvP every single time since it's not just "a second Death Grip" as you pointed out (wich is btw. a Blood only PvP talent which leads me to further question the sincerity of your argument) which would be strong in its own right (we had this as a set bonus back in the days). This ability is more like an overpowered version of Gorefiend's Grasp that allows you to keep multiple enemies from escaping or casting channeled spells for several seconds while also dealing damage. There's simply no way they will tune the other abilities in a way that would allow them to compete with this in PvP.




    I never, ever advocated for "balanced passives". I simply think covenant abilities would provide better, more user friendly gameplay if you could switch between them without getting a slap on the wrist.


    What I said about PvP was just an example for why these abilities will have a negative impact on gameplay and it also holds true for PvE since there will also be more or less obvious BiS options depending on your spec and the content you play. Also I don't get what you're arguing for here? That Blizzard doesn't like PvP?


    You can have fun gameplay that is also more balanced. In what way would these abilities be less fun if you could swap between them?
    It's less fun for your character choices to have no meaningful impact on your character and then as a result, your character is a carbon copy of every character with the same class.

  9. #369
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Yeah this system is really dumb. I want to pick a covenant based on fantasy, not abilities. The necrolord ability is clearly a tank spell. As a tank, you'd be an idiot to choose any other covenant.

    And sure, they could add similar tank spells to the other covenants, but then ask yourself: what is the point in creating 4 spells that work almost identically? It's a lot of work for almost no gain. Just make 1 version of the spell, and detach it from covenant choices. Keep covenants to flavour stuff: cosmetics, story, minor perks. If you tie them to gameplay, people will be forced to certain specs, or the devs will waste time making 4 homogenous skillsets.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    LOL tell me what you see here.
    What is this that was presented to us on the official WoW website?

    Is it...a list? Of abilities?
    No.


    The devblog about the abilities specifically has a list of abilities. Are you maybe confused and don't understand what covenants are? Because that kinda seems like what is happening here.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Or you'll just pick one and be fine and all this crying and wailing will be for nothing.
    Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

    But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    No.

    The devblog about the abilities specifically has a list of abilities. Are you maybe confused and don't understand what covenants are? Because that kinda seems like what is happening here.
    You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

    But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...
    The covenant doesn't just give you one ability. It gives you two, and soulbinds, and no matter how many times you insist on repeating this dumb as shit lie the reality won't change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.
    So then prioritize it. Nobody is stopping you.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's less fun for your character choices to have no meaningful impact on your character and then as a result, your character is a carbon copy of every character with the same class.
    This has pretty much always been the case with WoW though. At least since MoP all of the minor talent options were baked into specs as passives which reduced the choices to:
    Spec->Talents->Glyphs->Gear/Stat distribution - That's your character.
    But even in classic the differences between Rogue A and Rogue B are incredibly small and can be boiled down to the same things and even back then you could respec easily if you had the gold.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Im just trying to make a point. Everyone like me will probably get punished. Id say 99% chance.

    But people keep comparing a class to an ability we pick from a list...

    - - - Updated - - -



    You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.
    When you pick a class you are picking an aesthetic combined with a series of abilities and customization options.

    When you pick a covenant you are picking an aesthetic combined with a series of abilities and customization options.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    This has pretty much always been the case with WoW though. At least since MoP all of the minor talent options were baked into specs as passives which reduced the choices to:
    Spec->Talents->Glyphs->Gear/Stat distribution
    But even in classic the differences between Rogue A and Rogue B are incredibly small and can be boiled down to the same things and even back then you could respec easily if you had the gold.
    Respec costs skyrocket extremely quickly if you are going it daily, and gear didn't cross spec quite as easily back then. Racials also had greater impacts on gameplay.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    I’m one of the top Havoc DH’s in NA, I can almost guarantee you are a LFR raider. Go ahead and link your character if you’re not.
    Grats and irrelevant. This is called "logical fallacy".

    Also, I'm one of the top Unholy DK's in NA. I'm sure you believe me since I'm surely supposed to be believe you. See how that works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    Soulbinds won’t be as big of an issue and can be tweaked better as they are most likely small passive effects.
    Cool, where did you get this information? Alternatively, do you have the power of seeing the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    To balance mechanically imbalanced abilities they would need to shove the OP one so far in the dirt that it would just become useless afterwards. So in the case of “The Hunt” it would need an ridiculously long cool down or only provide 1-3 extra fury to not become dominant. In which case it’s not worth taking in any case, and has now become a dead ability which isn’t fun for anyone.
    Because there's absolutely nothing in between OP and useless. Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    So please, stfu unless you know what you’re talking about. These aren’t .5% dps increases. You probably can’t recall players losing raid spots, or not getting invited to groups because they didn’t have the BiS legandaries in the beginning of Legion. But the forums were flooded with them. So it was a very real problem, and it will be again if they don’t address it.
    Please.

    A) until you have fucking numbers you don't know the % dps increase.
    B) more logical fallacies where you try to discredit the argument by discrediting the person
    C) like legion legendaries can be remotely compared in any logical way to these covenant abilities WHICH HAVE NO NUMBERS
    D) forums are not indicative of the actual playerbase, just the vocal minority (which happens to include the more hardcore playerbase that absolutely does min/mix for a 1% dps gain


    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I mean... unless you are really,really,really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see a different between a movement and do more dmg ability...
    I mean... unless you are really, really, really bad at the game I think by now the average player should be able to see that a movement ability might keep you alive to do more dps than a simply do more damage ability.

    And what are you on about anyway? Literally every covenant class ability effects damage in a positive way. There is no simple "pick movement or pick damage" choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    You cant judge people for prioritizing gameplay over roleplay...you cant.
    This is absolutely true. The opposite is absolutely true as well.

    Alas the people that prioritize gameplay at the expense of roleplay seem to be complaining a whole lot about the impact this will have on their roleplay. (without having any numbers mind you)

    Here's an idea. Suck it up. Make a choice. If you want to min/max covenants, do it. If you want to pick the covenant you like the most, do that instead and accept the minor "hit" to your effectiveness.

    People claim to want meaningful choice, but it seems like a lot of people whining don't actually want that. Because meaningful choice means there's a cost for making that choice. That you leave something behind. If there's no cost to the choice, it's not meaningful.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Dungo View Post
    How do they intend to balance this? The abilities have such HUGE differences that will result in one being far better than the other three. Did Ion not see this coming?

    After the disaster of BfA class design, this has got me worried. Will Shadowlands also have massive issues with class design now?
    I'm optimistic they'll figure something out. Anything is better than corruption at this point.

    Reading over a handful of the abilities, it sounds like not one covenant will be ideal in all situations. Some are good for PvP. Some or M+. Some for raiding.

    The only real one that concerns me is the Venthir signature teleport. Depending on how this works, it could be concerning for high-end M+ players. At least for some skip(s) that could save a few seconds.

    I'm personally not too concerned with covenant abilities yet. We don't know their actual values and a handful of them are still in-work.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The covenant doesn't just give you one ability. It gives you two, and soulbinds, and no matter how many times you insist on repeating this dumb as shit lie the reality won't change.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So then prioritize it. Nobody is stopping you.
    I just want Blizzard to offer us a "free covenant transfer" if they nerf heavily one ability.
    You cant downplay the importance of this abilities.
    They seem very important.

    I know a covenant is not just the ability.

  18. #378
    Legendary! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    INB4 comments saying, "Got to wait for fine tuning and testing".

    Look where that got us in BFA, nothing has changed since beta, we were given shitty azerite armor and horrible class design.

    Don't get your hopes up, expect these "rental" abilities to be absolute shit. There will always be a bis ability and a go to for pvp.
    What are you smoking? "Nothin has changed since beta", They added more azerite to help certain specs and they added essences on top of that.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Nobody picks an ability from a list of abilities because they look pretty...no one.
    I've narrowed down my pick of Covenants to Maldraxxus or Venthyr, because those are two story-arcs I'm most interest in moving forward in. I'll take the Covenant and Soulbind abilities that they end up giving me, unless the difference in power is so stark I literally can't perform optimally with another Convenant (which I sincerely hope doesn't prove the case). I'll eat a minor power loss with no real qualms, though; not if I get the experience I want for a given character.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I've narrowed down my pick of Covenants to Maldraxxus or Venthyr, because those are two story-arcs I'm most interest in moving forward in. I'll take the Covenant and Soulbind abilities that they end up giving me, unless the difference in power is so stark I literally can't perform optimally with another Convenant (which I sincerely hope doesn't prove the case). I'll eat a minor power loss with no real qualms, though; not if I get the experience I want for a given character.
    I had the same hopes as you for the covenant abilities
    I thought, for some reason, they would offer minimal power.

    But...by the early view they seem insane.

    And because i am a "gameplay nerd" more than i am a "roleplay nerd"...i will go for the "utility/power/PvP gameplay one".

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