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  1. #141
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlhak View Post
    Blizzard fanatics will never get your point.

    This system will ruin the game like azerite did for BfA.

    No one knows why Blizzard abandoned the talent system to implement new abilities.
    Just because somebody disagree, doesn't make them a "Blizzard fanatic"

    But even if you like to call them that no matter what - this is not a problem for the "Blizzard fanatics". Blizzard fanatics don't need an excuse to play the game. They play it because they like it. Ofc you can also say they play it because they are blind fanboys, brainwashed idiots, white knights etc etc.

    Which is pretty bad...sure.

    Now...what is YOUR excuse? I'd say anyone here who claims that "Blizzard is incompetent, never learns, never listens, ruined the game, done so for x-pac after x-pac and will continue to do so" yet STILL gives them their money has a LOT more to answer for than somebody who enjoys playing the game for whatever reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    I think in the end I'm making my choice by aesthetics and flavor instead of numbers. If BFA is their model for power progression the early game is going to suck regardless.
    Absolutely, same here. I sure hope any cosmetics I unlock will apply to all armour types - but as it is, atm I will make my choice on RPG reasons.

    Kyrian for Priest / Paladin
    Necrolords for Warlock, DK
    Fae for Druid
    Venthyr for Warrior

    Undecided on all my other alts...of which I have many
    Last edited by det; 2020-04-07 at 11:21 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    If you can choose between two players of the same spec with similar skill level, one with the right Covenant/Legendary and other with wrong Covenant/Legendary, of course you should pick the one right items/abilities. The worse one can get pity spot of there are still room in the group.
    Or, you know, you have a rotation completely ignoring stuff the player himself does not have any control over it. I still don't have Infinite Stars 3. I don't get benched outside of my normal rotation.
    Because... well we raid mythic but we are not in the world first race.

    If you are in a guild which demands from you to take the best one then well... bad for you. But that is the smaller evil than having a game completely devoid of flavor or meaning in anything you take. I will have to take the best one for PvE raiding. Because it is our main focus. Mind you that the others are not going to be useless. Just not as effective as the others. People act as if it was a choice between all or nothing.

    If you want to be a high end player you have to make choices that maybe don't really sit well with you. I don't like playing with stellar flare. But i have to because it sims the highest. Would i only raid Heroic i would not care and i didn't when i was only raiding heroic. Why not remove talents altogether? Just give everyone everything so everyone can do anything in any situation. This way us poor poor mythic raider and high end PVP Players or Key pusher are not pigeonholed into choices in an RPG.

    Then why have gear? I have to choose there too and on top of it it is RNG! Bam! You play Dota or lol now.

    This is the first thing Blizz did in a long time that has actual flavor. Something meaningful to choose from. And of course MMO-Champion flips completely. Somtimes i think no one actually wants to play a MMORPG anymore and more something like battlefield

  3. #143
    First iteration of signature abilities look like trash

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    So here's the thing: covenant abilities not balanced doesn't matter for 90% of players, they will choose whatever they like most.

    It matters for competetive players in higher mythic+ or organized raids. Minority in the game, loud majority on forums.
    with this mindset nothing matters when it comes to balance so who cares, just throw some numbers and a nice effect and everything will be fine.
    pane, nutella e demon hunter

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And what amkes you think your suggestion would make it more enyoable? Having impactcfull choice is far more fun than have all options avaiable to you for free so you just pick best one and play thats pretty boring.
    So choosing what is essentially a talent and locking the option to switch out that talent behind a grind is what makes it "an impactful choice" for you? Are regular talents not impactful choices?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    People that only look to the meta game to let it dictate how and what they should play will always suffer for that nonsensical choice.
    As I said, I don't look exclusively "to the meta game". I also care about cosmetics and the actual lore of the game. But this doesn't make covenants better for me. It makes them even worse. If I only cared about competetiveness I'd just pick the BiS option and be done with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You just want to take the few words we heard 5 month ago and take them as a sign that it will be nigh impossible to switch, because that fits better in your world view of Blizzard hating the players for some reason.
    Yes? I'm assuming that Blizzard isn't lying to us and therefor when they say they want to do A they'll do A and not B. Why would you assume that they're not going to make switching covenants punishing when it's literally what they said? Are you ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Competetively as in...? MDI, World First, PvP World Championship?
    Competetively as in competing with other players?

    The rest of your post is simply ridiculous. The existence of imbalance in the game doesn't mean it's ok or good to intentionally add more layers of imbalance to the game.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The problem with Azerite traits initially is that they were boring as compared to the power bestowed upon players using the Legion Artifact weapon system, even with some of the Artifact weapon skills baked into the classes as baseline abilities. The Covenant system's powers are anything but boring as typified by the debates and arguments present in this very thread. They may be OP, yes; but one of the purposes of the Alpha/Beta system is balancing passes - so I'd fully expect some of these skills to be reworked, balanced, or changed utterly between now and Shadowlands going live, as has happened in almost every case. And yes, for those of you who want to repeat the cliched "Alpha/Beta won't fix it" even Azerite Traits got a balance pass and several traits were iterated on, it just didn't fix their primary issue of being boring as opposed to being unbalanced.
    This is indeed the thing. These abilities look a lot more interesting then the Azerites ever did. Their relevance to a characters playstyle feels somewhere close to the "big traits" on the Artifact Weapons in Legion, while the passives will come from the soulbinds. BFA missed out on these defining things at the start and only later gave some of it out with the essences. Meaning the classes were reduced to their basic playstyle with only passive buffs proccing now and then. It wasn't horrible, but something was missing.
    This system shows they learned something there and together with the "unpruning" I am quite excited how my DK will play in Shadowlands, with her third arm and flesh and bone shield bubble.

  7. #147
    We don't need to see numbers to see if something is completely broken. If one just reads some mechanics behind the spells, the brokenness is completely obvious. That's no hating at all, since I exactly know which cov my DK will take - and my alts won't care, they take the ones that look better for them.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    I know people like to just throw phrases around, but "I don't think this can be balanced" can really not be countered with "it is just alpha."

    The numbers don't have to be balanced right now, because it's alpha, but the problem here is that the basic idea behind the system is flawed. We have seen over and over again how the community deals with choices. We have seen how blizzard reacts to imbalances. Both of that doesnt work with a system where you tie yourself to a faction.

    This will just the up as the constant source of anger that blizzard will try to balance for two patches until they finally give up and open up the restrictions.
    This indeed.
    The numbers are not the problem, the tweaking isn't not the problem. The problem is the fundamental design of many different abilities with many different effects that by their basic design will be problematic.
    And that is very much something to complain about as early as possible because it takes time and resources to change this system. Tho I expect Blizzard is already to far committed to scrap this and go with something else that will allow more choice for players without punishing them for picking the 'wrong' faction.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #149
    A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.
    change can't wait.

  10. #150
    The major problem is going to be that there will be a "best" choice, which means you are handicapping yourself if you pick something for flavor. like if I want my Paladin to be Kyrian because of the lore/flavor (they are basically angelic after all) but oh hey the Necro guys have the best Paladin ability. So all of a sudden I can't pick what fits my character, I have to pick the better choice or I risk being rejected from content because I don't have whatever FOTM ability has been deemed the only optimal choice.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.
    Well unless their fun covenant is the top DPS for their spec, it will. No way around that fact.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.
    Because ultimately it will. We all know how the min-maxing 1% mindset trickles down to affect the rest of the game, even if we deny it happens. Once all the mythic guilds have decided that only X covenant for Y class is the "right" choice everyone else will parrot that whether or not it really affects them, the perception will be you aren't playing optimally.

    We saw it with talents, we saw it with Artifacts and Legendaries, we saw it with Azerite/Essences/Corruption, we'll see it with Covenant.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2020-04-07 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Meant essences not benthic, but benthic had that problem too

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Are regular talents not impactful choices?
    you can switch talents for each boss, so... no, not at all?

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you can switch talents for each boss, so... no, not at all?
    Okay. What does the word impactful mean to you? Can you define it for me?

  15. #155
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The major problem is going to be that there will be a "best" choice, which means you are handicapping yourself if you pick something for flavor. like if I want my Paladin to be Kyrian because of the lore/flavor (they are basically angelic after all) but oh hey the Necro guys have the best Paladin ability. So all of a sudden I can't pick what fits my character, I have to pick the better choice or I risk being rejected from content because I don't have whatever FOTM ability has been deemed the only optimal choice.
    I don't think there's any way to truly prevent that mindset for persevering, to be honest. The main point to underline here is what "handicapping yourself" actually entails on a statistical level. If we're talking like a 20-30% power increase for a given choice relative to the others then yes, that's bad; but if the difference is in the single digits then that's not really so bad. Some Covenant picks are always going to work out to be statistically superior to others for certain classes or specs, that's kind of how unique abilities and math works in the final accounting. But if the difference is slight, then I think it's okay to make a sacrifice for aesthetic or narrative preference.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  16. #156
    They gonna need a lot of feedback and listening to it, it looks not so good

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Because ultimately it will. We all know how the min-maxing 1% mindset trickles down to affect the rest of the game, even if we deny it happens. Once all the mythic guilds have decided that only X covenant for Y class is the "right" choice everyone else will parrot that whether or not it really affects them, the perception will be you aren't playing optimally.

    We saw it with talents, we saw it with Artifacts and Legendaries, we saw it with Azerite/Benthic/Corruption, we'll see it with Covenant.
    well if people are unable to make their choice that is on them, not on blizz
    my frost DK will play necrolords even if i didnt get any ability at all just bcs of the transmog set

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    well there is this thing called "testing" which will be done over the next few months before the expansion is released. I mean we don't even have them all yet. I am guessing Blizz will try to make them attractive to the type of content that you enjoy doing, whether that be M+ or Raiding or PvP
    Because legendaries in legion and azerite pieces / essences / corruptions were SOOOOOO balanced and not at all a dumb lottery.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    well if people are unable to make their choice that is on them, not on blizz
    my frost DK will play necrolords even if i didnt get any ability at all just bcs of the transmog set
    Come on. Blizzard knows exactly that a large part of the playerbase cares about their performance. Forcing those players to choose between performance and aesthetics is absolutely on Blizzard since they're the ones who designed this system.

    I mean, it's cool that you don't care about these things but many people do and it can really negatively impact their experience.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    This indeed.
    The numbers are not the problem, the tweaking isn't not the problem. The problem is the fundamental design of many different abilities with many different effects that by their basic design will be problematic.
    And that is very much something to complain about as early as possible because it takes time and resources to change this system. Tho I expect Blizzard is already to far committed to scrap this and go with something else that will allow more choice for players without punishing them for picking the 'wrong' faction.
    I agree, theres problems in this system.

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