Page 12 of 17 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
... LastLast
  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    My problem with frost is if you are not specced into BoS it has neither depth or complexity it's impossible to fail. Instead of fixing this core issue (which for example the alpha for the next expo might be a good time to do), they continue to push Bos (a talent) as frost's pseudo core mechanic rather than doing the core work the spec needs. As mentioned above this is further imflamed by implication I should be thankful to have 2h back (even though they have and likely will do nothing to make it viable) and weird niche borderline unusable skills like DC instead of actual meaningful work on what is this point an archaic spec.
    Frost mostly suffers from the fact that it was always a very simple spec that only had some semblance of depth due to how the old rune system worked with stuff like blood tap and plague leech added on top. In Legion they took that away and basically transformed what was already the most braindead melee spec into a simple CD based builder/spender playstyle.
    I also don't get why people want Breath of Sindragosa to be weak/removed. It's the only mechanic Frost has left that requires some brain tissue to use.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    Heh, can you imagine if this is the end result come whatever expansion is after shadowlands... Heck blizz may bring out the old excuse of "balancing 2h and DW for frost was proving to difficult so frost will now be X" At that point honestly just give people a visual glyph for whatever frost spec they want to play. But I believe, and maybe it is my naivety or me being to optimistic, but I am hoping that blizz will do a better job this time around balancing 2h and dw frost.
    That is exactly what I’m expecting

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    That's fair, as long as I have access to the buttons I don't care who uses/doesn't use them. I've just seen so many PvE centric players talk about wanting "useless" buttons removed that I as a PvPer used every game.
    I am with you 100% on this

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Frost mostly suffers from the fact that it was always a very simple spec that only had some semblance of depth due to how the old rune system worked with stuff like blood tap and plague leech added on top. In Legion they took that away and basically transformed what was already the most braindead melee spec into a simple CD based builder/spender playstyle.
    I also don't get why people want Breath of Sindragosa to be weak/removed. It's the only mechanic Frost has left that requires some brain tissue to use.
    I love breath, when you set it up right it feels really good to use.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - let's get real everyone, classic needs #somechanges get over it.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I love breath, when you set it up right it feels really good to use.
    Yeah. When they introduced Breath in WoD it was some of the best fun I've had with my DK.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah. When they introduced Breath in WoD it was some of the best fun I've had with my DK.
    Even more fun if you have the talent that buffs the damage and duration of your remorseless winter when you spend runes and pop empowered rune weapon after you hit both and have a flurry of insane frost damage.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - let's get real everyone, classic needs #somechanges get over it.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    It doesn't need to go back to weapon damage scaling in order to hit hard. Could either reintroduce might of the frozen wastes, rework a talent, or make an honor talent which would increase obliterate/frostscythe by a %.
    Oh yeah cause that woldnt make the spec more of a shitshow than already is. Youre delusional.

  8. #228
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Finding a stranger in the alps.
    Posts
    3,544
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Oh yeah cause that woldnt make the spec more of a shitshow than already is. Youre delusional.
    Wanting a playstyle to return doesn't make me delusional my man. I just want to have fun.

  9. #229
    as of right now in alpha its garbage.Sad to say.It is super slow and can't compete with duel wield.I like the idea of frost 2hander though so i hope they can work on this.

    Edit:I should say i like 2 hander frost not that i like the idea since it was a thing till legion

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vilememory View Post
    ALL OF THE HYPE! LIFE HAS MEANING AGAIN! I gotta start farming up two handers again for transmog... I gotta get people to help me do the damn blood quest for Shadowmourne. Fornicate me!
    You don't have Shadowmourne as a death knight :O begone peasant :P

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigcountry11782 View Post
    as of right now in alpha its garbage.Sad to say.It is super slow and can't compete with duel wield.I like the idea of frost 2hander though so i hope they can work on this.

    Edit:I should say i like 2 hander frost not that i like the idea since it was a thing till legion

    - - - Updated - - -



    You don't have Shadowmourne as a death knight :O begone peasant :P
    They will have to balance 2 subspec within one spec. Guess whats gonna happen to that spec balance wise for the whole duration of the xpac given blizz record of balacing? Its gonna be a dead spec if you care about pushing content. Or at most one is gonna push so far ahead thats the other wont be worth a damn. Congrats you did it!!!!
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-04-28 at 03:33 AM.

  11. #231
    Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by liljc711 View Post
    Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?
    It would go a long way towards fixing it (since fundamentally 2h not having razorice means it doesn't scale with mastery like DW) but there's also the issue of KM and RA scaling with swing speed and frost having multiple talents that are tied to swing speed.

    Essentially all the 'fixes' 2h needs to be viable are small and easy enough on their own but when you add them up they outweigh the amount of work blizzard has done to entire classes this expansion so it seems unlikely they're going to put in that effort for half of frost.

  13. #233
    I wonder if making 2h a talent would help in balancing it out?

    Perhaps the talent would function in a way that would apply the most beneficial rune to 2h while leaving the weapon open for the "second" one to be applied to the weapon with the damage variable being.. frost damage, Oblit damage/Crit, or KM procs or something. Then all that would need adjusting is that variable if 2h lags behind or jumps too far ahead.

    Sounds like it would work to me on paper... in practice not so sure.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

  14. #234
    As an FYI.

    2h Frost is in the game, but its still so out of tune its unplayable in the Alpha. You get almost no procs, and the dmg drop off is noticeable vs dual wield. But, it is in there, and its exciting to see how it will go.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by liljc711 View Post
    Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?
    And why two hander frost dks deserve having 2 weapon enchants over all other classes? Just to please the role players whinning about not able to role play like the lich king? We are not special cookies. You wanted 2 handers for the aesthetics and you got what you wanted. You have no right to ask for balance on top of that when it was pointed out multiple times all the probleems it had in the past and would have back again.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2020-05-01 at 06:06 AM.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    And why one hander frost dks deserve having 2 weapon enchants over all other classes?
    I'm gonna assume that was a typo, because DW frost does use two runes instead of one. It's part of what's made it better for raiding for years, along with the faster attack speed, which means more procs. In any case, Blizzard could tune it if they wanted, and what it looks like next to other classes is irrelevant since having runeforges is essentially DK's true remaining "hero class perk" since Legion, when everyone else got a class hall and a class mount, and the leveling advantage is about to become irrelevant in Shadowlands. The more relevant question is why 2h Frost should have double runeforges against Unholy and Blood.

    But in any case, double runeforges wouldn't really fix the problem by itself. To make 2h Frost there needs to be modifier attached to wielding a 2h weapon that changes the way procs work to account for the slower attack speed, and probably a damage modifier as well. Basically an actual functioning Might of the Frozen Wastes--I say functioning because Blizzard could never tune this properly before. Without that, it would probably be easier for Blizzard to just throw the towel and give Frost the ability to xmog 1h into 2h, artifact style. Just make it a pure cosmetic thing and be done with it.

  17. #237
    What shits me is Frost on the whole needs a proper legion tier overhaul.

    Instead, we get crutched harder on BoS and a lazy half-cooked unbalanced 2h option. Then we're stuck here thinking of ways to claw 2h back to zero instead of ways to actually improve the spec.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    It would go a long way towards fixing it (since fundamentally 2h not having razorice means it doesn't scale with mastery like DW) but there's also the issue of KM and RA scaling with swing speed and frost having multiple talents that are tied to swing speed.

    Essentially all the 'fixes' 2h needs to be viable are small and easy enough on their own but when you add them up they outweigh the amount of work blizzard has done to entire classes this expansion so it seems unlikely they're going to put in that effort for half of frost.
    Alternatively, you could just tie the two combat styles to different talent combinations and try to balance them against each other. E.g. makes more sense for DW to be BoS and 2H Obliteration
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Alternatively, you could just tie the two combat styles to different talent combinations and try to balance them against each other. E.g. makes more sense for DW to be BoS and 2H Obliteration
    KM oblits deal frost damage now so we're still back to the razorice issue.



    I'm just going to say it (even though it's going to be massively unpopular here) 2h is too much work to balance and resultantly bad for the spec. Frost is simply not designed around 2h anymore and if they wanted to appease people who don't care about balance it should have just been a transmog option.
    Losing a runeforge
    This is the biggest issue (always has), razorice means more scaling with mastery and the more abilities that deal frost damage the stronger mastery (thus razorice, thus dw) becomes. There is also the possibility a dedicated BoS build with hysteria will become the default option.
    Just let 2h use two runeforges
    Sure it's an easy fix but it's work, work that's now going into a weapon option instead of the spec

    KM and RA proc rate
    They're tied to swing speed. 2h means less, slower swings which means less KM procs and slower gameplay. Go and watch some 2h alpha footage it's like its being played back at half speed.
    Just change the ppm or give 2h a special passive
    Slightly harder fix and now we're into differential balancing and we're starting to circle the drain of pre legion problems.

    Talents like IT, FP and RA scale better with swing speed
    Speaks for itself. More, faster swings are better for these talents.
    Just remake the talents or add new talents for 2h!
    Now we're getting into the realm of significant work and the true issue here. If we start splitting and rebalancing talents for dw and 2h 1. We're back to the balance headache they wanted to get rid of in the first place and 2. If we have dedicated talents for 2h and dw that means both 2h and dw have fewer options nd thus each option is individually worse.

    Ignoring the talent problem, even if blizzard just implemented the 'easy fixes' they would be putting more work into a weapon option for half of a single spec then they've put in for some classes this expansion.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    KM oblits deal frost damage now so we're still back to the razorice issue.



    I'm just going to say it (even though it's going to be massively unpopular here) 2h is too much work to balance and resultantly bad for the spec. Frost is simply not designed around 2h anymore and if they wanted to appease people who don't care about balance it should have just been a transmog option.
    Losing a runeforge
    This is the biggest issue (always has), razorice means more scaling with mastery and the more abilities that deal frost damage the stronger mastery (thus razorice, thus dw) becomes. There is also the possibility a dedicated BoS build with hysteria will become the default option.
    Just let 2h use two runeforges
    Sure it's an easy fix but it's work, work that's now going into a weapon option instead of the spec

    KM and RA proc rate
    They're tied to swing speed. 2h means less, slower swings which means less KM procs and slower gameplay. Go and watch some 2h alpha footage it's like its being played back at half speed.
    Just change the ppm or give 2h a special passive
    Slightly harder fix and now we're into differential balancing and we're starting to circle the drain of pre legion problems.

    Talents like IT, FP and RA scale better with swing speed
    Speaks for itself. More, faster swings are better for these talents.
    Just remake the talents or add new talents for 2h!
    Now we're getting into the realm of significant work and the true issue here. If we start splitting and rebalancing talents for dw and 2h 1. We're back to the balance headache they wanted to get rid of in the first place and 2. If we have dedicated talents for 2h and dw that means both 2h and dw have fewer options nd thus each option is individually worse.

    Ignoring the talent problem, even if blizzard just implemented the 'easy fixes' they would be putting more work into a weapon option for half of a single spec then they've put in for some classes this expansion.
    Frost needs to be reworked and has for a very long time. Much of the underlying design traces back to WotLK. Bringing back 2H Frost is a perfect excuse to fix all those underlying problems.

    All mechanics and talents related to weapon speed needs to be removed. That includes Killing Machine which is a pointless passive mechanic anyway. It may sound like a lot of work, but it's easily doable with the right vision for the spec. The absolute last thing they need to do is start individualizing talents or runeforges to prop up different weapon types. That's going down a road that leads to a situation that can't be balanced just like pre-Legion. No, they need to focus on a design that incorporates 2H and DW Frost from every angle.

    For example, here is what needs to happen with runeforges:


    (2H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 20 and Runic Power generation by 60%.

    (2H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 10% and heals you for 10% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

    (2H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 100% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 48% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

    (2H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 8% and grants a chance to heal you for 6%.



    (1H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 10 and Runic Power generation by 30%.

    (1H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 5% and heals you for 5% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

    (1H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 50% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 24% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

    (1H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 4% and grants a chance to heal you for 3%.


    We need 1H and 2H versions that can be perfectly balanced. That has to be taken into consideration with how each runeforge works. Spellwarding and Apocalypse don't fit the criteria and wouldn't be taken in any situation, so they can be removed. Razorice obviously would need to be removed because it can't be balanced. RotFC would need to be toned down to actually open up options in the first place.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •