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  1. #121
    Like many I share concerns with, can blizz balance 2h frost, dw frost and unholy against each other? If so then yes by all means all in for 2H frost is back. However if I recall one of the original reasons why frost went DW only is because blizz could not reasonably balance, 2h frost, dw frost and unholy. I want to believe that this time is different, that blizzard has learned from their mistakes in the past-prove it to me blizzard please, I want to believe. Otherwise we are going to get another expansion full of "well 2h frost is good for this patch, sorry DW with have to sit out" "Go DW for this raid,2h is to far behind" (and I am not even taking UH into account here.

    Yes 2h is back, that is nice, but please be able to reasonably balance DW, 2h frost and 2h Unholy.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Fun before balance. ESPECIALLY in an rpg. We would've never had the most memorable and fun moments in WoW if blizzard took an ultra conservative balanced route. We'd never have shadowmourne PvP, obliterates halving clothies, MoP havoc shadowburns, MoP alter time plays, classic PoM pyro, sword spec, etc.
    I disagree balance above everything else. If you dont care about balance you shouldnt care how the spec will perform as long you have your transmog option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    if they figure a way to actually balance it i'm all for options...but if it's like it was before where 2h or dw is better at certain points of the expansion it will be a massive failure.
    I mean would you expect ANYHING differently from blizz?

  3. #123
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    I disagree balance above everything else. If you dont care about balance you shouldnt care how the spec will perform as long you have your transmog option.
    I don't care about how it performs, but I do care about how it plays. If it doesn't play like 2h frost then that's not a balance issue it's a design issue.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    Like many I share concerns with, can blizz balance 2h frost, dw frost and unholy against each other?
    I'm not sure, but cant they balance these pretty simply by just balancing the Rune Forging? If 2h Frost does less damage than dual wielding, then they can just increase the impact of the 2h enchant. At least in theory.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I'm not sure, but cant they balance these pretty simply by just balancing the Rune Forging? If 2h Frost does less damage than dual wielding, then they can just increase the impact of the 2h enchant. At least in theory.
    Yeah that is one of the issues of 2h frost only have 1 type of runeforge vs dw frost having 2 types of rune forges, especially now with the new runes added (I do like the new options very much). I am guessing dw generates killing machine procs more often than 2h and I am sure there are other issues with balancing 2h frost and dw frost. Again I want to have faith that blizzard will do a better job this go around than before. No one is expecting perfect balance between dw frost, 2h frost and UH but it has to be better than when 2h frost was still a thing.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    Yeah that is one of the issues of 2h frost only have 1 type of runeforge vs dw frost having 2 types of rune forges, especially now with the new runes added (I do like the new options very much). I am guessing dw generates killing machine procs more often than 2h and I am sure there are other issues with balancing 2h frost and dw frost. Again I want to have faith that blizzard will do a better job this go around than before. No one is expecting perfect balance between dw frost, 2h frost and UH but it has to be better than when 2h frost was still a thing.
    But if they have a Rune which can only be used on 2hand weapons, cant they just use that one to simply balance the difference?

    Simplified example:

    1) Dual wield does 40 k dps
    2) 2hand does 35 k dps
    3) Blizz buffs the 2hand rune
    4) Now both Dual wield and 2hand do 40 k dps.

    I know that's very simplified, but I don't see why it couldn't work somewhat similar to that.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But if they have a Rune which can only be used on 2hand weapons, can't they just use that one to simply balance the difference?
    Well, there have been exclusive 1h 2h runes in the past caprice v stoneskin or razorice v cinderglacier, historically it never helped 1h v 2h tanking, for example, was always a mess.

    Historically the only times 2h frost has ever worked was when massive burst oblit pvp meme builds were leaking into pve which always resulted in the nerfhammer. Maybe the level 60 KM proc giving oblit frost damage might help but it seems to me 2h will be an rp only build.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But if they have a Rune which can only be used on 2hand weapons, cant they just use that one to simply balance the difference?

    Simplified example:

    1) Dual wield does 40 k dps
    2) 2hand does 35 k dps
    3) Blizz buffs the 2hand rune
    4) Now both Dual wield and 2hand do 40 k dps.

    I know that's very simplified, but I don't see why it couldn't work somewhat similar to that.
    Problems come with scaling. Next tier other pulls ahead again.

  9. #129
    All the damage is now based on AP and not on weapon damage. To make all autoatack from 2h = DW autoattacks and adjust procs from slower attackspeed and we are done.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Morssoe View Post
    Problems come with scaling. Next tier other pulls ahead again.
    I agree. But maybe Blizzard will do more frequent balancing in Shadowlands. It was one of the questions Sloot asked Ion during their interview. Fingers crossed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Well, there have been exclusive 1h 2h runes in the past caprice v stoneskin or razorice v cinderglacier, historically it never helped 1h v 2h tanking, for example, was always a mess.

    Historically the only times 2h frost has ever worked was when massive burst oblit pvp meme builds were leaking into pve which always resulted in the nerfhammer. Maybe the level 60 KM proc giving oblit frost damage might help but it seems to me 2h will be an rp only build.
    This is true. But hopefully it will change. Mistakes from the past shouldn't cloud the future.

  11. #131
    Most of the factors that made such a disparity between 2h and DW are no longer in play, but mainly the different priority system. Obliterate was never affected by mastery and was mitigated by armor (which all bosses have). Until Legion Killing Machine killed the value of critical strike, which meant 2h damage gained little from either crit or mastery. Haste was super valuable when resource generation was low, but once you had enough to keep the runes regenerating it fell off in value as well. Then you had AMS generating a lot of RP when used wisely, which further reduced the gear/haste threshold before you reached resource flood. That really only left weapon damage and multistrike as valuable stats for 2h, which meant it had high baseline damage was godly when the tier first opened and if you were lucky enough to get a 2h weapon upgrade early. Once gear started flowing into the raid the spec had nowhere to go but down the relative charts.

    Now add the fact that DW didn't suffer from having a really bad stat, could AOE without crushing its single target damage, could use AMS to directly fuel its primary damage dealer, had access to another runeforge, and could take advantage of higher proc rates on KM and other on-hit mechanics, it just wasn't a fair contest between the 2 subspecs.

    Now all of these except the dual runeforge (which is really easily fixed...) are no longer relevant so it should be comparatively MUCH easier to make sure there isn't a big performance difference between them.

  12. #132
    can't wait to enjoy my frost dk again

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I don't care about how it performs, but I do care about how it plays. If it doesn't play like 2h frost then that's not a balance issue it's a design issue.
    maybe youre better playing any other class that "feels" better for you to play instead.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by vilememory View Post
    ALL OF THE HYPE! LIFE HAS MEANING AGAIN! I gotta start farming up two handers again for transmog... I gotta get people to help me do the damn blood quest for Shadowmourne. Fornicate me!
    The only cool thing about shadowmourne was the awesome proc animation, which does not work with xmogs. The weapon itself is actually fairly small and easy to miss. I guess it's nice for the feels and RP factor, but doesn't really have the x-factor other weapons have.

    And I trully wish all the DKs luck with Blizz trying to balance the two specs.

  15. #135
    Would've liked for them to add frost tanking options again, but I get that would tilt the class in such an odd way that it probably wouldn't work well. Still, happy about the change.

  16. #136
    Just wanted to chime in and say I'm really excited for you guys. I am a diehard Paladin, but I feel something of an affinity for you guys.

    I thought you all should have had Frostmourne in Legion, with the Corrupted Ashbringer as a skin.

    Enjoy your 2h! I hope it is also well balanced.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    maybe youre better playing any other class that "feels" better for you to play instead.
    If you don't care what your class feels like to play then there is no reason bliz should ever take your opinions into consideration when designing the game. You're just going to keep playing whatever sims best.

    End of the day the lesson from BFA was that people who chase numbers are going to keep playing no matter how much they cry, while those who actually want their class to feel fun will walk away if they don't get that feeling. This is exactly why we're seeing so many flavor things like 2h frost coming back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  18. #138
    I am Murloc! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Right? How dare people feel excited about the prospect of having different playstyles and build options again?
    Different playstyle ? Build option ? What game are you even talking about ??? Since when does the weapon define gameplay in wow ? Gameplay will be the same and 2H suboptimal as always...

    You are litteraly digging the grave of your own disappointment.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Different playstyle ? Build option ? What game are you even talking about ??? Since when does the weapon define gameplay in wow ? Gameplay will be the same and 2H suboptimal as always...

    You are litteraly digging the grave of your own disappointment.
    2h was always built differently due to not having razorice and better damage on Obliterate instead of Frost Strike, therefor scaling better with haste instead of mastery. I mean, sure if Blizzard simply throws in the option to wield 2h without adjusting any abilities to actually work with 2h then it's going to suck but that's literally the laziest route they could take.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I mean, sure if Blizzard simply throws in the option to wield 2h without adjusting any abilities to actually work with 2h then it's going to suck but that's literally the laziest route they could take.
    So that's the most likely option then?

    Admittedly a lot of the limitations that held 2h back are gone these days, but there's hardly room in the talent trees anymore to specifically address deficiencies that are likely to arise.
    I suspect blizzard will just release them vaguely normalised and let 2h slowly wither as DW takes off again because of mastery (especially if or when BoS becomes the play).

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