2h Frost is back in Shadowlands!

[liljc711]

Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?

[Saltysquidoon]

Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?

It would go a long way towards fixing it (since fundamentally 2h not having razorice means it doesn't scale with mastery like DW) but there's also the issue of KM and RA scaling with swing speed and frost having multiple talents that are tied to swing speed.

Essentially all the 'fixes' 2h needs to be viable are small and easy enough on their own but when you add them up they outweigh the amount of work blizzard has done to entire classes this expansion so it seems unlikely they're going to put in that effort for half of frost.

[agentsi]

As an FYI.

2h Frost is in the game, but its still so out of tune its unplayable in the Alpha. You get almost no procs, and the dmg drop off is noticeable vs dual wield. But, it is in there, and its exciting to see how it will go.

[Kendros]

Watching streamers play alpha and reading comments, one problem seems to be one rune forge vs two with DW. Would being able to apply 2 runeforges to a 2H wep work and fix the issues?

And why two hander frost dks deserve having 2 weapon enchants over all other classes? Just to please the role players whinning about not able to role play like the lich king? We are not special cookies. You wanted 2 handers for the aesthetics and you got what you wanted. You have no right to ask for balance on top of that when it was pointed out multiple times all the probleems it had in the past and would have back again.

[Drakonskyr]

And why one hander frost dks deserve having 2 weapon enchants over all other classes?

I'm gonna assume that was a typo, because DW frost does use two runes instead of one. It's part of what's made it better for raiding for years, along with the faster attack speed, which means more procs. In any case, Blizzard could tune it if they wanted, and what it looks like next to other classes is irrelevant since having runeforges is essentially DK's true remaining "hero class perk" since Legion, when everyone else got a class hall and a class mount, and the leveling advantage is about to become irrelevant in Shadowlands. The more relevant question is why 2h Frost should have double runeforges against Unholy and Blood.

But in any case, double runeforges wouldn't really fix the problem by itself. To make 2h Frost there needs to be modifier attached to wielding a 2h weapon that changes the way procs work to account for the slower attack speed, and probably a damage modifier as well. Basically an actual functioning Might of the Frozen Wastes--I say functioning because Blizzard could never tune this properly before. Without that, it would probably be easier for Blizzard to just throw the towel and give Frost the ability to xmog 1h into 2h, artifact style. Just make it a pure cosmetic thing and be done with it.

[Saltysquidoon]

What shits me is Frost on the whole needs a proper legion tier overhaul.

Instead, we get crutched harder on BoS and a lazy half-cooked unbalanced 2h option. Then we're stuck here thinking of ways to claw 2h back to zero instead of ways to actually improve the spec.

[Saltysquidoon]

Alternatively, you could just tie the two combat styles to different talent combinations and try to balance them against each other. E.g. makes more sense for DW to be BoS and 2H Obliteration

KM oblits deal frost damage now so we're still back to the razorice issue.



I'm just going to say it (even though it's going to be massively unpopular here) 2h is too much work to balance and resultantly bad for the spec. Frost is simply not designed around 2h anymore and if they wanted to appease people who don't care about balance it should have just been a transmog option.
Losing a runeforge
This is the biggest issue (always has), razorice means more scaling with mastery and the more abilities that deal frost damage the stronger mastery (thus razorice, thus dw) becomes. There is also the possibility a dedicated BoS build with hysteria will become the default option.
Just let 2h use two runeforges
Sure it's an easy fix but it's work, work that's now going into a weapon option instead of the spec

KM and RA proc rate
They're tied to swing speed. 2h means less, slower swings which means less KM procs and slower gameplay. Go and watch some 2h alpha footage it's like its being played back at half speed.
Just change the ppm or give 2h a special passive
Slightly harder fix and now we're into differential balancing and we're starting to circle the drain of pre legion problems.

Talents like IT, FP and RA scale better with swing speed
Speaks for itself. More, faster swings are better for these talents.
Just remake the talents or add new talents for 2h!
Now we're getting into the realm of significant work and the true issue here. If we start splitting and rebalancing talents for dw and 2h 1. We're back to the balance headache they wanted to get rid of in the first place and 2. If we have dedicated talents for 2h and dw that means both 2h and dw have fewer options nd thus each option is individually worse.

Ignoring the talent problem, even if blizzard just implemented the 'easy fixes' they would be putting more work into a weapon option for half of a single spec then they've put in for some classes this expansion.

[Clash the DK]

KM oblits deal frost damage now so we're still back to the razorice issue.



I'm just going to say it (even though it's going to be massively unpopular here) 2h is too much work to balance and resultantly bad for the spec. Frost is simply not designed around 2h anymore and if they wanted to appease people who don't care about balance it should have just been a transmog option.
Losing a runeforge
This is the biggest issue (always has), razorice means more scaling with mastery and the more abilities that deal frost damage the stronger mastery (thus razorice, thus dw) becomes. There is also the possibility a dedicated BoS build with hysteria will become the default option.
Just let 2h use two runeforges
Sure it's an easy fix but it's work, work that's now going into a weapon option instead of the spec

KM and RA proc rate
They're tied to swing speed. 2h means less, slower swings which means less KM procs and slower gameplay. Go and watch some 2h alpha footage it's like its being played back at half speed.
Just change the ppm or give 2h a special passive
Slightly harder fix and now we're into differential balancing and we're starting to circle the drain of pre legion problems.

Talents like IT, FP and RA scale better with swing speed
Speaks for itself. More, faster swings are better for these talents.
Just remake the talents or add new talents for 2h!
Now we're getting into the realm of significant work and the true issue here. If we start splitting and rebalancing talents for dw and 2h 1. We're back to the balance headache they wanted to get rid of in the first place and 2. If we have dedicated talents for 2h and dw that means both 2h and dw have fewer options nd thus each option is individually worse.

Ignoring the talent problem, even if blizzard just implemented the 'easy fixes' they would be putting more work into a weapon option for half of a single spec then they've put in for some classes this expansion.

Frost needs to be reworked and has for a very long time. Much of the underlying design traces back to WotLK. Bringing back 2H Frost is a perfect excuse to fix all those underlying problems.

All mechanics and talents related to weapon speed needs to be removed. That includes Killing Machine which is a pointless passive mechanic anyway. It may sound like a lot of work, but it's easily doable with the right vision for the spec. The absolute last thing they need to do is start individualizing talents or runeforges to prop up different weapon types. That's going down a road that leads to a situation that can't be balanced just like pre-Legion. No, they need to focus on a design that incorporates 2H and DW Frost from every angle.

For example, here is what needs to happen with runeforges:


(2H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 20 and Runic Power generation by 60%.

(2H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 10% and heals you for 10% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

(2H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 100% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 48% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

(2H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 8% and grants a chance to heal you for 6%.



(1H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 10 and Runic Power generation by 30%.

(1H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 5% and heals you for 5% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

(1H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 50% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 24% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

(1H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 4% and grants a chance to heal you for 3%.


We need 1H and 2H versions that can be perfectly balanced. That has to be taken into consideration with how each runeforge works. Spellwarding and Apocalypse don't fit the criteria and wouldn't be taken in any situation, so they can be removed. Razorice obviously would need to be removed because it can't be balanced. RotFC would need to be toned down to actually open up options in the first place.

[Kendros]

I'm gonna assume that was a typo, because DW frost does use two runes instead of one. It's part of what's made it better for raiding for years, along with the faster attack speed, which means more procs. In any case, Blizzard could tune it if they wanted, and what it looks like next to other classes is irrelevant since having runeforges is essentially DK's true remaining "hero class perk" since Legion, when everyone else got a class hall and a class mount, and the leveling advantage is about to become irrelevant in Shadowlands. The more relevant question is why 2h Frost should have double runeforges against Unholy and Blood.

But in any case, double runeforges wouldn't really fix the problem by itself. To make 2h Frost there needs to be modifier attached to wielding a 2h weapon that changes the way procs work to account for the slower attack speed, and probably a damage modifier as well. Basically an actual functioning Might of the Frozen Wastes--I say functioning because Blizzard could never tune this properly before. Without that, it would probably be easier for Blizzard to just throw the towel and give Frost the ability to xmog 1h into 2h, artifact style. Just make it a pure cosmetic thing and be done with it.

Dont be obtuse dude i obviously meant 2 enchants on the same weapon. And no its not irrelevant what other classes have, its a weapon enchant like any other except its themed runes for flavor, and exclusive to dks also for flavor. They have roughly the same power of all other weapon enchants. Being a hero class doesnt mean shit except that you start at higher level, they dont get to be more powerful or better.
And again why would 2 hander frost dks deserve to hit harder, over all other 2 hander classes? Just so you get the big oblit crist you want even tho its has been pointed out many times that the weapon wont change how hard an ability hits? Again Frost dk is not a special cookie.

- - - Updated - - -

KM oblits deal frost damage now so we're still back to the razorice issue.



I'm just going to say it (even though it's going to be massively unpopular here) 2h is too much work to balance and resultantly bad for the spec. Frost is simply not designed around 2h anymore and if they wanted to appease people who don't care about balance it should have just been a transmog option.
Losing a runeforge
This is the biggest issue (always has), razorice means more scaling with mastery and the more abilities that deal frost damage the stronger mastery (thus razorice, thus dw) becomes. There is also the possibility a dedicated BoS build with hysteria will become the default option.
Just let 2h use two runeforges
Sure it's an easy fix but it's work, work that's now going into a weapon option instead of the spec

KM and RA proc rate
They're tied to swing speed. 2h means less, slower swings which means less KM procs and slower gameplay. Go and watch some 2h alpha footage it's like its being played back at half speed.
Just change the ppm or give 2h a special passive
Slightly harder fix and now we're into differential balancing and we're starting to circle the drain of pre legion problems.

Talents like IT, FP and RA scale better with swing speed
Speaks for itself. More, faster swings are better for these talents.
Just remake the talents or add new talents for 2h!
Now we're getting into the realm of significant work and the true issue here. If we start splitting and rebalancing talents for dw and 2h 1. We're back to the balance headache they wanted to get rid of in the first place and 2. If we have dedicated talents for 2h and dw that means both 2h and dw have fewer options nd thus each option is individually worse.

Ignoring the talent problem, even if blizzard just implemented the 'easy fixes' they would be putting more work into a weapon option for half of a single spec then they've put in for some classes this expansion.

This has been said over and over and over but ppl choose to ignore it over "BUT MAH LICH KUNG ROLE PLAY!!!! I WANNA BE THE LICH KUNG. I JUST WANT THE AETHETHICS OF IT, I DONT CARE ABOUT BALANCE."

- - - Updated - - -

Frost needs to be reworked and has for a very long time. Much of the underlying design traces back to WotLK. Bringing back 2H Frost is a perfect excuse to fix all those underlying problems.

All mechanics and talents related to weapon speed needs to be removed. That includes Killing Machine which is a pointless passive mechanic anyway. It may sound like a lot of work, but it's easily doable with the right vision for the spec. The absolute last thing they need to do is start individualizing talents or runeforges to prop up different weapon types. That's going down a road that leads to a situation that can't be balanced just like pre-Legion. No, they need to focus on a design that incorporates 2H and DW Frost from every angle.

For example, here is what needs to happen with runeforges:


(2H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 20 and Runic Power generation by 60%.

(2H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 10% and heals you for 10% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

(2H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 100% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 48% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

(2H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 8% and grants a chance to heal you for 6%.



(1H) Rune of Hysteria --- Increases maximum Runic Power by 10 and Runic Power generation by 30%.

(1H) Rune of Unending Thirst --- Increases Haste and movement speed by 5% and heals you for 5% of your maximum health when you kill an enemy.

(1H) Rune of Sanguination --- Increases Death Strike damage by 50% and when you fall below 35% health, you heal for 24% of your maximum health over 8 sec.

(1H) Rune of the Fallen Crusader --- Increases total Strength by 4% and grants a chance to heal you for 3%.


We need 1H and 2H versions that can be perfectly balanced. That has to be taken into consideration with how each runeforge works. Spellwarding and Apocalypse don't fit the criteria and wouldn't be taken in any situation, so they can be removed. Razorice obviously would need to be removed because it can't be balanced. RotFC would need to be toned down to actually open up options in the first place.

It has been reworked. In Legion. One xpac ago. just because you didnt like how it turned out doesnt mean it never hapenned.
Also all ideas sounds good on paper but it will never be able to perfectly balance both.

[Clash the DK]

It has been reworked. In Legion. One xpac ago. just because you didnt like how it turned out doesnt mean it never hapenned.
Also all ideas sounds good on paper but it will never be able to perfectly balance both.

The rework for Legion further strengthened the dual-wield nature of Frost as we were being forced into 1H gameplay exclusively with the Artifact. Now, they want to bring back 2H Frost. And that will take some changes to support that concept.

My recollection is that 2H and DW Monk was balanced within 1% pre-Legion. It can be done if the complete design of the spec/class backs up the intention.

[Saltysquidoon]

The rework for Legion further strengthened the dual-wield nature of Frost as we were being forced into 1H gameplay exclusively with the Artifact. Now, they want to bring back 2H Frost. And that will take some changes to support that concept.

My recollection is that 2H and DW Monk was balanced within 1% pre-Legion. It can be done if the complete design of the spec/class backs up the intention.

My issue with the whole thing is frost needs massive foundational work. Given its obvious no spec is getting massive work this expansion and rather is getting limited dev time. With Frost is getting 2h back I'm worried any dev time that would go into the quixotic quest to try and make 2h viable is dev time that's not going into making the whole spec better.

Right now it's looking like they're just going to let BoS become frost's "spec mechanic" in all circumstances and all content (given the new talent and rune forge) as opposed to actually make a complete spec and make BoS and AoE talent and 2h will be left DoA anyway.

[Clash the DK]

My issue with the whole thing is frost needs massive foundational work. Given its obvious no spec is getting massive work this expansion and rather is getting limited dev time. With Frost is getting 2h back I'm worried any dev time that would go into the quixotic quest to try and make 2h viable is dev time that's not going into making the whole spec better.

Right now it's looking like they're just going to let BoS become frost's "spec mechanic" in all circumstances and all content (given the new talent and rune forge) as opposed to actually make a complete spec and make BoS and AoE talent and 2h will be left DoA anyway.

Luckily, some of our worst talents are the ones that benefit dual-wield the most. They need to be replaced anyway.
The whole resource generation row of talents needs to go. They don't really add anything.
Frozen Pulse could be re-wired to trigger from Runic Power spenders.

Outside of talents, even if they just remove Killing Machine and get the rework of runeforges right, it wouldn't be too much work.
But, we will see how far they are willing to go.

[Saltysquidoon]

Luckily, some of our worst talents are the ones that benefit dual-wield the most. They need to be replaced anyway.
The whole resource generation row of talents needs to go. They don't really add anything.
Frozen Pulse could be re-wired to trigger from Runic Power spenders.

Outside of talents, even if they just remove Killing Machine and get the rework of runeforges right, it wouldn't be too much work.
But, we will see how far they are willing to go.

This is the problem though, even if they just did what you described that 'not to much work' is more work then most specs are getting period and none of it helps the spec play better, it just helps 2h maybe not be shit.

That's my point, work going into making 2h not shit is mostly not going to be work to go into making frost better.

[Clash the DK]

This is the problem though, even if they just did what you described that 'not to much work' is more work then most specs are getting period and none of it helps the spec play better, it just helps 2h maybe not be shit.

That's my point, work going into making 2h not shit is mostly not going to be work to go into making frost better.

I understand what you are saying. But I believe they can kill two birds with one stone. Yet to be determined though.

Also, they completely changed resources for Shaman and Paladin. So some big changes are happening.
And it is still early into the Beta. Which means we need to plead our case right now before it's too late.

[Saltysquidoon]

I understand what you are saying. But I believe they can kill two birds with one stone. Yet to be determined though.

Also, they completely changed resources for Shaman and Paladin. So some big changes are happening.
And it is still early into the Beta. Which means we need to plead our case right now before it's too late.

I get what you're saying too and I hope you're right.

Personally I'm way beyond trusting blizzard with respect to "it's only alpha, its only beta", especially after how dirty they did frost DK's in the legion alpha and how they did everyone in the bfa alpha.
Also, they didn't completely change shamans (or pallies) they simply reverted them back to an old preexisting system, I'm not a programmer but we aren't talking about a massive amount of work to essentially 'unprune' a resource. Don't believe their PR lies.

[LCDArcade]

I think everyone is forgetting that absolutely no real tuning or balancing is done this early on into expansion alpha/beta. It' usually done the last month or two before an expansion launches so yeah it makes sense a spec that has been dead for two expansions is crap right now in the alpha haha.

[Saltysquidoon]

I cannot understand how after six (6) well-documented alpha/beta phases for wow expansions, how anyone would still have enough faith in blizzard to unironically post "it's only alpha/beta/they'll patch it".
Unless people kick up a shitstorm blizzard never changes anything of their own accord, look at the balance shitstorm and response.

[Kendros]

2h Frost is going to be bottom all all expac - I can't wait to kick DK's from my group if they aren't UH or DWing

Same dude. Hope the "YAY WE DID IT 2H BACK!!!" was worth it. But again all they wanted was the aesthetics wasnt it?

- - - Updated - - -

I understand what you are saying. But I believe they can kill two birds with one stone. Yet to be determined though.

Also, they completely changed resources for Shaman and Paladin. So some big changes are happening.
And it is still early into the Beta. Which means we need to plead our case right now before it's too late.

11 years of 2hand and dw frost being a thing says otherwise tho. Its just repeating the same crap all over again beacause some ppl cant let it go.

[Bisque]

I cannot understand how after six (6) well-documented alpha/beta phases for wow expansions, how anyone would still have enough faith in blizzard to unironically post "it's only alpha/beta/they'll patch it".
Unless people kick up a shitstorm blizzard never changes anything of their own accord, look at the balance shitstorm and response.

Honestly at this point, either blind faith or naivete. It was not to long ago when a good deal of the official dk forums was littered with "We want 2H frost back", the myriad of other issues facing frost- nah screw that I want to look like Arthas. Ok lets say blizz brings 2h frost back, how are they going to balance it against dw and uh- "Nah screw that I want to look like Arthas" so I mean here we are we can look like Arthas again... As others have said earlier my fear is blizz after bringing 2h frost back will do nothing else for frost before Shadowlands launches because "we have done enough" or it is to hard/ time consuming to balance 2h frost and dw frost. I want to, I really want to believe that Blizz will do a better job managing 2h frost and DW, that being said a great deal of skepticism is definitely valid. The whole "don't worry it's only alpha/beta" is a line that people will repeatedly parrot to defend blizz's mishaps. I am hoping that is not the case this time, I am hoping blizz can balance 2h and dw frost- we will see.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think everyone is forgetting that absolutely no real tuning or balancing is done this early on into expansion alpha/beta. It' usually done the last month or two before an expansion launches so yeah it makes sense a spec that has been dead for two expansions is crap right now in the alpha haha.

This is less about balancing/tuning and more about fundamental flaws in the way the game behaves.