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  1. #341
    Stop whining pls. We dont need range survival.

    MM is fun in alpha so far, BM is the usual and SV is a choice I dont want to miss if I wanna go melee. SV has been one of the specs
    which I had the most fun with in BFA and it is a blast in PVP. WAY more fun than ranged SV ever was.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    Just gonna copy-paste my previous reply to Saltysquidoon here.



    If it in their minds was such a problem back prior to Legion then...why didn't they do the above?

    I mean...they did it with all other specs going into Legion. Why not SV?
    Obviously I can’t answer that. I can only speculate. For an actual answer you would have to get that straight from Blizzard if you ever could.
    Speculating, maybe Blizzard felt they didn’t want another dot spec for some reason. We have 3 at this point and they are already pretty close to playstyle and I’m sure separating them is difficult enough for Blizzards mentality about spec difference. Maybe they are creatively bankrupt for another rdps spec.
    Before you use that with “but how could they do a melee spec when they already have X amount?” Most melee classes play differently. Yeah, they have builders and spenders (rogue and Feral) as well as Rage and Chaos (warrior and DH), and those are also really close; however, not all of them match up to all the others. Warrior and DH might play close to each other, but they don’t play close to a Rogue or Feral, or even Paladin.
    Maybe Blizz is able to make concessions that not every single spec will be completely different than others but try to limit how many.
    As stated, all I can do is speculate.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Of course I knew what he meant, but he structured his sentence wrong and then he was unreasonably aggressive and insulting so why not mess with him? I still don't see what any of this has to do with your previous statement "try thinking for yourself"?
    so you admit you were trolling and know what I meant, so there is no reason I should not have been aggressive or insulting.

    and I structured it assuming anyone that has followed this topic would know what Ion said about why he created the melee spec , (and you just admitted you did, so you were just being an ass)
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2020-04-26 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #344
    Stood in the Fire Vorality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Why is it every time I provide a source that the prevailing sentiment at the time was that hunter specs were too samey the counter-argument is always "You're wrong. Source? I said you're wrong".
    Don't believe blizzard? Here's Preach noted WoW content creator, Mythic raider and ex-world first player staying he feels they play exactly the same at 8:00. But hey he's not a hunter player so I'm sure he's commentary is wrong, maybe only your subjective opinion is right.
    I really don't understand you. You're saying my counter argument is not valid because "I said you're wrong", which in no way did I only say "You are wrong" and that's all. Your source of 'prevailing sentiment' was straight from Blizzard - someone who has been wrong on so many occasions - even after community feedback. I addressed this in my reply to you, yet you ignore it. I'm simply highlighting the fact that Blizzard has been wrong many times in the past, why can't they be wrong with their thoughts on Hunters? Then I backed it up by stating their changes going into Shadowlands - giving back baseline abilities across all specs...which completely contradicts their reasoning of changing Hunters in the first place - because "they felt the same".

    Then to top it off, you practically mock my "subjective opinion" but then you link Preach, who is also giving their subjective opinion on the Hunter class... to back yourself up? It's baffling. Also, you've said that he feels exactly the same at 8 minutes in that video, but that's not what he said at all. He said the talents played the same for each spec - which they did, and that was definitely a problem. However, the specs at their core were fine and each had their own flavor. I can agree that the Hunter specs at the time could've use a talent overhaul, but not a complete destruction of the survival/mm specs. I even said in the first place that my statement was, of course, my opinion. However, I did back up my opinion with facts.

    Facts are : Blizzard has been wrong many times. Most Hunters in the WoW community dislike melee hunter and much prefer the MoP/WoD iterations of Hunter...other than the current BM spec (this can be found through multiple threads). Blizzard is giving back class-wide baseline abilities in Shadowlands - contradicting a main point in your argument that Hunter specs felt the same.

  5. #345
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    so you admit you were trolling and know what I meant, so there is no reason I should not have been aggressive or insulting.

    and I structured it assuming anyone that has followed this topic would know what Ion said about why he created the melee spec , (and you just admitted you did, so you were just being an ass)
    You structured it wrong. Why is that so hard for you to admit sheesh lol

    I daresay the poster who insists on name calling and insulting mindlessly is the ass I'll let those who read our posts be the judge of that though.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You structured it wrong. Why is that so hard for you to admit sheesh lol

    I daresay the poster who insists on name calling and insulting mindlessly is the ass I'll let those who read our posts be the judge of that though.
    No I just took for granted anyone that has been here know about the comments he said about making it melee, that's why I put his own words, I figured anyone with a working brain cell would know that, and somehow you still got it congrats.

    You already admitted you knew what I was saying and was still a dick about it.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2020-04-26 at 10:32 PM.

  7. #347
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    No I just took for granted anyone that has been here know about the comments he said about making it melee, that's why I put his own words, I figured anyone with a working brain cell would know that, and somehow you still got it congrats.

    You already admitted you knew what I was saying and was still a dick about it.
    I don't even know what to say to this hot garbage. I had a whole post typed out, but on 2nd thought I would rather not derail this thread any further by trading quotes with a poster of your quality (or lack there of). I'll not reply to you any further so go ahead and quote this and insult me some more so you get the last word in and feel better about yourself champ.

    OT: The only reason I am even at these forums is because I am debating hard on swapping mains to hunter for shadowlands, and you know why I might do just that? Because I've always played a melee character, but hunter (super mobile ranged) has me interested greatly, so the fact that it has a melee spec (that I very much enjoy playing mind you) helps me tremendously in case I end up not liking being ranged too much so I don't have to just reroll.

    So happy hunters have a melee spec to change it up a bit.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I don't even know what to say to this hot garbage. I had a whole post typed out, but on 2nd thought I would rather not derail this thread any further by trading quotes with a poster of your quality (or lack there of). I'll not reply to you any further so go ahead and quote this and insult me some more so you get the last word in and feel better about yourself champ.

    OT: The only reason I am even at these forums is because I am debating hard on swapping mains to hunter for shadowlands, and you know why I might do just that? Because I've always played a melee character, but hunter (super mobile ranged) has me interested greatly, so the fact that it has a melee spec (that I very much enjoy playing mind you) helps me tremendously in case I end up not liking being ranged too much so I don't have to just reroll.

    So happy hunters have a melee spec to change it up a bit.
    right and not being a smart ass off the bat with your
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Or hunter since it's also melee, ya know
    in a thread of people upset they are not getting their spec back in any form.
    when I was responding to someone that saying if I wanted to play a dot class I should play a lock (why I made the DK comment, to make a point it's not the same) so it's your own dam fault for being the ass first, so quit playing the victim.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2020-04-26 at 10:59 PM. Reason: your fixed

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    I really don't understand you. You're saying my counter-argument is not valid because "I said you're wrong", which in no way did I only say "You are wrong" and that's all.
    That comment wasn't directed solely at you, I understand if you haven't read the context of all the posts in the last few pages it might be confusing (in which case my bad) it was more a response to four people just saying 'nuh ah they weren't similar' without showing any evidence for how they weren't (because they simply mechanically were).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    Your source of 'prevailing sentiment' was straight from Blizzard - someone who has been wrong on so many occasions - even after community feedback. I addressed this in my reply to you, yet you ignore it. I'm simply highlighting the fact that Blizzard has been wrong many times in the past, why can't they be wrong with their thoughts on Hunters?
    Ok, blizzards been wrong in the past? Do you have any examples of them not diversifying the specs in 6.0? Like irrespective of how you feel, if the 6.0 changes made the gameplay between the specs more diverse it is axiomatic they must have been more similar in mop yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    Then I backed it up by stating their changes going into Shadowlands - giving back baseline abilities across all specs...which completely contradicts their reasoning of changing Hunters in the first place - because "they felt the same".
    See this is the problem with arguing on the internet, we like to pretend its a zero-sum game when it isn't. Yes, all the specs will be using mark and kill shot, so what? How does that help your argument that the specs in mop weren't overly similar? If you compare the BFA specs to each other (including mark and kill shot) and the mop specs to each other it's still night and day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    Also, you've said that he feels exactly the same at 8 minutes in that video, but that's not what he said at all. He said the talents played the same for each spec - which they did, and that was definitely a problem. However, the specs at their core were fine and each had their own flavor.
    Mate, at best that's bad media comprehension, at worst you're being intentionally disingenuous. In the excerpt I was using as an example (between ~8:02 and 10:33) no one can honestly say he's talking exclusively about talents because; 1. That makes no sense, as we all know in mop every spec had the same talent trees and 2. He literally talks about how other classes have specs that play differently and every hunter spec has essentially two unique buttons; The blindly use on cd button (KM, BA, SS) and the 'it interacts with a proc button' (EA, FF, AS) the filler that goes around all of them is entirely the same.
    (And yes before you inevitably bring it up, he says BA is the same as CA, When we all know Chimera shot is actually just Cobra shot)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    Facts are : Blizzard has been wrong many times. Most Hunters in the WoW community dislike melee hunter and much prefer the MoP/WoD iterations of Hunter...other than the current BM spec (this can be found through multiple threads). Blizzard is giving back class-wide baseline abilities in Shadowlands - contradicting a main point in your argument that Hunter specs felt the same.
    Yes they have been, Im sure they do, I've never mentioned R v M survival (I don't like the legion survival either, not because its melee but because its a hodgepodge of competing ideas) and as for class-wide abilities I'm sure mark and kill shot are going to homogenise BM and MM back to mop levels.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Easyclassictopkeklel View Post
    Stop whining pls. We dont need range survival.

    MM is fun in alpha so far, BM is the usual and SV is a choice I dont want to miss if I wanna go melee. SV has been one of the specs
    which I had the most fun with in BFA and it is a blast in PVP. WAY more fun than ranged SV ever was.
    Correction:
    You don't need ranged SV.
    You don't think that it was ever fun/as fun as current SV.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Obviously I can’t answer that. I can only speculate. For an actual answer you would have to get that straight from Blizzard if you ever could.
    Speculating, maybe Blizzard felt they didn’t want another dot spec for some reason. We have 3 at this point and they are already pretty close to playstyle and I’m sure separating them is difficult enough for Blizzards mentality about spec difference. Maybe they are creatively bankrupt for another rdps spec.
    Before you use that with “but how could they do a melee spec when they already have X amount?” Most melee classes play differently. Yeah, they have builders and spenders (rogue and Feral) as well as Rage and Chaos (warrior and DH), and those are also really close; however, not all of them match up to all the others. Warrior and DH might play close to each other, but they don’t play close to a Rogue or Feral, or even Paladin.
    Maybe Blizz is able to make concessions that not every single spec will be completely different than others but try to limit how many.
    As stated, all I can do is speculate.
    Speculation is what it is. And whether the devs are still capable of coming up with new and "inovative" ways to design classes, I can't really say.
    I'd like to think so...

    As for a DoT-style design which is different from that of other classes, one thing to keep in mind is that other classes focusing on this are almost all of them, casters/magical. This tends to put a certain...stamp or...signature on how abilities are designed. One that would/could be different with a spec that isn't designed around magic.

    We ofc have feral druids but, yeah, they have their combo-system so, it's pretty safe to say that you could make a spec that is different from feral.

    As for specifics for that new hunter spec. All I can do here is provide suggestions of my own. Those can be found in my signature below btw...

    If you ask me, such a design would be different from all other hunter specs, and from other DoT-inspired ones as well. For several reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    (And yes before you inevitably bring it up, he says BA is the same as CA, When we all know Chimera shot is actually just Cobra shot)
    I would argue, due to intended mechanics/functionality at the time, that Steady Shot was the MM equivalent to Cobra Shot.

    Both were designed as Focus-generators; that being the primary focus for the two.

    Cobra Shot today is a spender/filler. But it wasn't back then.

  11. #351
    i think this spec's time is up tbh. people "claim" it's a good spec and they play it, yet that's not the case in game. it's only relevant in pvp because the other 2 specs are complete shit. experiment failed blizz just needs to revert and stop beating a dead horse.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    i think this spec's time is up tbh. people "claim" it's a good spec and they play it, yet that's not the case in game. it's only relevant in pvp because the other 2 specs are complete shit. experiment failed blizz just needs to revert and stop beating a dead horse.
    Should revert MM too then to Legion iteration(which was awesome) since barely anyone plays BfA Marksman. And just delete Subtlety Rogue since even less play that. There will always be a spec whos on the bottom. If anything RSV was up since it was the same thing for so many years.

    Anyone can "claim" a spec is awesome if that's what they think. As there are thousands and tens of thousands of players playing Survival at any given time that's fine enough.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Let loot be loot.

  13. #353
    Everyone clamoring for ranged survival back is just mad they can't have their zero skill ranged spec with ZERO movement restrictions or downsides. It was rightfully nerfed to trash in Hellfire Citadel before it was removed in Legion (though funnily enough they instead made MM the braindead instant spec for HFC thanks to the 4pc bonus lol).

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    In the end one spec will always be on the bottom. The issue with Survival is the hunters that simply refuse to even try it because it's melee. If you changed mongoose bite with steady shot more people would play Survival now than Marksman if we are to believe you and others in this thread. But then we have this fact, there are more players playing Survival now compared to Hellfire Citadel in WoD when it was ranged. Maybe Survival just played like shit.

    And btw, Survival fits the Hunter Class fantasy perfectly. It's a copy of Rexxar, probably the most famous Hunter in the game.
    They don't try it because all other melee classes are better and there is no raid spot for another melee, especially when your class can be
    ranged.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    They don't try it because all other melee classes are better and there is no raid spot for another melee, especially when your class can be
    ranged.
    You get one or the other, not both of try one excuses. It’s either not played due to damage or because it’s melee in a rdps option class. For the last part, this makes no sense or people would say the same thing for Feral.
    More likely, it’s less played due to damage issues, being shown to be convoluted as a spec, and the stigma of having been previously rdps.
    All this makes me wonder how popular it would become of it suddenly became the highest dps spec in the game while maintains a more streamlined playstyle.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    (And yes before you inevitably bring it up, he says BA is the same as CA, When we all know Chimera shot is actually just Cobra shot)
    ...no... it wasn't. Cobra Shot was Survival's and BM's equivalent of Steady Shot. The ability that closest fit Chimera Shot in SV was Explosive Shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    There will always be a spec whos on the bottom. If anything RSV was up since it was the same thing for so many years.
    No, it wasn't. Stop being such a terrible liar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apanonar View Post
    Everyone clamoring for ranged survival back is just mad they can't have their zero skill ranged spec with ZERO movement restrictions or downsides.
    We still have BM, you know, which is a simple ranged spec with no movement restrictions. Trying to pretend that's the reason SV was removed doesn't work.

    Plus, if movement restrictions/skill caps were the problem they could have simply added a new mechanic in SV for complexity (e.g. a multidotting incentive) which would have been a fraction of the effort of replacing the spec with a new melee spec. This is the problem with all the arguments about ranged SV being flawed and that justifying melee SV; making melee SV was the highest risk, highest effort, and lowest reward "solution" they could have gone for. Just improving the ranged spec would have been easier and more effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apanonar View Post
    It was rightfully nerfed to trash in Hellfire Citadel before it was removed in Legion (though funnily enough they instead made MM the braindead instant spec for HFC thanks to the 4pc bonus lol).
    Imagine saying shit like this without knowing that Aimed Shot was a mobile cast in WoD even before the tier 18 set bonus.

  17. #357
    Mechagnome sunxsera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apanonar View Post
    Everyone clamoring for ranged survival back is just mad they can't have their zero skill ranged spec with ZERO movement restrictions or downsides. It was rightfully nerfed to trash in Hellfire Citadel before it was removed in Legion (though funnily enough they instead made MM the braindead instant spec for HFC thanks to the 4pc bonus lol).
    Why do you think no movement restriction = braindead ... ?
    It´s the easiest thing to just stand still & time a cast ... maybe for you and some lfr / normal raiders it´s kinda hard.
    Current SV doesnt have any movement restriction, too - so it´s also braindead by your logic.

    You want to know what braindead is? Fire Mages standing still and spam-casting greater pyro / sheep in arena.

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