Thread: I was wrong

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  1. #21
    Warchief Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Where does Sub fit in? Where COULD Sub fit in, that isn't just one of the same two?
    Evasion tank of course. Maybe evasion+parry. Like in Final Fantasy XI when ninja was intended to be a DPS but players found an effective way to utilize them as tanks.

  2. #22
    How do you think players who love Subtlety's burst+control playstyle in PvP would feel about their spec being redesigned as an evasion tank? Have you thought that through?
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    How do you think players who love Subtlety's burst+control playstyle in PvP would feel about their spec being redesigned as an evasion tank? Have you thought that through?
    I mean, probably just like the players that liked ranged Survival or pre DH Demonology Warlock and their spec got changed to something different/new. Not saying it's a good thing, but it's not unprecedented. I would rather Outlaw get sacrificed if an evasion tank were to be created, but I'm not married to Subtlety the way it is/has been either.

  4. #24
    "i quit" threads are forbidden, but this one has actually sprouted a nice discussion, hence i won't be closing it. Keep it nice.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  5. #25
    This was never an "i quit" thread, I'm not going anywhere, I'm already not playing BFA, I'm just going to be playing classic only and not the new expansion unless better changes happen. /eyeroll

    I can't even admit my predictions were wrong without getting infracted on this forum
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  6. #26
    There was a lot more needed to be done than just adding abilities back for sub to not be whatever pve designed atrocious state it's currently in. Spec design is the major glaring issue, ever since they designed every spec to be a consistent bloated pve rotation they completely destroyed actual setup specs in PvP. Sub used to be interesting because the skill cap was designed around managing combo points and finishers ( maintain snd/rupture and recup).

    The game doesn't work that way anymore, you spam damage for 5 minutes rotating through CDs or mana bars until you win or lose. This gameplay design was made to help entry level and generally bad players (mostly dh players) break 1800 without getting outplayed.

    Sub is a victim of the new legionized era of Wow that continued into bfa and probably shadowlands. The multiple charges of dance are literal proof of them attempting to push this spec into a more consistent pve rotation rather than 1 minute burst windows.

    Until they make complete overhauls, we are shit out of luck. Ive played sub since classic, I've played above 2800 multiple expansions and I cant even stomach logging onto my rogue anymore. I suggest playing another class and finding a new main and adapting to this version of the gamr until this company stops catering to this crowd of players that want the game to make them think theyre good rather than actually learning to be good.

    Im very worn out and cynical waiting for this game to improve (arena/class design) so sorry if i offended anyone

  7. #27
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i mean you say that, but it sounds like you looked at one class then assumed they all are like this, warlocks, dks, warriors, many others are all super excited sabout the changes, its insane how much we are getting back, affi locks look fun again! i know my affi lock raid member is super hyped.
    Amen, I'm hyped as HELL for some of the class updates. Lock, warrior, DK, and several others. Hopefully rogues get some love over the course of alpha/beta, it sounds like they're open to further changes.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  8. #28
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    First of all, pure DPS with 3 specs is just shit in general, I don't get why they didn't just get rid of it in the first place but oh well.

    Second, as long as it's mechanically the same in each spec, Rogue will just feel like a flavor variation that's closer to a reskin than a new model if you allow that metaphor. Whoopee, so Sub deals shadow damage, Ass deals poison damage, and Outlaw crits higher. What amazing variety. There just isn't a whole lot to do with the same builder + finisher combo point system being at the core of each of the three specs. It'll come down to numbers again, like it always has.

    Want to make Sub a more-played spec? Turn the knob until its mathematically the best damage. But that doesn't solve anything, does it.

    The problem is simply this: what is Sub's niche? Assa has been about single-target damage, Outlaw about cleave. Both are THE two most useful specializations in terms of PvE content, between raids, M+, and open world. Where does Sub fit in? Where COULD Sub fit in, that isn't just one of the same two?
    Sub should be pvp like it alway was with niche use in pve. Blizzards pve redesign in legion (making everything pve viable aka braindead with samey rotations) ruined the spec as now its unenjoyable in both game modes, can you say well done? Lul. Don't fix what isn't fucking broken.. players found ways to make sub work in pve many times anyway, it was fun pveing with in Cata, but much harder. It was easily the most rewarding spec in the game when played well, it just felt great.

    If sub was to be saved they need to stop with this cancerous charge system on SD and give them back sustain on backstab actually hitting harder than an autoattack. Do they really think that is good design , by the way? Builders that hit weaker than auto attacks? Its like this on ret and sub, I haven't bothered to check other specs, all I know is it felt and looks absolutely awful AND makes no sense. BS should have the directional requirement again and massive dmg+crit boost to compensate like it used to be, then just give hemmorage back at backstabs current pitiful as fuck damage so you have an option to build CP facing targets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Interesting, I think it's fine. Not having Gouge isn't a big deal, we already have tons of control, it's no surprise they don't want the class to have more especially given the added focus on M+. And Slice and Dice was a terrible mechanic, a button you literally use every time it's about to run out with no thought or decision making to be had, how is that fun exactly?
    Ret has the same 'slice and dice' talent and its too good not to use. More haste and damage. yeah its boring, but it also makes ret tolerable at lower haste % without creeping into FF14 levels of slow-as-fuck combat, which translates to more 'fun'. Still, I'd much rather have that haste/dmg built in and be able to use the more fun ones. SnD has been dead since legion because Blizz wanted to push their rng aids design as much as possible.

  9. #29
    But... but I thought they'd rework Subtlety? They're giving mixed signals. On the one hand they announce a small rework, on the other they make it seem like what they showed us in the blog article is the rough outline concerning the scope of the changes we are to expect.

    Eh. Whatever. Makes switching back to my original mage main much easier. All I wanted for them was to get some spells back and perhaps a slow on fire - and see, there's Frostbolt, Arcane Explosion, Mirror Images, and Alter Time Baseline. Ain't much but I'll take it. Certainly better than what rogues are getting back.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    But... but I thought they'd rework Subtlety? They're giving mixed signals. On the one hand they announce a small rework, on the other they make it seem like what they showed us in the blog article is the rough outline concerning the scope of the changes we are to expect.

    Eh. Whatever. Makes switching back to my original mage main much easier. All I wanted for them was to get some spells back and perhaps a slow on fire - and see, there's Frostbolt, Arcane Explosion, Mirror Images, and Alter Time Baseline. Ain't much but I'll take it. Certainly better than what rogues are getting back.
    what where you hoping to get back with rogues anyways? only skills i see peolly crying about is hemo, which is outdated and gouge what else are you looking for. people always cry about wanting the glory days of sub back, the "pvp king", but bliz has stated before that they build the specs around PvE and will not make one the go to pvp spec

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Radazar View Post
    what where you hoping to get back with rogues anyways? only skills i see peolly crying about is hemo, which is outdated and gouge what else are you looking for. people always cry about wanting the glory days of sub back, the "pvp king", but bliz has stated before that they build the specs around PvE and will not make one the go to pvp spec
    Nah, there was an interview with Ion where he specifically mentiones sub going back to its PvP roots for Shadowlands.

  12. #32
    Sorry, but Sub is better designed and more distinct than how it was in WoD and MoP.

    Spamming posts and thread like this (as you've been doing for years) doesn't change that. Sure have your opinion, but all you ever do is spam posts like these.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Sorry, but Sub is better designed and more distinct than how it was in WoD and MoP.

    Spamming posts and thread like this (as you've been doing for years) doesn't change that. Sure have your opinion, but all you ever do is spam posts like these.
    More distinct for sure but I can't agree that it is better designed. The *feel* while playing is worse than in pre-Legion for sure.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Sorry, but Sub is better designed and more distinct than how it was in WoD and MoP.

    Spamming posts and thread like this (as you've been doing for years) doesn't change that. Sure have your opinion, but all you ever do is spam posts like these.
    It's funny when people comment on things they aren't even invested in. I'm going to guess there is no way in hell that you're actually playing Subtlety for any significant amount of time when you log into the game.

    Galaxybrain PvElords will play whatever does the best numbers for the least amount of effort, then turn around and lecture you about the design of a spec they do not even play.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2020-04-11 at 07:22 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Well I have a ret paladin, fire mage, frost DK, WW monk, dps DH, boomkin druid, outlaw rogue, BM hunter, arms warrior, and destro lock off the top of my head and none of these changes looked interesting to me. It probably doesn't help that almost every alt was started in Legion after these abilities were removed so I have no attachment to them and had to wowhead what they even do.

    I'd be curious of a breakdown by people who are hyped as to which abilities and why having them improves the fun and function of your class.
    I'll talk about Frost DK :
    - Getting back D&D is great for a panoply of situation, from tagging mobs quickly a bit out of your range, to destealthing rogues. Building RP out of fight or during downtimes, slow cleaving people, or even playing with the fact they don't want to take more damage to bait them somewhere ;
    - New runeforges give more opportunities and potential gameplays, which is pretty much a new talent in itself ;
    - Lichborne and Death Coil give more self heal opportunity, directly converting your PR into healing in a pinch, and building on top of the "unstoppable knight" class fantasy bullshit they want to make : you can't be stunned already, or knocked back, now you can't be charmed, sapped, etc.
    - Besides, death Coil also gives us something to do when we're on range instead of just simply spamming Howling Blast and overcapping ;
    - 2h weapons back, depending on how its bone, may give the choice between big strikes which are usually more bursty, or DW which has more pressure, giving you the choice.
    - Obliterate scaling on mastery through Killing machine fixes our historical issue with scaling in endgame, due to mastery being poor for us and crit directly conflicting with a core gameplay mechanic.
    - Ghoul and Death pact is a much better iteration than the current death pact absorbing heal. Same, I don't expect Raise Dead to do any meaningful damages, but will probably be useful as a "no ressources, let's cast that" button. Besides, it now goes boom 8)
    - AMZ gives us some much needed tools to be liked in raid outside of Death's grip. I haven't seen the values yet, if it's the % reduction or flat amount, but I expect it to be a magical Darkness, which helps us secure a place in both raid and M+.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaenore View Post
    I'll talk about Frost DK :
    - Getting back D&D is great for a panoply of situation, from tagging mobs quickly a bit out of your range, to destealthing rogues. Building RP out of fight or during downtimes, slow cleaving people, or even playing with the fact they don't want to take more damage to bait them somewhere ;
    - New runeforges give more opportunities and potential gameplays, which is pretty much a new talent in itself ;
    - Lichborne and Death Coil give more self heal opportunity, directly converting your PR into healing in a pinch, and building on top of the "unstoppable knight" class fantasy bullshit they want to make : you can't be stunned already, or knocked back, now you can't be charmed, sapped, etc.
    - Besides, death Coil also gives us something to do when we're on range instead of just simply spamming Howling Blast and overcapping ;
    - 2h weapons back, depending on how its bone, may give the choice between big strikes which are usually more bursty, or DW which has more pressure, giving you the choice.
    - Obliterate scaling on mastery through Killing machine fixes our historical issue with scaling in endgame, due to mastery being poor for us and crit directly conflicting with a core gameplay mechanic.
    - Ghoul and Death pact is a much better iteration than the current death pact absorbing heal. Same, I don't expect Raise Dead to do any meaningful damages, but will probably be useful as a "no ressources, let's cast that" button. Besides, it now goes boom 8)
    - AMZ gives us some much needed tools to be liked in raid outside of Death's grip. I haven't seen the values yet, if it's the % reduction or flat amount, but I expect it to be a magical Darkness, which helps us secure a place in both raid and M+.
    This has roughly nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but one: there's already another thread with a near identical discussion going on and two: I've been drooling over Frost DK since the blogpost. Not even a DK player myself but everything we've seen so far looks good to the point of making me want to reroll (later!).

    Your point is very valid - frost is getting the best deal this time around. Owed partly to their barren status quo, of course.

    Also, alpha data states 60% absorption for AMZ for 10s, 2min CD. And the ghoul may not be doing much damage but it still has a short stun; useful in PvP. Finally, I'm glad they're moving away from DK's overreliance on Death Strike for heals. It either made you an unkillable monster in 1v1 situations or wasn't nearly enough to even give you a breather, depending on the tuning. The old Lichborne+Death Coil combo is most welcome, and so is Sacrificial Pact!

  17. #37
    People still expect anything from the current dev team? Hahahaha. They ruined the game years ago and it will never go back to being even moderately decent.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    This has roughly nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but one: there's already another thread with a near identical discussion going on and two: I've been drooling over Frost DK since the blogpost. Not even a DK player myself but everything we've seen so far looks good to the point of making me want to reroll (later!).

    Your point is very valid - frost is getting the best deal this time around. Owed partly to their barren status quo, of course.

    Also, alpha data states 60% absorption for AMZ for 10s, 2min CD. And the ghoul may not be doing much damage but it still has a short stun; useful in PvP. Finally, I'm glad they're moving away from DK's overreliance on Death Strike for heals. It either made you an unkillable monster in 1v1 situations or wasn't nearly enough to even give you a breather, depending on the tuning. The old Lichborne+Death Coil combo is most welcome, and so is Sacrificial Pact!
    Well, he wanted to know what people liked in the changes and why they were excited, gave him my point of view

    Good news for AMZ! Is the raise dead you get an actual pet ? It used to be a companion you couldn't control, back then.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaenore View Post
    Is the raise dead you get an actual pet ? It used to be a companion you couldn't control, back then.
    Oh, drat. Hadn't thought of that, this might just be the case.

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