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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    It's still funny to me that people push a meme and then think that makes them look intelligent.
    welcome to the internet, always and forever.

    did you know that Blizz is a small indie company?

  2. #182

  3. #183
    I mean the aoe changes are w/e, either smaller packs get pulled or people have to hit buttons more. It will come out in the wash.

    The first blood problem is emblematic with SL class design issues for me. Why have a talent if its the only one that will ever be picked in any type of content or any style of fight? Why has first blood existed in its current form for four years.

    Why can't blizzard address problematic talents like this during an expo? Why is it some golden rule that class iteration can only happen between expos (and then it doesn't)? Every other company with an online game is not afraid of class iteration "midseason", why only blizzard?

  4. #184
    We should really fix/replace talents that arent really used.

    In that video I can see that momentum is buffed. Momentum is a liability. You gotta move around all the time. You will be pulling extra stuff by accident. Moving in and out of stuff you should be in or avoid. etc. Its risky. Not only that, momentum is high skill cap (another point to liability) and while simulates well, actual use is much harder. In my opinion, its always best to chose spec that makes you perform well reliably unless you got a good reason to do otherwise.
    You will also use up your mobility with fel rush on cooldown reducing that dh well know mobility by quite a lot.

    If its even a slightest possibility, I will never pick momentum. Unless its entirely and absolutely broken that everyone picks simply because there is no point picking anything else. Even in that case its likely blizz quickly nerfs it.
    Last edited by Morae; 2020-05-12 at 11:56 AM.

  5. #185
    I posted this already in Bay's video, but I will proceed to tell my experience with the class as a Cutting Edge raider with Havoc DH since the class has been released.

    Havoc has been overtuned in terms of defensives ever since it was released, and this is a fact. Blur is probably the most overpowered personal cooldown, with a massive damage reduction plus a dodge that seriously, makes no sense from a gameplay perspective on a 1 minute CD. It deserved to be nerfed.

    The BDance dodge (and DSweep by extension) is another thing that makes no sense gameplay wise. It has a niche, but to be honest, that niche broke stuff. No class should have a skill with 10 seconds cooldown that is able to flat out ignore mechanics.

    Extending into this, I could say the same about the Meta iframes. They should be gone too.

    About the leech, I'm glad it's gone from the default Meta. It was a massive liability in Ra'den. Chances are you will be using Soul Rending in 99% of the content anyway.

    Having said that, DH deserved no nerfs whatsoever in both its playability and its damage. People hate DHs because they're easy to play and they're flashy and everyone has one. And this can be easily seen by a number of facts:

    1/ Havoc is not the best performing spec in ANY content of the game. There're specs better suited for Single Target, AoE and Cleave. Same can be said about PvP.
    2/ Havoc is the only DPS spec available for DHs. If Havoc is not performing above average, you might as well play another class.
    3/ Chaos Brand should be gone. I don't want to be playing a spec only because it provides a debuff that's needed for PvE encounters.

    Having said that, why people hate Havoc so much is because of one word. Versatility. Havoc is probably the best spec in the game in terms of adapting to content with 0 talent changes. And that's a good thing imo, every spec should be able to deal with all kinds of content without sucking at something else.

    Now, onto Talents:

    - Momentum. Blizzard is pushing this with the Felblade RPPM buffs for some reason. Even though people say this is the only source of skill for Havocs, they can't be more wrong. There's nothing hard about pressing Fel Rush once every 6 seconds.

    The difficulty about Momentum is directly in relation with the content you're doing, and that's what's wrong about it, among other things.

    1/ Momentum takes away your mobility. Mobility should be used to deal with mechanics and moving from a place to another, not to DPS.
    2/ As said, Momentum difficulty relies on content's design way too much. Momentum is not usable in a lot of Mythic + / Raids due to the sheer amount of mechanics you have to deal with.

    Other than that, Momentum is fine. If they want us to deal with DPS windows, that's completely fine. The only thing they have to change is how to activate it.

    My proposal at a rework:

    Momentum: Jump into the air and gather Fel energies. Deals X amount of AoE chaos damage. For the next X seconds you deal % increased damage and you generate X% more Fury.

    Basically a button you press, do a flashy animation and you deal more damage and generate more fury for some seconds. Said animation is in the GCD and that's why it deals some AoE damage. The VR component is removed for the reasons explained above.

    - Nemesis: Tell me a single person that enjoys how this talent works. Just not fun to use, super punishing, and again, relies on content design. I could count with the fingers of my right hand the number of bosses that had adds with the race as the main target.

    Just remove this talent and replace it with Chaos Blades.

    - Demonic: This talent is basically what I believe the class fantasy for Havoc should be and what Blizzard should try to push. It feels good to press, it makes the spec feel fluid and fast, and it provides us with a small burst of damage and healing. In one word, this talent means versatility.

    It's short duration, but it's also short CD, which means we have little problem adapting to most of the situations. I'd even go as far as saying that this talent should be baseline at this point, and replaced with Furious Gaze.

    - First Blood: This talent is just core of Havoc after 2 expansions. Without it, we lose any reason to press Blade Dance in ST scenarios, and tbh, it provides Havoc with some skills that they desperately need in their Single Target rotation.

    Not pressing BDance in ST scenarios means we're spamming DBite and CS all the time. That's just boring. Add DBlades to the mix and you have a 1 key rotation, super engaging.

    First Blood should be baseline at this point. It's also that no matter what talent you put in this row, it won't be picked up ever just because of how strong First Blood is.

    - Fel Barrage: Won't see any usage at all with the target cap. It had a niche in BfA, high target count and short bursted AoE. With the target cap, this won't win Trail of Ruin under any situation whatsoever.

    And finally, a rework of sorts I've been thinking about. Metamorphosis is too long of a CD, and it doesn't feel impacting or anything. Havoc DHs don't have high amounts of burst damage, if anything, they have higher than average sustained damage.

    This is super easy to see in any log, see how Havocs are bursting on openers for close to 1 minute. This is bad for various reasons:

    1/ Havoc relies way more than other melees on uptime, a Havoc that loses uptime loses way more DPS than any other melee spec in the game.
    2/ Metamorphosis, being so long of a Cooldown, is super hard to use correctly when you want it to.

    I also feel Metamorphosis doesn't add anything to the rotation that Demonic doesn't already. Just remove it. On it's place, buff the now baseline Demonic to something like 15 seconds. That way, Havoc turns into a spec that weaves in and out of controlled Meta windows, and you keep that above 50% meta uptime we're used to with the current build.
    Last edited by Laurin; 2020-05-13 at 10:37 AM.

  6. #186
    I absolutely agree if nothing else demonic and first blood should be baseline, without it the spec doesn't have a 'mechanic' and it loses another button (which it can ill afford). I think Havoc probably needs extensive work done to its talents in general but that's neither here nor there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurin View Post
    Having said that, DH deserved no nerfs whatsoever in both its playability and its damage. People hate DHs because they're easy to play and they're flashy and everyone has one. And this can be easily seen by a number of facts:

    1/ Havoc is not the best performing spec in ANY content of the game. There're specs better suited for Single Target, AoE and Cleave. Same can be said about PvP.
    2/ Havoc is the only DPS spec available for DHs. If Havoc is not performing above average, you might as well play another class.
    3/ Chaos Brand should be gone. I don't want to be playing a spec only because it provides a debuff that's needed for PvE encounters.

    Having said that, why people hate Havoc so much is because of one word. Versatility. Havoc is probably the best spec in the game in terms of adapting to content with 0 talent changes. And that's a good thing imo, every spec should be able to deal with all kinds of content without sucking at something else.
    It's better to be number three in every type of content number 1 in pvp and number 31 in m+. Havoc's perception of strength is that it is above average at everything, especially at mid and low levels of play where the power to face roll ratio rally shines.

    Havoc being the DH's only dps spec is not even vaguely an excuse for being above average at everything since they were added to the game (except briefly in antorus where they were meh at raiding but still good in pvp and m+). Right now ret and WW are the two worst dps specs in the game and they're the only dps spec of their respective classes, it's outperforming both DK specs, both shaman specs and all rogue specs. This is another factor that goes into that negative perception of DH, everyone else gets to ride the balance carousel DH's seem to skate by never being below average.

    I disagree with the bolded section of your comment though, different types of specs have always had advantages and disadvantages; Dot Specs suck at burst (because of ramp), turret specs suck at mobility, high burst specs suck at sustained damage, ramp specs suck at target switching.
    You are absolutely right about havoc's versatility, unfortunately, that versatility is born of its simplicity they're inherently linked. Because havoc isn't any type of spec and it aoe and st are inherently linked you effectively can't nerf any aspect of its kit without nerfing the whole thing because havoc has no aspects to its kit.

  7. #187
    i was completely and utterly disappointed at the lack of changes to the class for shadowlands. it basically added nothing to the experience if anything they are taking it away .

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by syrencove View Post
    i was completely and utterly disappointed at the lack of changes to the class for shadowlands. it basically added nothing to the experience if anything they are taking it away .

    The base ability changes are shocking but some nice things to try with covenants.

  9. #189
    I already feel sad for abandoning my beautiful, beautiful DH in shadowlands. It will be a poor shell of its former self. Demonic reduced by 2 seconds, no furious gaze baked into Demonic, Blade Dance capped to 4-5 targets, no more skillful dodging (blade dance)... It's going to play like absolute fucking ass and I can't stand that. I guess it's time roll monk and switch to tanking from full time DPS.

  10. #190
    Bloodsail Admiral scvd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    no more skillful dodging (blade dance)...
    lmao what?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by scvd View Post
    lmao what?
    You could taunt off some abilities in M+ and blade dance at the right time to dodge the mechanic, sparing your tank or other group members the trouble. It was a nice little thing that you could do to further help your group. It required knowledge and good timing, which is why I've called it "skillful".

  12. #192
    Bloodsail Admiral scvd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    You could taunt off some abilities in M+ and blade dance at the right time to dodge the mechanic, sparing your tank or other group members the trouble. It was a nice little thing that you could do to further help your group. It required knowledge and good timing, which is why I've called it "skillful".
    I taunt and karma often, i wouldn't call it skillful, and I sure as shit wouldn't call it skillful if it had a 4 second cd haha.
    Last edited by scvd; 2020-05-20 at 08:14 AM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I absolutely agree if nothing else demonic and first blood should be baseline, without it the spec doesn't have a 'mechanic' and it loses another button (which it can ill afford). I think Havoc probably needs extensive work done to its talents in general but that's neither here nor there.


    It's better to be number three in every type of content number 1 in pvp and number 31 in m+. Havoc's perception of strength is that it is above average at everything, especially at mid and low levels of play where the power to face roll ratio rally shines.

    Havoc being the DH's only dps spec is not even vaguely an excuse for being above average at everything since they were added to the game (except briefly in antorus where they were meh at raiding but still good in pvp and m+). Right now ret and WW are the two worst dps specs in the game and they're the only dps spec of their respective classes, it's outperforming both DK specs, both shaman specs and all rogue specs. This is another factor that goes into that negative perception of DH, everyone else gets to ride the balance carousel DH's seem to skate by never being below average.

    I disagree with the bolded section of your comment though, different types of specs have always had advantages and disadvantages; Dot Specs suck at burst (because of ramp), turret specs suck at mobility, high burst specs suck at sustained damage, ramp specs suck at target switching.
    You are absolutely right about havoc's versatility, unfortunately, that versatility is born of its simplicity they're inherently linked. Because havoc isn't any type of spec and it aoe and st are inherently linked you effectively can't nerf any aspect of its kit without nerfing the whole thing because havoc has no aspects to its kit.
    ....What?

    Unholy is outright broken in M+ and competitive enough in raids on top of the fact both DK specs were nerfed in PvP recently because they were doing so well to begin with.

    There is nothing remotely wrong with unholy. Unholy couldn't possibly be better as a spec right now. It lost the least of all specs from Legion to BfA since the cunts at Blizzard actually baselined the Legion artifact ability to this spec, unlike for most.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    ....What?

    Unholy is outright broken in M+ and competitive enough in raids on top of the fact both DK specs were nerfed in PvP recently because they were doing so well to begin with.

    There is nothing remotely wrong with unholy. Unholy couldn't possibly be better as a spec right now. It lost the least of all specs from Legion to BfA since the cunts at Blizzard actually baselined the Legion artifact ability to this spec, unlike for most.
    ....What?
    I didn't mention unholy in my post? Other then tangentially mentioning that Havoc is outperforming it in raids (which it is).

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    ....What?
    I didn't mention unholy in my post? Other then tangentially mentioning that Havoc is outperforming it in raids (which it is).
    You said it's outperforming, period. You didn't specify raids. You can't say it's outperforming DK when it's losing in m+ and pvp+ and only performing better in raids.

    If any DK is envious of DH, they are straight up retarded.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    You said it's outperforming, period. You didn't specify raids. You can't say it's outperforming DK when it's losing in m+ and pvp+ and only performing better in raids.

    If any DK is envious of DH, they are straight up retarded.
    First of all, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about in M+, unholy is only good on massive MDI meme pulls because its aoe triple dips on itself and scales exponent with number of adds.
    Back in reality, DH is the most popular m+ melee by a mile (as in 10% more then the next used spec and is usage only goes up as you increase key difficulty. In fact, at all relevant key levels (from 15 to 20+) unholy remains consistently the 5th most used spec. So in reality havoc is the best melee dps in M+

    In PvP every single tier and comp list has: Muti and WW as S tier and Unholy and Havok as A tier. I don't PvP but it doesn't exactly look like Havok is hurting their either.

    Like I previously said in Ny'alotha Havoc is at worst second-best melee dps spec (behind warriors).

    That means (read in the light most favourable to you) Havoc is: The best (by lightyears) melee spec in M+; The second-best melee spec in a raid; and; The fourth best melee spec in PvP.
    My heart goes out to you man havoc is in such a rough place right now... I bet all the ret pallies, sub rogues, enhancement shamans, survival hunters and feral druids are sending their best wishes and hoping you're back on top soon.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-05-22 at 01:28 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    First of all, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about in M+, unholy is only good on massive MDI meme pulls because its aoe triple dips on itself and scales exponent with number of adds.
    Back in reality, DH is the most popular m+ melee by a mile (as in 10% more then the next used spec and is usage only goes up as you increase key difficulty. In fact, at all relevant key levels (from 15 to 20+) unholy remains consistently the 5th most used spec. So in reality havoc is the best melee dps in M+

    In PvP every single tier and comp list has: Muti and WW as S tier and Unholy and Havok as A tier. I don't PvP but it doesn't exactly look like Havok is hurting their either.

    Like I previously said in Ny'alotha Havoc is at worst second-best melee dps spec (behind warriors).

    That means (read in the light most favourable to you) Havoc is: The best (by lightyears) melee spec in M+; The second-best melee spec in a raid; and; The fourth best melee spec in PvP.
    My heart goes out to you man havoc is in such a rough place right now... I bet all the ret pallies, sub rogues, enhancement shamans, survival hunters and feral druids are sending their best wishes and hoping you're back on top soon.
    lmao, of course Havoc usage exceeds other classes, but that's because of chaos brand to prop up the other DPS classes, not for the DPS of its own. And it's not just massive MDI pulls, unholy beats Havoc in sustained aoe on single and even 2 pack pulls.

    Havoc is not in a rough spot, but neither is DK let alone rogue with their ridiculous shroud of concealment and utility making them among the most stacked class in raids.

    I don't even main Havoc (boring as fuck one dimensional 2-3 button spec); I main unholy DK, so you can spare me your passive aggressive bitch ass sneering.

  18. #198
    CHaos Brand still remains in Shadowlands?

  19. #199
    Unbound Chaos is coming back..........my favorite thing of all time.......is back.
    wtf

  20. #200
    Some rewording of the Fury of the Illidari tooltip could suggest it's coming back aswell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Baine is like the most unlikeable character you are supposed to like.

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