Enhancement changes 9.0 Discussion

[Oturanboa]

I like enhance's feeling of the 'spellblade' magical warrior class (it's why I main a dk). I don't necessarily agree with everything Kralljin is saying, but I do agree that the pay off for MW weapon shouldn't be elemental's filler.
At an absolute minimum blizzard should give it a new name and icon so it 'feels' more powerful and different, anything; galvanizing blast, shock, lightning flash, lightning shock, thundering bolt anything.

Here's my example, how bad would it feel If subtlety's combo point finisher was called sinister strike, Instead of eviscerate?

Personally, i would like something with exaggerated version of crash lightning as animation. But im surely fine with lightning bolt as it is Just want the damage to be increased by a shit ton.

[Kalarm]

Ok so patch notes are up.

Frost shock DMG is buffed. Meaning it will go back to be flame -> frost -> flame rotation.

I now understand the change to SB. So now it will basically just shorten the CD. I do wonder how stormfury will feel with this... The CD will constantly reset while WF will be reducing it. Meaning that WF procs will be "wasted" whenever there is a SB proc. It feels odd now actually. We'll see how it plays I guess!

Now for LB/CL... That is quite alarming. The DMG is really cut by 50%, meaning that MSW will now put them back to where they were in previous patch, which was not much. LB desperately need more punch.

WF/FT DMG buffed to 60m. Not passive but at least it's something.

Still, good direction, but LB still need more oomph and LL better base synergy.

[Venziir]

So, that new version of Totem Mastery seems erm... Odd.

[Saltysquidoon]

So, that new version of Totem Mastery seems erm... Odd.

Hey, it might be good for pulling pugs out of the fire and pvp? I don't really see it being used in competent groups, which is fine by me totem master and actual totems looks dumb as hell.

[Venziir]

Hey, it might be good for pulling pugs out of the fire and pvp? I don't really see it being used in competent groups, which is fine by me totem master and actual totems looks dumb as hell.

Oh I agree, if this means I won't be "forced" to use Totem Mastery - yay.

[Kralljin]

You're example is also very clunky. Enh doesn't switch into some other form, run into melee to ferocious bite and to finally go back at range in boomkin form.

You can also turn it around and say a Feral suddenly throws Wrath and Starsurge at people that deals more damage than a Balance one, because reasons.

A balance druid can still dash in cat form.

Yeah, utility based overlapping is fine.
On a related note: Spirit Walk (which is essentially dash) is Enhancement only.

And we -need- some hard hitter abilities, be it melee or spell damage.

How about some *spec* specific abilities?
Lava Lash?
Stormstrike?

Imagine if your weapons get more empowered with elemental energy as you attack opponents and you then unleash it in one massive strike.

Hey, it might be good for pulling pugs out of the fire and pvp? I don't really see it being used in competent groups, which is fine by me totem master and actual totems looks dumb as hell.

They basically removed baseline searing totem and turned it into a talent with some additional utility.

[wushootaki]

I don't understand your reply.

I'm explaining why i didn't really like Maelstrom weapon, you explain that's been a core mechanic.
...Yes, i know that, doesn't mean that said mechanic causes rather weird situations because i don't think the spells from a Melee spec should flat out deal more damage than one from a caster spec.

Those cast can complement the Melee spec, but not become a cornerstone of the rotation, which needs to hit for a significant amount to feel statisying.

We aren't a melee class though. Shaman is a caster class with a melee spec. Original shaman didn't even have a melee attack outside of talenting into stormstrike. I think you are looking at enhance and expecting it to be like other melee, but its fundamentally different in how they approached it. Other melee classes didn't have 20-25 yard range abilities or the ability to pull from range without ammo (this is going back to classic when classes were designed).

Enhance has changed over the years, but utlimately until the overhaul in WoD, it always seemed approached from the mindset of, this is a battle mage...not an actuall melee that can also cast spells. It's a spellcaster that melees. This is even more evident now with seeing how they've taken away Rockbiter as a melee filler. So Shaman will have 1 stormstrike every 7 sec, Lava Lash every 12, with Shocks filling the gap and MW x 4/5 LB/EB. The fact that they took away another melee filler and leaned heavily into the spell augmentation side of things on reinforces that shaman is approached as a caster class who gets a melee spec, rather than a melee class.

[Kalarm]

You can also turn it around and say a Feral suddenly throws Wrath and Starsurge at people that deals more damage than a Balance one, because reasons.

Feral wasn't built with the idea of being a balance druid in melee. Plus, they literally have a talent to moonfire in cat form AND a talent row to be able to do another specs role a bit better.

Enh was built with the idea of being an ele sham that melee. SS was our one defining ability in vanilla. Even windfury was usable by ele and resto. That wasn't the core idea of druids tho. Their toolsets were always the most divided. You're picking the class that always had the strongest spec identity to warrant changing enh to pure melee when everyone is asking for more class identity. Lava lash came in WoTLK to give a bit more flavour and to kill off 2H. All 3 specs always shared a whole lot of their tools. You could use MSW to cast chain heals or healing rain. Ancestral guidance let you burst heal your group by doing DMG. We had healing stream, etc etc. It's only in legion where we lost a whole lot of shaman specific things and most people hated that. That's why they are going back to more class identity.

Shams are casters. We need to have a lot of spells. LB graphic could be cooler in melee, I agree, but it should still be a good part of our DMG, as it were. I love that if an enemy can't be meleed, I can still cast shocks on it and lightning bolts. I can even pop ascendance if I'm specced into it and do most of my rotation minus lava lash. That's what we like about enh. We're spellcasters first and melee second.

[Lex Icon]

does LB still have that ugly ass blue/white noodle looking animation?
since i saw crash lightning and that one i always wondered why they had to make it a terrible animation coming from your hands rather than something striking the enemy from above.

[Oturanboa]

Feral wasn't built with the idea of being a balance druid in melee. Plus, they literally have a talent to moonfire in cat form AND a talent row to be able to do another specs role a bit better.

Enh was built with the idea of being an ele sham that melee. SS was our one defining ability in vanilla. Even windfury was usable by ele and resto. That wasn't the core idea of druids tho. Their toolsets were always the most divided. You're picking the class that always had the strongest spec identity to warrant changing enh to pure melee when everyone is asking for more class identity. Lava lash came in WoTLK to give a bit more flavour and to kill off 2H. All 3 specs always shared a whole lot of their tools. You could use MSW to cast chain heals or healing rain. Ancestral guidance let you burst heal your group by doing DMG. We had healing stream, etc etc. It's only in legion where we lost a whole lot of shaman specific things and most people hated that. That's why they are going back to more class identity.

Shams are casters. We need to have a lot of spells. LB graphic could be cooler in melee, I agree, but it should still be a good part of our DMG, as it were. I love that if an enemy can't be meleed, I can still cast shocks on it and lightning bolts. I can even pop ascendance if I'm specced into it and do most of my rotation minus lava lash. That's what we like about enh. We're spellcasters first and melee second.

yes indeed, this is why i dont like them adding damage increase into msw. We should be able to spam lb for bad dps. However dps none the less. Give it a long cd or whatever but when you're locked down in your place, your hard casted LBs should hurt not as ideal as melee ofc, not even close, but still.

[Saltysquidoon]

Enhance has changed over the years, but utlimately until the overhaul in WoD, it always seemed approached from the mindset of, this is a battle mage...not an actuall melee that can also cast spells. It's a spellcaster that melees. This is even more evident now with seeing how they've taken away Rockbiter as a melee filler. So Shaman will have 1 stormstrike every 7 sec, Lava Lash every 12, with Shocks filling the gap and MW x 4/5 LB/EB. The fact that they took away another melee filler and leaned heavily into the spell augmentation side of things on reinforces that shaman is approached as a caster class who gets a melee spec, rather than a melee class.

I agree with you that shamans are battle mages and blizzard should lean into that as enhancement's niche.

But the stuff about rockbiter is wrong? Rockbiter is getting removed because maelstrom isn't going to be blue fury anymore and given that there is no need for it since LL exists. Even on live LL and RB basically do the same overall damage and both feel like filler.

Frankly, even with the new changes it's annoying you have to talent into things to make ll not be filler.

[Kalarm]

yes indeed, this is why i dont like them adding damage increase into msw. We should be able to spam lb for bad dps. However dps none the less. Give it a long cd or whatever but when you're locked down in your place, your hard casted LBs should hurt not as ideal as melee ofc, not even close, but still.

The thing for me is, LB is by default a filler spell. Ele casts it all the time when they don't have LvB or anything. In the past and right now(well until this patch), LB was the same DMG between ele and enh. Meaning that an enh sham spamming LB was already doing bad DMG as it's really just a filler spell. The mistake that I feel they are doing now is toning down the DMG of LB for enh. It makes casting LB back to back incredibly low DPS while making a MSW casted LB be... The same dmg as an ele sham? We have the advantage of casting it instantly yes that is true, but it is meant to be a big moment for enh. It's meant to be high priority and compete with SS in our total DMG. Previous expansions had that 20% dmg buff per charges they added back now. Even more then that, SS would buff nature DMG and later on changed to crit chance. In WoD, we even had unleash weapons (or elements I don't remember) which boosted LB's DMG even more in a window. Now... LB is doing the same DMG as the base LB of ele... There is something kinda wrong with that. It's alpha, they shouldn't have touched the DMG and added the bonus and see where that puts us. SS and LB need to be the 2 most important abilities. SS is going to be doing less DMG overall now that SB was changed, that DMG needs to be part of something else. They buffed frost shock's DMG but also nerfed flame shock base DMG. It's... not big DMG but there's that. The removal of RB also reduces our DMG and sources of DMG's. So basically, they could of easily made LB stronger and not make us OP. Which shouldn't be a problem anyway since it's alpha and they should be focussing on the feel of the spec and not numbers. Having LB not important is a big deal because then it leads into a type of gameplay that doesn't put much importance to using LB.

[Kralljin]

Even windfury was usable by ele and resto.

Windfury didn't do more damage as Ele / Resto, or did it?
Or Melee damage in general?

You're picking the class that always had the strongest spec identity

I also provided another example.

I could also (yet) provide another one, Diseases as DK didn't magically do more damage as Frost / Blood, Diseases are a part of Frost / Blood toolkit as well, but not as essential as they are for Unholy.

Like mate, the who bangs their head on the druid is you.

enh to pure melee when everyone is asking for more class identity.

Okay, first off, you're building a strawman right now.

I said_multiple_times by now, Enhancement having shocks (which are spells btw.) is totally fine, you could even retain the Maelstrom weapon mechanic, it just should do something than just turn LB into a nuke button for Enhancement, let it empower you with Lightning that your attacks cause Nature damage, another person suggested that it could buff Stormstrike.

Second, This entire "class identity" thing is just straight bogus.
I don't think both Elemental and Enhancement using Lightning bolt really gives them any sort of connection outside of thematic reasons.

This entire concept of "class identity" stems from the concept that each spec
1.Plays similiarly
2.Has similiar strengths & weaknesses

Enhancement and Elemental do not really have a similiar playstyle to begin with, as Lightning bolt has a totally different purpose to Elemental than Enhancement.
That also fundamentally undermines the concept of "class identity" as far as LB is concerned, if Lightning Bolt would be "filler spell" for Enhancement as well, you could at least say "yeah, okay, there's the connection in terms of playstyle", but it's completely turned on its head.
Shocks are filler spells for Enhancement.
Shocks are priority spells for Ele.

Lightning bolt is a nuke for Enhancement.
Lightning bolt is filler for Ele.

Where's the "class identity" here?

Ironically, Shaman had more "class identity" back when supporting was their class identity and during that time, Enhancement didn't use Lightning bolt.

Wotlk DK's are a good example of "class identity" here, all of them shared a resource system, all of them had a basic playstyle of apply diseases => use spec specific strikes => use spec specific spells to dump runic power.
Similiar playstyle, yet slightly different for each spec.

We aren't a melee class though. Shaman is a caster class with a melee spec. Original shaman didn't even have a melee attack outside of talenting into stormstrike.

...and talents that allowed them to use 2h Handed alongside talents to improve their Melee damage.
Like, the argument of "no melee" attacks while referencing Classic playstyle might be tad odd considering Ret virtually did not have a single melee ability.

[Kalarm]

Windfury didn't do more damage as Ele / Resto, or did it?
Or Melee damage in general?

I also provided another example.

I could also (yet) provide another one, Diseases as DK didn't magically do more damage as Frost / Blood, Diseases are a part of Frost / Blood toolkit as well, but not as essential as they are for Unholy.

Like mate, the who bangs their head on the druid is you.

Okay, first off, you're building a strawman right now.

I said_multiple_times by now, Enhancement having shocks (which are spells btw.) is totally fine, you could even retain the Maelstrom weapon mechanic, it just should do something than just turn LB into a nuke button for Enhancement, let it empower you with Lightning that your attacks cause Nature damage, another person suggested that it could buff Stormstrike.

Second, This entire "class identity" thing is just straight bogus.
I don't think both Elemental and Enhancement using Lightning bolt really gives them any sort of connection outside of thematic reasons.

This entire concept of "class identity" stems from the concept that each spec
1.Plays similiarly
2.Has similiar strengths & weaknesses

Enhancement and Elemental do not really have a similiar playstyle to begin with, as Lightning bolt has a totally different purpose to Elemental than Enhancement.
That also fundamentally undermines the concept of "class identity" as far as LB is concerned, if Lightning Bolt would be "filler spell" for Enhancement as well, you could at least say "yeah, okay, there's the connection in terms of playstyle", but it's completely turned on its head.
Shocks are filler spells for Enhancement.
Shocks are priority spells for Ele.

Lightning bolt is a nuke for Enhancement.
Lightning bolt is filler for Ele.

Where's the "class identity" here?

Ironically, Shaman had more "class identity" back when supporting was their class identity and during that time, Enhancement didn't use Lightning bolt.

Wotlk DK's are a good example of "class identity" here, all of them shared a resource system, all of them had a basic playstyle of apply diseases => use spec specific strikes => use spec specific spells to dump runic power.
Similiar playstyle, yet slightly different for each spec.

...and talents that allowed them to use 2h Handed alongside talents to improve their Melee damage.
Like, the argument of "no melee" attacks while referencing Classic playstyle might be tad odd considering Ret virtually did not have a single melee ability.

Enh did do more DMG with WF than ele and resto. We had a talent that boosted it's dmg by 40%. We also had a talent to use 2h maces and axes which means better DMG. We also had another talent that increased weapon DMG by 10%. Another talent to boosted strength of earth and also a talent that increased our crit chance with weapons by 5% and yet another talent to increase melee attack speed when we crit Most of those stayed in BC.

For DK, well, frost in WoTLK and maybe even later on would actually attack faster and slow down the target/reduce it's DMG. The other specs did other things with them I think but were broader in what diseases they affect.

The theme is important. For the class identity thing they aren't going to make all spec play more similarly, they are adding things back that were part of other specs. A frost mage doesn't just forget how to use fire spells and vice versa. They may just use it differently or not at all. The class identity in LB is... using LB. You're a shaman, you throw lightning bolts. The fact that one is a filler and the other is a nuke is meaningless, the identity lies in what spells they use, the rest is just numbers.

Back when were support? So you mean Vanilla? Because we've been throwing lightning bolts since BC. Even in vanilla we could still throw lightning bolts if necessary. Enh's playstyle was pretty crappy back then. You'd basically just be waiting for WF procs.

But... WOTLK DK's didn't play that similarly... Frost gameplay is the same since then. You get KM procs, you OB, you frost strike, your HB when rime is up. The difference is that you'd blood strike and plague strike as fillers. Which hey that's odd, blood strike was a filler for frost but pretty important for unholy while important for blood (or replaced it with heart strike I don't remember). Blood would use IT for threat generation while frost would use it for DMG. They all had the same ressource but their gameplay was very different while still using the same abilities in different ways. I can see what you mean but what you described is really just... what ressource they were given. Hell druids don't even care about the same ressources through each spec. Mages, warlocks and priests all have their twists even though it's all mana. Even legion's enh was really just using a form of rage.

[Kralljin]

A frost mage doesn't just forget how to use fire spells and vice versa. They may just use it differently or not at all. The class identity in LB is... using LB. You're a shaman, you throw lightning bolts. The fact that one is a filler and the other is a nuke is meaningless, the identity lies in what spells they use, the rest is just numbers.

And your comparison fails again.

Do non Frost mages actually use Frostbolt as part of their rotation?
Does it on occassion hit harder than Frostbolt from a Frost Mage because of some procs?

And i'm telling you, it's not about having Lightning bolt, it's not even about them using Lightning bolt, it's about Enhance doing more damage with a spell than an actual spellcaster.

Back when were support? So you mean Vanilla? Because we've been throwing lightning bolts since BC.

Maelstrom weapon wasn't introduced until Wotlk.

But... WOTLK DK's didn't play that similarly... Frost gameplay is the same since then.

Compared to Enhance and Ele, they were damn similiar.

Even legion's enh was really just using a form of rage.

And Maelstrom weapon are basically combo points, like that's not really a valid criticism.

[Kalarm]

And your comparison fails again.

Do non Frost mages actually use Frostbolt as part of their rotation?
Does it on occassion hit harder than Frostbolt from a Frost Mage because of some procs?

And i'm telling you, it's not about having Lightning bolt, it's not even about them using Lightning bolt, it's about Enhance doing more damage with a spell than an actual spellcaster.

Maelstrom weapon wasn't introduced until Wotlk.

Compared to Enhance and Ele, they were damn similiar.

And Maelstrom weapon are basically combo points, like that's not really a valid criticism.

So what if we're casting a buffed up version of an elemental spell? It's not their main DMG, we're casting a filler not lava bursts that deals more DMG than ele's. Enhancing our spells through melee attacks is part of our identity.

Shamans is a more homogeneous class than mages or DK. Of course a fire mage won't hit with harder hitting frostbolts. It's not specializing in that. We're ENHANCEment shamans. We ENHANCE our weapons, our spells and our party members. Our LB is much, much weaker than ele's by default. We then ENHANCE it through our melee attacks in which we specialize. Resto is currently having harder hitting lightning bolts and lava bursts. Ele is better because of overload and other things but the base DMG of those 2 are straight up near double of ele's.

You're right, I was remembering MW as part of BC. Oh well.

This discussion is moot. I like casting LB as enh and having it deal DMG, you don't like it. It's useless to continue this.

[silva52]

Just from looking at it the build we have rn reminds me the most of wotlk times. back then we had SS ES LL and LB/CL. that was basically it and it was an absolute fantastic rotation imo. ofc totems and lightning shield refresh now and then.

and as you guys said before blizz really tries to make this specc into a battle mage again with the removing of RB and added synergy and dmg to shocks and MSW.

I think the reason rn why LB got nerved so much is that our specc is simply too strong. the synergy of MWS is very high overall with lighting shield MWS procc chance, reduced SS and buffed LL synergies. also wolves giving stacks etc. we will have a ton of MSW proccs and that only gets more with added gear over time.

So devs probably see that we can basicly fire off a LB every couple seconds now wich is fun and the way it should be but the other abilties are probably too strong rn to justify that so they reduced the LB damage. i would rather have medium dmg on SS LL and shocks and higher damage on the LB to make it satisfying. back in wotlk SS hit for solid dmg. but the more exciting part was it procced WF most of the times and gave you a couple of stacks of MSW or even procced into a full 5 so u could LB or LC wich was the dream. also shocks were in the rotation and with talents they got buffed aswell and actually had pretty nice crits now and then. overall a well rounded battlemage. so blizz pls. chill on the SS proccs. get back to the battlemage style.(wich u are already trying, but now add sense to it) give us meaningful attacks. let us use that MSW and give us thicc LBs.

short edit: i said too strong at the beginning, and i still mean that, but i didnt go into the fire nova and passive dmg that flameshock spreading etc adds. combined with the tool kit rn i think its jsut too much too ask for fat LBs because than we are basicly gods of ever scenario.

[ddsad2212]

Be interesting to see if legendaries allow for heavy flame shock build in AoE. With the current limitations to AoE I wonder if a mass dot style with Lashing flame, cycle of the elements and Ascendance will become a thing. At the very least it'll finally give a melee some half decent spread cleave

[Kralljin]

It's not their main DMG, we're casting a filler not lava bursts that deals more DMG than ele's.

Highlights pretty well why it's bogus to argue with "class fantasy" there.

I highlighted it above, these two spells serve very different purposes for each spec, thus the idea of class fantasy falls through the floor there.

Shamans is a more homogeneous class than mages or DK.

Okay, now that's just straight BS.

All three Shaman specializations do very different things (Melee, Ranged and Heal), as opposed to the three Mage specializations which are all Ranged Dps, or DK where at least two specializations are Melee.

Resto is currently having harder hitting lightning bolts and lava bursts.

Mainly because Blizzard decided that Healers also need to do a modicum of damage for solo content, not as a Resto specific feature.

And that btw. is also rather silly as well, especially in the light of the fact that nowadays you can respec with the press of a button.

[Bomba the Shaman]

I really wish LL would spread Flame Shock to multiple targets, I don't like the idea of enhance multidoting FS for AoE, since that appears to be idea behind Fire Nova if I'm reading the notes right, it causes ALL of your FS target to erupt? That means the more targets you have FS on the more damage it does?

Wouldn't be better if we would just spread flame shock with Lava Lash rather then being forced to manually cast FS on many targets?