Enhancement changes 9.0 Discussion

[Segus1992]

Ahh yes, i always favor 2hand survival over dual wield. Wait a second...
2 Handed enhancement is never gonna happen. It was a fucking meme build for a reason

Are you being dense on purpose?

Saying 2-handed Enh was a meme doesn't mean anything at all, because melee Hunter became a thing, which wasn't even a meme but a very early idea for Hunter that got scrapped very early in Vanilla.

2-handed Enh was a thing until Wrath. There's absolutely grounds to bring it back. The reason they won't (unless they make Enh into a pure 2-handed spec) is because the spec currently works around being dual wield. None of the other specs that got the weapon flexibility change do.

[Kalarm]

Are you being dense on purpose?

Saying 2-handed Enh was a meme doesn't mean anything at all, because melee Hunter became a thing, which wasn't even a meme but a very early idea for Hunter that got scrapped very early in Vanilla.

2-handed Enh was a thing until Wrath. There's absolutely grounds to bring it back. The reason they won't (unless they make Enh into a pure 2-handed spec) is because the spec currently works around being dual wield. None of the other specs that got the weapon flexibility change do.

Until wrath? I never saw any 2H enh sham in BC. Are you sure you're not thinking of BC? Maybe BC let you use a 2H if you really wanted it but it wasn't made for that at all.

And yeah, 2H enh would be a whole more efforts to create then frost DK or WW monk since they aren't designed for it at all. Enh is built all around random procs on weapon hits, which is significantly different between 2H and DW.

[Segus1992]

Until wrath? I never saw any 2H enh sham in BC. Are you sure you're not thinking of BC? Maybe BC let you use a 2H if you really wanted it but it wasn't made for that at all.

And yeah, 2H enh would be a whole more efforts to create then frost DK or WW monk since they aren't designed for it at all. Enh is built all around random procs on weapon hits, which is significantly different between 2H and DW.

No, until Wrath. It wasn't as good for PvE but the inherent burst in a 2h Stormstrike WF made it the only PvP choice. Look at a TBC talent calculator and tell me they didn't at all design it with both 2h and dual wield in mind.

[lollerlaban]

Are you being dense on purpose?

Saying 2-handed Enh was a meme doesn't mean anything at all, because melee Hunter became a thing, which wasn't even a meme but a very early idea for Hunter that got scrapped very early in Vanilla.

2-handed Enh was a thing until Wrath. There's absolutely grounds to bring it back. The reason they won't (unless they make Enh into a pure 2-handed spec) is because the spec currently works around being dual wield. None of the other specs that got the weapon flexibility change do.

2-handed Enh was thing, except it was never viable in any shape or form.

Saying 2-handed Enh was a meme doesn't mean anything at all, because melee Hunter became a thing, which wasn't even a meme but a very early idea for Hunter that got scrapped very early in Vanilla.

So? Enhancement doesn't have an identity crisis, hunters had with 3 specs playing almost the same. It seems you're the dense one here

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No, until Wrath. It wasn't as good for PvE but the inherent burst in a 2h Stormstrike WF made it the only PvP choice. Look at a TBC talent calculator and tell me they didn't at all design it with both 2h and dual wield in mind.

They didn't? rofl. Literally everything in the enhancement shaman talent tree is for dualwielding, nothing for 2hand.

[Segus1992]

2-handed Enh was thing, except it was never viable in any shape or form.


So? Enhancement doesn't have an identity crisis, hunters had with 3 specs playing almost the same. It seems you're the dense one here

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They didn't? rofl. Literally everything in the enhancement shaman talent tree is for dualwielding, nothing for 2hand.

1. Is literally just wrong and should make you look like a moron even to yourself.

2. Melee Hunter was not the only option they could've gone with. They refered to the original design when they did it. Yes, Hunter needed spec identity that Shaman doesn't, what I'm comparing is their original presence in design.

3. Literally two connected talents are for dual wielding, the rest of the tree very intentionally affects both versions. They could've taken the Survival route and made most talents into range specific, but they didn't. The design of TBC Enh was to allow 2h to still be a thing.

None of this should be hard to understand.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I really don't see the problem of 2h enhanc, you guys are just annoying. Monk had passives to balance 2h and 1h, blizz can always bring something similar and adapt stuff.

[Kalarm]

No, until Wrath. It wasn't as good for PvE but the inherent burst in a 2h Stormstrike WF made it the only PvP choice. Look at a TBC talent calculator and tell me they didn't at all design it with both 2h and dual wield in mind.

Yeah ok I can see the old videos of mostly short burst of "LOOK ME DID BIG WF CRITS" but yeah... That won't ever come back. It was only a thing in PVP and even then I'm not sure it was that much better then DW. If anything, 2H enh just looks broken in BC PVP. Not as broken as vanilla, but still broken.

There is also 0 talents that promote using 2H... Like at all... If anything most of the talents were tuned toward hitting things a lot. Even stormstrike straight up says "both weapons".

I'd be down to learn that they found a neat way to make the spec 2H viable in shadowlands but BC -> WoD enh was never meant to 2H. Vanilla and BC 2h enh just looks really boring gameplay wise. I 1 shotted shit a ton in vanilla. Thank god as it was the only way to have any form of fun in BG's with our riddled with premades my server was. It was fun, but... It remains a broken gameplay that should not come back.

[Razgard]

Guys i think you mixed up some things:

2h was viable in vanila and possible until cata-wod (don't remember the expansion the option was removed). Even during TBC it was almost unheard of a shaman using 2h (even DW spell power weapons was more common).

Did they confirm SS will be a "builder" of LB/CL? We didn't quite run out of buttons before. It's only since legion that the only really interesting button is SS and crash lightning. I hope we get a more varied toolset of things we care about.

when they anounced MSW is comming back they made SS a "builder" since by nature the attack procs 2 attacks (MH & OH) that can proc MSW. Imagine that those chains of SS lead to more LB casts.

When they announced the maelstrom bar I honestly thought it was a way to fine tune the generation a bit more and that it would keep the instant LB/CL mechanic. Only that now they could micro tune things more and do it so that "Ok, so LB and CL will cost 50, healing spells will cost 40, hex will cost 20" etc etc. And instead of having just very random intervals of 20, you'd have a slow ramp-up with auto-attacks and bigger procs with WF. Just so they can fine tune those things as they want instead of being stuck in complete RNG of getting 5 charges while not removing the iconic RNG of the spec.

It probably was kind of what u describe here, although abit different. The removal of CL and LB was due to the flavor change to a more "elemental warrior" than someone using spells in melee. But they kept the part of instant casting (the reason we have instant cast HS using maelstorm and elemental does not).

I'm not sure for LL. I don't think they like buttons that are just fillers and beside, frost/flame shocks are probably going to be those fillers now. LL often had some utility / mechanic linked to it to make it interesting. We'll see what they do with it. In WoD it actually had priority over SS because it did decent DMG and could randomly reset.

Probable LL will fill the niche of a lower priority "builder". Imagine having lower cd than SS and lower dmg, you want to press it over another filler (since it can proc a MSW stack while flame shock and other spells cannot), but it will always be lower prio than SS (cause of the dmg and the double chance of MSW proc).

2X WF was bad in TBC. WF had an internal 3s CD, which means that your OH proccing it prevented your MH from proccing it. That's why WF + FT became a thing. Plus, I think blizz like the variety of it. Having to choose between FT or FB for your OH gave you... well options. Considering hailstorm is staying, I think that they are gonna prevent WF + WF from happening still.

Caught you here :-P.
You are right that it had a 3s ICD but it was still the best option to use 2x WF on 2 slow 1h (2.6s or more). There was even a graph that compared the Damage of speed and same DPS weapons for MH vs OH. It was in WotLK that they made WF & FT optimal (by making FT increase spell damage and later stacking the lava lash dmg)

[Grimbold21]

Those Fire related changes leads me to suggest that they'll retain what shamans have currently: a spec focused on SS & the (subpar) Lava Lash build

[Razaron]

Considering Enhancement has an ability that's specifically used with offhand, the chances are basically nil.

You mean a bit like you can't use Obliterate without having two 1-hand weapons equipped, yeah this sort of problem is very easy to fix.

No. 2 hand was a meme in classic and quickly phased out, why on earth would they let us have it

Except people played 2H enhance up to MoP, why? For fun. Fun is allowed you know? It's RPG and we still can actually equip the weapons just not use any abilities with them anymore. Was it as good as DW? Nope, no chance. But with the way they can balance things out these days it should be easier to do.

There's also a group of shaman players who are like, "It won't work!" but then of course it wouldn't work if they just simply added it to the current system in place. But that's the whole point of a rework, they told us time and time again that reworks happen at the start of expansions, so they really should of reworked it with two-hand in mind to begin with, especially if they're going to throw some love at to other specs too. With the way they deal with balancing these days they just slap aura's on things to buff or nerf damage. They should just do something similar with two-hand or even potentially make it a talent that -actually- brings a new dimension to the spec. Way too many talents are just cookie cutter options anyway.

[jzhbee]

Blizzard:

Please please please bring back flame shock spread/fire nova AoE
please please
do it blizzard
please

[lollerlaban]

1. Is literally just wrong and should make you look like a moron even to yourself.

2. Melee Hunter was not the only option they could've gone with. They refered to the original design when they did it. Yes, Hunter needed spec identity that Shaman doesn't, what I'm comparing is their original presence in design.

3. Literally two connected talents are for dual wielding, the rest of the tree very intentionally affects both versions. They could've taken the Survival route and made most talents into range specific, but they didn't. The design of TBC Enh was to allow 2h to still be a thing.

None of this should be hard to understand.

The talent tree was made around dual wield, open your eyes and keep this idiocy in check please.

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You mean a bit like you can't use Obliterate without having two 1-hand weapons equipped, yeah this sort of problem is very easy to fix.



Except people played 2H enhance up to MoP, why? For fun. Fun is allowed you know? It's RPG and we still can actually equip the weapons just not use any abilities with them anymore. Was it as good as DW? Nope, no chance. But with the way they can balance things out these days it should be easier to do.

There's also a group of shaman players who are like, "It won't work!" but then of course it wouldn't work if they just simply added it to the current system in place. But that's the whole point of a rework, they told us time and time again that reworks happen at the start of expansions, so they really should of reworked it with two-hand in mind to begin with, especially if they're going to throw some love at to other specs too. With the way they deal with balancing these days they just slap aura's on things to buff or nerf damage. They should just do something similar with two-hand or even potentially make it a talent that -actually- brings a new dimension to the spec. Way too many talents are just cookie cutter options anyway.

People did not play 2 handed enhancement up till MoP, this shitshow has got to stop.

[Razaron]

People did not play 2 handed enhancement up till MoP, this shitshow has got to stop.

Actually a very limited pool of people did, I didn't say it was big but it was still possible too.

Look we get your opinion, you think everyone is longing for a over exaggerated version of enhancement from a few vanilla videos in pvp. You maybe right for a few people, but that doesn't count for everyone. Many shaman players just want to be able to use two-handed weapons again because that's what they liked, these days weapons are more stat sticks and don't actually contribute to much of the damage. Also the way Blizzard buff and nerf specs is through blanket auras, I'm sure they could add a trait for shamans if they're DW or 2H to compromise for the lack of resource pooling and procs. It's not as impossible as you seem to be making out, actually, I'm wondering why you seem to be hellbent to oppose it?

[Nfinitii]

I can’t stand current enh.

I’m worried we will still end up with stormstrike spam. This will still kill the spec for me.

Also windfury, u don’t feel or see current windfury, I actually thought they removed it. This has been the iconic spell forever. Back in the day u could c a chunk of damage done when it procced as well as they sweet tornado around u. I rarely even c the current animation or c any damage coming from it. Bet most ppl wouldn’t even notice if they removed it.

I remain hopeful, blizzard does seem to be doing a lot of positive changes.

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The talent tree was made around dual wield, open your eyes and keep this idiocy in check please.

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People did not play 2 handed enhancement up till MoP, this shitshow has got to stop.

I messed around with it when I mained enh for fun. Would be cool if they tried to make it work like they r giving dks and monks the options for 1h and 2h

[Jotaux]

Legion beta was when I swapped from elemental to enhancement. I loved the playstyle, and even though I'm stuck playing elemental now I still do everything outside of raids as enhance. Aside from removing maelstrom, which you could mostly ignore anyways, I absolutely hate these changes.

[Lucavian]

Speaking of 2 handed enhancement, go to the changes datamined on WoWhead and you'll see the entries for Fury of Air and Crash Lightning have modications that includes notation for 2H and DW. Maybe 2 handed enhancement is coming afterall...Cyclone Strikes tooltip for windwalkers have the same type of notation.

[wushootaki]

These changes to maelstrom are wonderful. Bringing back the old maelstrom weapons is the heyday for dual-wield enhance! People forget we are a shaman first, and spec second. Elemental and Enhancement SHOULD share similar spells. For instance, a majority of wow both used Shocks, LB, and CL as their damage but for different reasons. The payoff for Enhance for the longest time was building to 5 stacks of maelstrom as fast as you could and unloading a point blank lightning bolt into the enemy's face from 2 feet away.

If they can find a way to mix that with the stormstrike proc spamn we currently have, I'll be happy.

Furthermore, Maelstrom Weapon Stacks are much better for PvP, as one of the biggest strengths of Enhancement during its heyday was the ability to self-sustain as long as it had something to hit, using those 5 stacks on big beefy self-heals.

Super excited!

I wish they'd take it a step further and give Enhancement earthquake on maelstrom weapons as well as their aoe, and crash lightning stay as cleave. While I did adore the shennanigans fire nova allowed for (solo farming trash packs in Cataclysm at level cap), it was always too clunky in its implementation.


Some Side Notes: If Blizzard really wanted Enhance to be 2h, Lava Lash could simply be turned into an animation of summoning a short range lava spray, or a floating lava hammer and do a % of your weapon dmg. It's an easier change than people think, but the issue becomes balancing everything else. This vision of enhance (maelstrom weapons) is about hitting as fast as you can and burning through those stacks to unload lightning bolts. It makes for some very interesting gearing choices (at least back in the day, when there were various BiS doing wonky things like trying to hard cap your white hits to get faster maelstrom, or running spellpower weapons with the old flametongue spellpower bonus.

Either way, the removal of the build/dump resource mechanic is a huge boon to Enhance, and I am excited to see how this will play out.

[Grimbold21]

Are there any shaman streamers with access to the alpha right now? Preferably enhancement

[Heph47]

This is however not a reason. Have you heard of Survival Hunters?

2H was never intended to be a thing, even in Vanilla. The fact it was never meant to be a thing is a very good reason to not bring it back - and eve using the phrase 'bring it back' gives it more legitimacy than it should have.

[Segus1992]

2H was never intended to be a thing, even in Vanilla. The fact it was never meant to be a thing is a very good reason to not bring it back - and eve using the phrase 'bring it back' gives it more legitimacy than it should have.

Never intended to be a thing? Except Enhancement in Vanilla is 100% about 2-handers, since it explicitly has a talent that allows you to equip 2-handers?

TBC Enhancement adds Dual Wield, but that and its followup are the only talents that specifically target Dual Wield. Everything else is clearly intended to allow 2-handers to remain.