Dear Blizzard; covenant spells will ruin the game

[Holdodlig]

Lol to use legion pvp as a good argument.... you could have picked any other expac but nope, you picked the worst pvp expac where they slowed down combat to the point of waiting for 80% dampening to win a match.

Legion was the closest example I could have taken. And obviously you don't have anything to say against this outside of "combats R 2 slow" when you whined before because you were worried about DH being able to finish you thank to a TP when you were not supposed to die in a previous expansion context. You're not even trying.

[Vyomesh2]

Dear players, if you aren't in the world first race, your choice of covenant won't matter.

I think there are fair criticisms of covenants; i.e. making players choose between aesthetics they prefer and abilities they prefer playing with, but in this case, I think the community is just going to drop the expectations that most people will min-max their covenant.

This is utter bullshit. Just wrong. These are entire abilities that will make or break your performance in certain areas. Being hardlocked into having amazing AoE or amazing Single target is bullshit and needs to be changed sooner than later. End of the discussion.

[Big Thanks]

This is utter bullshit. Just wrong. These are entire abilities that will make or break your performance in certain areas. Being hardlocked into having amazing AoE or amazing Single target is bullshit and needs to be changed sooner than later. End of the discussion.

No (imo)

This is a RPG
This is not a simulationcraft of DPS simulator simulator.

[Gestopft]

This is utter bullshit. Just wrong. These are entire abilities that will make or break your performance in certain areas. Being hardlocked into having amazing AoE or amazing Single target is bullshit and needs to be changed sooner than later. End of the discussion.

Covenants are an entire package of which the class ability is only part. Comparing just the abilities doesn't factor in the other (yet unknown) ways in which covenants will increase player power. Maybe a covenant with a strong AoE ability will have some good single-target soulbinds. We don't know yet.

Also, lots of abilities have more value in any content type than just the numbers on the Patchwerk sims.

[Gasparde]

Remember when the ‘main feature’ of the game was just the actual game? Because I do

Yea, me too. 15 years ago. When everything was new and most people haven't seen, let alone played, more than 1 game in their lives before. Yea, back then.
But I suppose there's many games out there that have managed to stay successful for 15+ years without steadily introducing new main features, probably a very common thing tbh.

[Synical123]

Yea, me too. 15 years ago. When everything was new and most people haven't seen, let alone played, more than 1 game in their lives before. Yea, back then.
But I suppose there's many games out there that have managed to stay successful for 15+ years without steadily introducing new main features, probably a very common thing tbh.

Name the main feature of tbc and wotlk. Go.

[FelPlague]

If you're a serious raider then choosing things based on aesthetics vs performance is stupid. So... there's that.

yeah nah mate, pretty decent into mythic, i will be doing just that, plus i run talents i like not the BEST

- - - Updated - - -

Name the main feature of tbc and wotlk. Go.

tbc, dailies and new races, classes being removed from faction lock, outland and new profession!

wotlk- northrend, vehicular combat, ariel pvp dogfights, hero class, dance studio, runecrafting, also another new profession.

[tyrlaan]

"Blood Elves will ruin the game, flying will ruin the game, death knights will ruin the game, Cataclysm will ruin the game, pandas will ruin the game, garrisons will ruin the game, artifacts will ruin the game, azerite will ruin the game"... Did I forget something?

Vulpera. Definitely Vuplera.

;-)

[Thetruth1400]

Yea, just lock the main feature of the game to the outside world. Who wouldn't want to buy an expansion where the main selling point of it is... getting something new for your world quest tours.

You and OP are both right and that's a fairly concerning thing.

The Covenant system is at least four layers deep and 100% will not be able to be balanced. As a player, you are then forced, and yes I mean actually forced, to take whatever is the best for what aspect you plan on playing if you want to be considered competitive and have the chance at doing the best.

In the example given by OP, DH are going to be a nightmare in PvP as even breaking LOS won't mean anything when they can literally just teleport to you regardless of LOS.

That aside, if they limit where / when the abilities actually can be used, they lose way too much importance of the choice you make.

[Synical123]

yeah nah mate, pretty decent into mythic, i will be doing just that, plus i run talents i like not the BEST

- - - Updated - - -



tbc, dailies and new races, classes being removed from faction lock, outland and new profession!

wotlk- northrend, vehicular combat, ariel pvp dogfights, hero class, dance studio, runecrafting, also another new profession.

Exactly my point lol

[Gasparde]

Name the main feature of tbc and wotlk. Go.

Oh, you mean the 2 expansions that came out 10 years ago when the game was still relatively new. I see. totally comparable to a game that's releasing its like 10th expansion in 2020.

Anyways, TBC gave us new races, previously inaccessible classes for the respective factions, fucking flying, a new profession and with it changes to item improvements, daily quests, and the minor feature of Arenas and dungeon difficulty settings. WotLK was actually a lot lighter, but even that one gave us features like the first ever new class, an achievement system and different raid size and difficulty settings. Oh, and Inscription and the Glyph system.

But yea, totally getting your point, basically exactly the same game as Classic.

[Synical123]

Oh, you mean the 2 expansions that came out 10 years ago when the game was still relatively new. I see. totally comparable to a game that's releasing its like 10th expansion in 2020.

Anyways, TBC gave us new races, previously inaccessible classes for the respective factions, fucking flying, a new profession and with it changes to item improvements, daily quests, and the minor feature of Arenas and dungeon difficulty settings. WotLK was actually a lot lighter, but even that one gave us features like the first ever new class, an achievement system and different raid size and difficulty settings. Oh, and Inscription and the Glyph system.

But yea, totally getting your point, basically exactly the same game as Classic.

You're totally right, if only we could have one of those older versions come back and be successful maybe I could disprove your point about it being 'new' that makes it good....

If only....we..had...that version...

[MrLachyG]

in reality: playerbase ruins the game. film at 11.

hahaha if even a quarter of the shitposters on mmo-c play the game I will eat my left shoe

[Gasparde]

You're totally right, if only we could have one of those older versions come back and be successful maybe I could disprove your point about it being 'new' that makes it good....

If only....we..had...that version...

Seriously, what are you even arguing for?

If you wanna play Classic go play fucking Classic. People playing Retail expect new expansions to bring new shit. No idea what Classic being a relatively popular game has got to do with this discussion at all.

[Synical123]

Seriously, what are you even arguing for?

If you wanna play Classic go play fucking Classic. People playing Retail expect new expansions to bring new shit. No idea what Classic being a relatively popular game has got to do with this discussion at all.

I'm just pointing out how the game could be improved friend. Instead of chasing the new 'main feature' BS we could actually advocate for change. I do love classic and I'm super hyped for tbc, but I would also like to see the main game improve to bring back the old players we know still pay attention to wow.

[Clozer]

Literally anyone who's somewhat competitive says that shit is stupid.

It will all come down to - ok this ability is best and 95% of players will pick that one. Then 2 months later patch day happens and everyone will switch to the new OP ability.

Just implement them as essence system replacement, where you can choose your ability of any covenant at any time - if you have unlocked it.

And only the cosmetic stuff is restricted to one - or it will be a complete shit show.

[Gasparde]

I'm just pointing out how the game could be improved friend.

You're not doing that though. Expansions have always been about adding new shit. That's not even a WoW thing, that's an every single game ever thing. People usually don't wanna spend 60 bucks... just to get what they already have.

TBC was full of new features, main features. As was WotLK. The pinnacle of WoWs subscriber numbers.

To argue that features are BS and ruin the game doesn't make any sense whatsoever since the game got the biggest it's ever been after it's first 2 new feature expansions. There was never a time where the game wasn't about new features. Even the oh-so-beloved Classic relies on regular content patches delivering new features to keep people engaged.

Features are change. And while some are only temporary, many others are not temporary and thus create permanent change. I have absolutely no idea what you're even arguing about other than 'Classic good, Retail bad'.

[Synical123]

You're not doing that though. Expansions have always been about adding new shit. That's not even a WoW thing, that's an every single game ever thing. People usually don't wanna spend 60 bucks... just to get what they already have.

TBC was full of new features, main features. As was WotLK. The pinnacle of WoWs subscriber numbers.

To argue that features are BS and ruin the game doesn't make any sense whatsoever since the game got the biggest it's ever been after it's first 2 new feature expansions. There was never a time where the game wasn't about new features. Even the oh-so-beloved Classic relies on regular content patches delivering new features to keep people engaged.

Features are change. And while some are only temporary, many others are not temporary and thus create permanent change. I have absolutely no idea what you're even arguing about other than 'Classic good, Retail bad'.

Never said features ruin the game. I said when that’s all you’re pushing for is this super cool and new thing and not trying to improve where the game has actual flaws then that becomes the issue. You seem a little sensitive to this subject and maybe that’s why you’re inferring too much and getting defensive friend. I’m making fun of the game, not you. Dont take it so personal

[Monster Hunter]

Covenant abilities seem to be a continuation of Blizzard's insistence that their game should not be "figured out" by simulations. Corrupted gear represented a window of this philosophy as even though there are bad, good and amazing Corruptions, there's no 100% best Corruption in all situations. These Covenant abilities seem to exist in a similar state. I see a lot of players complaining about how difficult the abilities will be to balance and that's just it -- I don't think they want to balance them. They want us, the player, to decide how we play and whatever perk we get is the perk we live with for the rest of the expansion. Will there be the top 1%ers who will reroll Covenants just for a single raid encounter? Sure. But I think Blizzard realizes this a fringe aspect of the population.

I don't know if I agree with this change in mentality by Blizzard but I certainly understand why it exists. The game is a whole lot more boring when there's only one best way to play it. /shrug

End of the day. Blizz found out where the road of hyper focus on balance, trying to make wow pvp an esport and catering to the needs of the 1% went and that was WoD. No matter what anyone's personal opinion of wod was and the class designs in wod, we all know what the majority reaction to wod and its class designs was. And this is why we have the SL approch and a move away from balance being the hyper focus and integral to the design of systems and more towards this as you put it complexity of many situational good options.

Does this mean the Op's concern is invalid? No, but the community has made its self clear to blizzard that it isn't willing to pay the price in class design and systems design that the kind of balance the op wants requires.

To the op all I can say is... Well tuff. Yea for a bit maybe demon hunters will be op or w/e with some x covenant ability. But that's why we have nurfs. No King rules forever and every rise precipitates a fall. This is going back to the old days, there will be times when certain classes are op in certain end game activity's, that may last for a few days, weeks or even a month or two. But nurfs do come. And any one picking the covenant based on it being OP at the start of SL will very likely find that blizzards nurf bat is oft over zelous in it application.

[goldentforce]

I've already made my statement on my pessimism towards the gameplay side of covenants but had an idea come to mind. If there was craftable legendaries that granted you the covenant ability of another faction would that be an acceptable improvement if the core idea of the system goes through. Could have the recipe earned from reps or achivements in the zone or once you complete your own covenant campaign or something. Would let players play with the cool abilities that covenants have made but still have the cost that you don't have it baseline and have to give up a legendary spot (assuming you can have like 2 legendaries or something).