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  1. #21
    Urg... they changed "fodder to the flame" necrolord covenant ability again , and it's the least interessting iteration yet . Probably better number wise but..." stand there for minus 10% damage taken" is ...very meh . Hoping they revert it or change it to something better gameplay wise .

  2. #22
    Eh there are worse ones. Don't forget it synergises with the necrolord absorb shield ability numbers-wise it's looking very strong for survival.

  3. #23
    Yeah , there is worse covenant abilities , but this current "fodder to the flame" is the worst of the 3 proposed this far .

    The first iteration reduced the cd of meta by 1 minute once you've consumed the soul , while also having the synergy with fleshcraft

    The second ( my personal favorite so far out the 3)transformed you into meta for 15 sec(havoc) or 10 sec (veng)after consuming the soul and having the synergy with fleshcraft

    This third is really uninteressting in comparison imo , just drop a pool that boost your attack speed(worthless) and reduce your damage taken( good number wise but lame gameplay wise) and have the synergy with fleshcraft

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    VDH is currently up there with the 2 Prot specs for being the most fun tanking specs in the game right now. BDK, Guardian and Brewmaster are all good specs but woefully boring to play. With Fel Devastation being made baseline giving VDH it's own eye beam the spec is only going to get more fun to play IMO. I don't see Blood getting that interesting, it really hasn't been an interesting spec since what like late MoP? Even when viable it's a snoozer.
    losing gluttony/td/vision of perfection seems like a horrible tradeoff for what its gaining. pretty much everything that lets veng compete with current tanks is going away in shadowlands. unless damage is ramped up somewhere , losing td is going to be brutal (no matter how rng its damage is)

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    losing gluttony/td/vision of perfection seems like a horrible tradeoff for what its gaining. pretty much everything that lets veng compete with current tanks is going away in shadowlands. unless damage is ramped up somewhere , losing td is going to be brutal (no matter how rng its damage is)
    Every other tank loses TD too and Veng is right now forced into VoP/Gluttony for survival when in fact without taking into account TD both are fucking MASSIVE dps losses. It seems you're more interested in keeping band aids then having actual solutions. TD is an unintentional band aids that makes a shitty build with no dps otherwise work.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Every other tank loses TD too and Veng is right now forced into VoP/Gluttony for survival when in fact without taking into account TD both are fucking MASSIVE dps losses. It seems you're more interested in keeping band aids then having actual solutions. TD is an unintentional band aids that makes a shitty build with no dps otherwise work.
    so, vengeance doesnt have a threat issue? because, yeah - they do. so does blood and guardian. losing td will certainly hurt them more than other tanks.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    so, vengeance doesnt have a threat issue? because, yeah - they do. so does blood and guardian. losing td will certainly hurt them more than other tanks.
    You are clearly not in the SL beta if you think threat is an issue. VDH damage is not a problem right now in SL alpha, survival is up for debate when more content actually comes out but DPS? You're worried about DPS and threat? When spirit bomb is damn near 1 shotting quest mobs you're worried about that? If anything VDH dps might need tuned down from where it currently is in SL cause I haven't really dived into every tank spec yet but VDH is by far ahead of the ones I have.

    And here you are worried about a damn RNG proc that may or may not proc and hold you aggro on a pull to pull basis? Kind of weird.

  8. #28
    Really fantastic. it seems it's worth dealign with it

  9. #29
    VDH will have the exact same problems it did in 8.0 unless they do more. Fel dev is a nice start but no way near enough.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jaksan View Post
    VDH will have the exact same problems it did in 8.0 unless they do more. Fel dev is a nice start but no way near enough.
    The problems from 8.0 no longer exist, and haven't existed for a few patches now. So not sure how you think they're going to magically come back when the only things VDH loses are things every tank spec loses and all of the actual changes to the spec grant more control over power instead of relying on it to be random.

    Fel Dev combined with options like Demonic and Bulwark now give you a very strong CD on a 1 min CD, to go with Fiery Brand already being a strong ST 1 min CD on top of Meta overall being one of the strongest tank CDs in the game and you're comparing it to 8.0 VDH that just had a shitty pre buff meta that was terrible and brand that only helps on 1 target? There is no comparison at all, it's laughable to even try and relate the 2.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-08-04 at 01:58 AM.

  11. #31
    Im pretty happy with the changes. Damage and survival wise I'm just hoping they dont end up nerfing us because you can do alot of crazy stuff in m+ in beta. Spirit bomb hits like a truck and heals therefore alot and if you have single target healer like monk or pala then its pretty simple and straight foward play there but since my healer is a resto druid I tend to run defensive builds and let me tell you, so far Im loving the brand build or Immo aura build as peeps call it. I dont remember the numbers at the moment but running around with a fel deva on 45 sec cd into 8 sec meta into Fiery brand spreading and you keeping it up while having a meta/BE on demand while taking into account healer external and your own spikes and Covenant ability's. Man I feel tanky, heck if shit hits the fan, you can just peace out but you dont feel the need to kite that often anymore. Running high keys as a veng you needed the last resort cause even if you didnt make a mistake, you could always have a downtime on def cds and just get killed but now on beta, you have tools to deal with that, you can plan and play better and so far, im loving it.

    We are pretty end of the stick at raids but I personally never cared for raids anymore since M+ came out so cant talk about that.

  12. #32
    I have the same complaint as before... all the improvements so far have been good, and Soul Cleave's low damage seems to be on their radar; but they haven't fixed or even mentioned the main problem: Our resource generation is messed up right now. We don't care about Pain/Fury at all, it's all about Souls, and souls are generated by the same abilities that generate Pain, causing some talent builds to literally completely ignore Pain Spenders in Favor of just generating as many souls as possible. It'd be a simple fix to make Shear/Fracture cost Fury and give us Demon's Bite. Re balance as necessary, but can we make the main rotation actually make logical sense, please?

    But... honestly, all the changes so far have been good.
    Orloth SilverEye
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  13. #33
    Doesnt our soul consumers most consume pain as well? Like yes you want souls but you also want pain to use sc, sb etc. Giving us a demons bite to spam for pain so we can spam shear for souls so we can spam sc to eat those souls makes no sense to me. Yes veng rota aint complicated and sometimes it feels like you lack a spell to press cause of empty gcd but overcomplicating makes it just harder to pay attention to the other things and as a tank spec, i rather pay attention to everywhere else than my "dps rota"

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force
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    I absolutely loved Veng. in Legion, but absolutely hated it in BFA. I really hope that Veng. will be as fun, or at least close to, in SL as it was in Legion.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  15. #35
    I miss the legion ability that gave us magic defensive, and then some agility boost based on how much magic damage you took during the buff.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Orloth View Post
    I have the same complaint as before... all the improvements so far have been good, and Soul Cleave's low damage seems to be on their radar; but they haven't fixed or even mentioned the main problem: Our resource generation is messed up right now. We don't care about Pain/Fury at all, it's all about Souls, and souls are generated by the same abilities that generate Pain, causing some talent builds to literally completely ignore Pain Spenders in Favor of just generating as many souls as possible. It'd be a simple fix to make Shear/Fracture cost Fury and give us Demon's Bite. Re balance as necessary, but can we make the main rotation actually make logical sense, please?

    But... honestly, all the changes so far have been good.
    Eh, Fury is a lot more meaningful in shadowlands because you can't just mindlessly spam your spenders when taking Fel Dev into account. Have to make sure you have 50 when it's coming off CD.

    My only problem with rotation is that feed the demon is a great defensive talent but VDH gameplay with shear is absolute trash. Fracture should be baseline.

    Biggest problem overall is sinful brand shits on every other covenant ability and I don't see that changing even with some tuning. The rest are just that bad. Sinful Brand has the same problems as typical with VDH, single target like fiery brand or only AoE with meta activation when you don't actually need the defensive benefit of it.

    If survival is not an issue(we'll see) VDH will be likely be broken for M+ the eye beam lego and sinful brand puts their AoE damage in a league above most other tank specs. For raiding, a lot of the typical VDH problems are still there.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-08-28 at 11:14 AM.

  17. #37
    Its dead on arrival.

    The spec has never been worse.

    They are trying to force soul cleave for one, we still have 2 stupid resources that dont work and in SL it really stands out.

    The bfa crutches are all gone with no replacement, fel dev on 45sec cd wont fix anything as proven by beta testers.

    The spec is squishy, aoe threat with target cap is bad enough but combined with resource issues its a hot mess.

    Anyone telling you its good isnt doing high keys or mythic raiding.

    If you just want a fun spec sure its "fine" but outside of that its currently woeful.

    The legendaries are almost all trash, you will be forced into magic damage reduction one anyway.

    Any top VDH player will tell you they are rolling BDK or Pally because as it currently stands its a flaming dumpster of a spec.

  18. #38
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    I like where it is going. Yes, i know, its still problematic as it is. But, I havent played since nazjatar, and dont plan on pushing mythic. That side is done for me, as life has finally caught up.

    What I think needs to happen is have feed the demon as our mastery (if they want to keep demon spikes at such a high cooldown). I like how they are trying to make spec differences , like fiery brand spec and immolation aura. The problem lies in spirit bomb, while a great talent and spell... its the only talent or spell you take for mythic+ and most raiding content. (Fiery brand seems to be for pushing content and immolation seems to be for high magic damage). Soul Cleave needs more damage (even after the buff) and if they want all the talents to "compete" then i think spirit bomb needs a cd that lasts almost as long as Fraility debuff. This way you are forced to use Soul Cleave, while simply keeping up the fraility debuff. (that or have it just replace soul cleave)

    Either fracture or Feed the demon need to baseline. I still dont understand why this hasnt happened. Everyone takes fracture.

    Demonic seems to be the best talent, even though I do like soul barrier. It seems to be either you want passive damage reductions (as long as u actually use soul cleave), turn into a demon and get lifty armor and health boost for 8 seconds (every 45 seconds), or another soul consumtion on 30 seconds (probably best for magic damage enemies and to not take Soul bomb as well). In most situations, it seems Demonic will be the clear winner. Its on demand meta for 8 seconds that can save the day, and then I also love the class aspect of the (h)demon hunter to weave into meta.

    Last row, there is no contest in that its last resort. Im surprised its still not baseline. Ruinious Bulwark seems to want you to use demonic as dps, but the shield will take maybe a single hit? Bulk extraction needs a lower cd inorder to be competive. Seriously, at least to 45 seconds, so even compete with ruinious bulwark.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeto View Post
    Its dead on arrival.
    Nah.

    The spec has never been worse.
    Nighthold era and BFA prior to meta buffs and essences was far, far worse then currently on beta. Not even fucking close.

    The spec is squishy, aoe threat with target cap is bad enough but combined with resource issues its a hot mess.
    aoe threat is less of an issue for VDH then other tank specs, fel dev is uncapped and you aren't going to be doing 6+ mob pulls often enough for the CD to be an issue there.

    Anyone telling you its good isnt doing high keys or mythic raiding.
    Actually I would say the spec is broken for keys on beta atm, and meh for raiding. By broken I mean stronger then it should be btw.

    The legendaries are almost all trash, you will be forced into magic damage reduction one anyway.
    They are mostly trash for every tank spec, not just VDH. Every tank spec has 1-2 viable choices and a bunch of garbage. Also no one uses the shitty magic DR lego in legion and that isn't going to change now, we will use the eye beam lego because the dps increase from it is massive(especially in M+) and none of the defensive ones are good enough to warrant losing said dps gain.

    Any top VDH player will tell you they are rolling BDK or Pally because as it currently stands its a flaming dumpster of a spec.
    Ah the bi yearly prot paladin hope, it's supposed to be super strong in every beta and always ends up being trash for most of an xpac after. Top kek, much lulz. If you really want to re-roll do it to a spec that is guaranteed to be good... looking at you monks. Monk's basically retain their BFA stagger and on top of it gain celestial brew which is basically WoD/MoP guard scaling with damage taken. But we'll pretend prot paladin will be good I guess and ignore the actual broken tank spec getting stronger...
    Last edited by Tech614; 2020-08-28 at 12:52 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Nah.



    Nighthold era and BFA prior to meta buffs and essences was far, far worse then currently on beta. Not even fucking close.



    aoe threat is less of an issue for VDH then other tank specs, fel dev is uncapped and you aren't going to be doing 6+ mob pulls often enough for the CD to be an issue there.



    Actually I would say the spec is broken for keys on beta atm, and meh for raiding. By broken I mean stronger then it should be btw.



    They are mostly trash for every tank spec, not just VDH. Every tank spec has 1-2 viable choices and a bunch of garbage. Also no one uses the shitty magic DR lego in legion and that isn't going to change now, we will use the eye beam lego because the dps increase from it is massive(especially in M+) and none of the defensive ones are good enough to warrant losing said dps gain.



    Ah the bi yearly prot paladin hope, it's supposed to be super strong in every beta and always ends up being trash for most of an xpac after. Top kek, much lulz. If you really want to re-roll do it to a spec that is guaranteed to be good... looking at you monks. Monk's basically retain their BFA stagger and on top of it gain celestial brew which is basically WoD/MoP guard scaling with damage taken. But we'll pretend prot paladin will be good I guess and ignore the actual broken tank spec getting stronger...
    You are obviously clueless.

    I was timing 20+ keys in NH timeline and VDH was far stronger then than any iteration of bfa.

    Legion was its best iteration by far. Not even essence and corruption comes close.

    In legion we had magic DR as a cd so cloak was meh. Current SL VDH is paper and you will be taking the damage mitigation from cloak for any real content.

    How you can say the current VDH on SL is good is beyond me and most people who have seriously played this class since legion.

    Just like it was a shitshow in bfa before essences its currently on track to be dumpster tier again.

    Doing some low keys on beta and thinking that means anything is funny.....wait till you have to take actual damage.

    Talent reshuffle = trash.

    Covenants = trash.

    They could have done many things to fix VDH but almost everything they did made it worse, not only that but they refuse to even look at how bad mastery currently is or deal with the pain/souls clusterfuck.

    There is a good reason that no one on youtube or twitch has had anything positive to say about VDH in SL.

    Even people like bellular say " i couldnt reccomend this spec to anyone" who doesnt even play the spec.

    Then you have players like Brujanna who are rerolling, players who pushed VDH to the limits in bfa even though it sucked because it sucks even harder in SL.

    Keep on shilling though

    Ps even sco says monk seems boring and not that strong , go figure.

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