Veng for Shadowlands thoughts?

[select20]

Coming back from an almost 18month break, give or take a few months. I mained a Paladin and War tanks for the most part during my time in this expac. Before that I played a DK almost exclusively.

While I have a DH at 120, I admit, I never really gave them a fair chance. I do remember the playstyle felt a little bland, but again, I only have a limited time playing them.

For you all that know the Veng spec pretty well, and possibly also play BDK's, where are you finding the most fun between these two and if I could ask why you prefer one over the other?

Also, how do you think each of these classes will fit in lore wise into the next expac?

Thanks, excited to be back.

[Tech614]

VDH is currently up there with the 2 Prot specs for being the most fun tanking specs in the game right now. BDK, Guardian and Brewmaster are all good specs but woefully boring to play. With Fel Devastation being made baseline giving VDH it's own eye beam the spec is only going to get more fun to play IMO. I don't see Blood getting that interesting, it really hasn't been an interesting spec since what like late MoP? Even when viable it's a snoozer.

[select20]

Sweet, exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I was afraid someone would see my question as a "which is most OP tank?" Or something like that.

Much appreciated it

[Rucati]

I really enjoy my DH tank, though I enjoyed it more when I could run Spirit Bomb. I think going forward it's going to be fun though, it sounds like they're adding a lot of new and interesting things to the spec and even though it's currently a little dull with the required build if they add some variety and more viable options I think it would be fantastic.

I don't tank much because my group needs my DPS for m+ since Havoc is pretty busted, but I get a tank a few m+ a week and it's always a lot of fun. I can't compare to DK because that's the only class I don't have at 120, but out of the tanks I have played Vengeance is still my favorite by a lot. They have quite a lot of utility and options with their movement and sigils, they're really tanky with high uptime on active mitigation along with passive magic damage reduction, and they can deal a fair amount of damage when they aren't forced into the Gluttony/VoP build like we are right now. So I expect the spec to be pretty strong in Shadowlands unless the tuning is way off, but it sounds like they'll be gaining some damage and variety without losing their tankiness or mobility, so should be solid I think.

[dcc626]

VDH is currently up there with the 2 Prot specs for being the most fun tanking specs in the game right now. BDK, Guardian and Brewmaster are all good specs but woefully boring to play. With Fel Devastation being made baseline giving VDH it's own eye beam the spec is only going to get more fun to play IMO. I don't see Blood getting that interesting, it really hasn't been an interesting spec since what like late MoP? Even when viable it's a snoozer.

yeah. shear sure is a fun button to press. repeatedly

[Tech614]

yeah. shear sure is a fun button to press. repeatedly

What a clueless comment since most VDH will not play with a shear spam build. Even in survival build with gluttony and VoP most still prefer to have fracture.

[catbellytrap]

Before DH tanking recently I mained both a guardian and prot warrior for raids and mythic+ at different points in BFA. My first thought picking up DH recently was "Where are all the buttons?" If you wanna soak a big hit you have a moderate, frequently available armor buff, and a massive CD that you can't use for another couple of minutes.

The options available to you feel very limiting at times compared to alternative tank specs and veng definitely suffered for hard content early in legion and BFA because of it. Artifacts, legendaries, and azerite traits that synergised with certain talents eventually filled some of those holes in later patches. It feels like Shadowlands is on track to be the same.

To me the changes lean slightly negative with the absence of az traits and gluttony, with a few welcome QoL improvements (45s cd on demon yay!). I'm hoping the covenant abilities can add back options to the class that it feels like its missing.

[Tech614]

Before DH tanking recently I mained both a guardian and prot warrior for raids and mythic+ at different points in BFA. My first thought picking up DH recently was "Where are all the buttons?" If you wanna soak a big hit you have a moderate, frequently available armor buff, and a massive CD that you can't use for another couple of minutes.

The options available to you feel very limiting at times compared to alternative tank specs and veng definitely suffered for hard content early in legion and BFA because of it. Artifacts, legendaries, and azerite traits that synergised with certain talents eventually filled some of those holes in later patches. It feels like Shadowlands is on track to be the same.

To me the changes lean slightly negative with the absence of az traits and gluttony, with a few welcome QoL improvements (45s cd on demon yay!). I'm hoping the covenant abilities can add back options to the class that it feels like its missing.

Demonic is an upgrade over gluttony because you can control it. Gluttony was trash for most of the xpac and only became relevant due to meta buffs and combined with VoP led to very high meta up time in M+. Gluttony remained trash for raiding though and only became a niche for high end M+ tanking. Hell without Twilight Devastation you could argue it would still be trash for M+ even.

Nothing was loss from Demonic replacing Gluttony, only things where gained. Fel Devastation being an on demand CD instead of a wasted talent spot is yet another CD back in control for VDH. I have no idea how on earth you think more was lost. Everything lost is either random shit(VoP, Gluttony) or azerite traits/essences(which literally every spec uses) Hell I guess VoP qualifies for both categories lmao. Meanwhile everything gained FD, Demonic, Ruinous Bulwark, Bulk Extraction are all full things you have control over. Also adds a DPS option to final talent row which we never had, also moved spirit bomb to a more dps centric talent row so you don't have to eat a massive dps loss for more survival etc.

The changes are way, way on the positive side of things. Both for how the spec will play and for having things in your control and not being reliant on random procs for optimal survival.

[catbellytrap]

Demonic is an upgrade over gluttony because you can control it. Gluttony was trash for most of the xpac and only became relevant due to meta buffs and combined with VoP led to very high meta up time in M+. Gluttony remained trash for raiding though and only became a niche for high end M+ tanking. Hell without Twilight Devastation you could argue it would still be trash for M+ even.

Nothing was loss from Demonic replacing Gluttony, only things where gained. Fel Devastation being an on demand CD instead of a wasted talent spot is yet another CD back in control for VDH. I have no idea how on earth you think more was lost. Everything lost is either random shit(VoP, Gluttony) or azerite traits/essences(which literally every spec uses) Hell I guess VoP qualifies for both categories lmao. Meanwhile everything gained FD, Demonic, Ruinous Bulwark, Bulk Extraction are all full things you have control over. Also adds a DPS option to final talent row which we never had, also moved spirit bomb to a more dps centric talent row so you don't have to eat a massive dps loss for more survival etc.

The changes are way, way on the positive side of things. Both for how the spec will play and for having things in your control and not being reliant on random procs for optimal survival.

Well, I hope you end up being right

[Zendhal The Black]

Veng lacks a big defensive button like Shield wall

Demon form is cool, but outside of that, veng in a healer mana sponge without armor

Brand is fine, but you smack it only on one enemy

I would allow Veng to use Blur and it would get the spec the needed big busty CD

[salate]

Veng lacks a big defensive button like Shield wall

Demon form is cool, but outside of that, veng in a healer mana sponge without armor

Brand is fine, but you smack it only on one enemy

I would allow Veng to use Blur and it would get the spec the needed big busty CD

I'd say we compensate it with high amount of healing, atleast thats how I felt always with our gameplay. Altho I really miss anti-magic brand we had in legion.
But have to admit, Didnt really tank on other classes, so cant say about shield walls and super mitigation buttons, WE JUST CAN FLY AWAY FOR A SECOND!

[Zendhal The Black]

Healing offsets the low base armor

Warrior for comparsion have shitload of base armor from passives (almost at same levels as other classes with AM up except guardian maybe)
Shield wall is 40% DR same as Brand but it works on everything (Brand have lower CD but Wall CD can be reduced by spending rage)
I would put Last Stand and Meta at same level... they both give you max HP and Meta gives you Armor (Last stand gives warr 100% block chance from talents), again, Last stand CD is reduced from talents (and they don't compete with any esential talents in that row unlike Veng)

That's basically it for Veng. On top of that Prot warr have Demo shout (20% DR) reduced CD by spending rage and spell reflect (30% magic DR)

I could add Ignore pain as absorb but that would be better off classified as sustain.


It's shame that Veng have clusterfuck of talents that competes each other in same rows. Some of them should be made passives nad it would improve the class to a good level

[Tech614]

Healing offsets the low base armor

Not exactly. VDH hps scales with damage taken, other tanks don't get more armor based on how much damage they take. Also VDH is absolutely not hurting for armor in the least, especially in a VoP/Gluttony build on live that has very high up time on meta. If you run this build you can almost always either be in meta or have DS up and either way you have an ass load of armor with either. VDH also has the highest passive magic mitigation of any tank. There is a reason VDH is seeing a lot more play right now in high end M+ then patch's before, they really aren't in a rough spot anymore and the shadowlands changes look to double down on positive changes.

[Venziir]

I really loved Veng. in Legion, but in BfA it felt slow, clunky and off mostly because of the lack of the artifact and its myriad of abilities. Hoping that it'll be fun in SL though!

[Orloth]

Not exactly. VDH hps scales with damage taken, other tanks don't get more armor based on how much damage they take.

Slight correction here. All % Mitigations are more effective the more damage is taken. 50% mitigation from armor, takes 50 from 100 damage, and 500 from 1000 damage, while Soul Cleave heals the same amount regardless. The "%damage taken over the last 5 seconds" mechanic that both DKs and DHs use, was meant to help keep healing as mitigation inline with armor and other %damage taken effects. Kind of like the old Vengeance mechanic back in MoP was supposed to.

100% agree with the rest of your post though.

[naeblis495]

i still don't understand why charred flesh still exist , it's a complete waste of space .

The new ruinous bulwark talent seems weak as hell , the healing of fel devastation isn't that good so boosting it by 15% is almost nothing . The overhealing converted into a shield part will never be used in difficult scenario because you will never be overhealed by fel devastation. Numbers will be numbers i guess but so far it stinks.

[Orloth]

Yeah, there are a few odd choices on the talent tree, still. But we are early enough in the Alpha/Beta cycle that numbers are nearly irrelevant. I wish they'd have shaken things up a bit more.

Like, if we're doing the class fantasy thing. I'd make Demon's Bite Class-wide and Shear/Fracture as a Class-wide Fury Spender (Closer to how it was late in Legion). Shear being only 10 Pain, has made Fracture feel almost mandatory through most of BfA, just to make the rotation not 4-5 Shears > Spirit Bomb (with IA, IS, and SoF on CD).

But even if we stay with the BfA setup, Demonic on its own adds a controllable major defensive on a short cooldown, which are tanking kit was severely missing. All and all it's looking good for us.

[naeblis495]

Yeah, there are a few odd choices on the talent tree, still. But we are early enough in the Alpha/Beta cycle that numbers are nearly irrelevant. I wish they'd have shaken things up a bit more.

Like, if we're doing the class fantasy thing. I'd make Demon's Bite Class-wide and Shear/Fracture as a Class-wide Fury Spender (Closer to how it was late in Legion). Shear being only 10 Pain, has made Fracture feel almost mandatory through most of BfA, just to make the rotation not 4-5 Shears > Spirit Bomb (with IA, IS, and SoF on CD).

But even if we stay with the BfA setup, Demonic on its own adds a controllable major defensive on a short cooldown, which are tanking kit was severely missing. All and all it's looking good for us.

I do agree on fracture feeling mandatory , spamming shear over and over is wreacking my fingers and i feel like i'm losing survivability if i ever stop spamming shear. Fracture give my finger time to rest and the time necessary to use other abilities while it's recharging. I can't play with shear at all anymore.

i do agree that demonic will feel better than glutony , that feeling of control over it coupled with a good aoe burst will make the vengeance dh feel quite fun , more than it already is anyway . I plan on going venthyr and Sinful Brand seems quite potent too in terms of damage and defensive. How do you feel the current convenant abilities compare to each other for veng ?

I wasn't feeling really concerned for the veng( i feel more concern about the flow of havoc) , i was just pointing some part that,imo, doesn't make sense as of right now .

[Orloth]

Sinful Brand and the Datamined Necrolord (Fodder to the Flame) are both good Defensive CDs. It will just depend on if they work on Bosses. The other two are 'meh damage', one with extra souls, and one with mobility.

BUT, The Covenant abilities shouldn't be chosen in isolation. The Soulbinds will add to it. Like one of the Venthyr Souldbinds turns their zone ability into a pretty good CD. And the Soulbinds aren't even half done in the datamining, so we can't really tell how that will turn out. So... it's too early to tell. I don't raid competitively, haven't in a Looooong time, so I'll be choosing Venthyr pretty much regardless of anything.

[Musta]

I miss Soul Carver so much....