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  1. #1

    shadowlands unpruning of rogues falls short

    how generous? three poisons counted as three base abilities which is actually only being brought back two specs, and one getting stun ability nerfed because getting kidney shot back = unpruned and reprune nerf, per spec additions rather lame. crime vial rogue i have to wait for or waste energy to use, to the point i rarely use it at all. curious now if assa rogues are keeping wound poison, if it gets ganked, then numbing = unpruned, wound gone = pruned nerf

    you can tell there is no focused DEVs anymore when it comes to rogues, blizz's unpruner is proving again what i always thought of him, which i can't say on this forums.

    i look at warrior unpruning, 11 abilities added back baseline, plus abilities to specs tells me there is a severe bias in Blizzard's DEV department gone wild even when looking at classes besides rogues, it's imo...criminal, but then you have to consider what the top WOW streamer/PVPers roll

    btw...i have a fury war now, the class imo is almost criminal, with so many abilities that are zero cost, ability to bloodthirst heal for something every 4.5 sec or less based on haste, anyone in a BG dies within 40 yards dies procs my victory rush, my warriors get to 25% HP hit enraged regen and can go back to 100% HP with ho healers, and no cost. on my FDK (no longer play in any spec) a heal that i have to wait or waste resources got nerfed, yet i go into BGs with my fury war into a BG, die less, and heal so much i'm behind healers, it's laughable to be #3, 4 healer in a BG as a melee. with in a charge and and first bloodthirst i have all the rage i need, always have something up, always something to do. i have this too with my mage, always something to do, barring mana, never see all abilities greyed out on wait like i do on my rogue, DK, hunter etc etc
    Last edited by pinkz; 2020-04-08 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #2
    I get this feeling they want to re-add sanguinary vein on rupture.. which is just.. AWFUL.

    Nightblade is already awful, but better, nightblade with 2pc nighthold set bonus was slightly better than that
    But having to keep refreshing a short duration bleed constantly to do damage just.. sucks, specially on cleave/aoe

    Not that covenant abilities wont break the entire thing, pvp or pve-wise, with random buffs and nerfs on top of them!..

    /rant

  3. #3
    covenant abilities are definitely a recipe for nightmares

    as for sanguinary vein, from a pvp perspective it should 100% return

    planning ahead and preparing a target for burst is a big part of subtlety pvp gameplay

    it looks like slice and dice is coming back as well (unfortunately without energetic recovery, from what we are seeing so far) so having both of those finishers to manage is definitely an improvement for subtlety pvp which sorely needs that rotational depth and resource management
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  4. #4
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    the only thing i give a fuck about them giving rogues back is burst of speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  5. #5
    New find weaknes confuse me. What's the poing of a debuff if its gonna be on target 100% of the time with zero effort.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkz View Post
    you can tell there is no focused DEVs anymore when it comes to rogues, blizz's unpruner is proving again what i always thought of him, which i can't say on this forums.
    100%. I always thought it was a joke how much Rogues were ignored by Blizzard.

    After that it was the little things - Like during Legion - You had the Order hall "Artful Dodging" set which they simply forgot to add for a few patches. There were pages of discussion of how to find the "mystery" everywhere. They'd forgotten to add a way to even get it and hadn't been following the Rogue discussions (there's STILL not even a source for the trousers of the set). Then you had our final tier raid set, which STILL are missing boots so there's no way to even finish the look. It's little things like that that make me wonder if there's ANYONE maining as Rogues over there.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2020-04-09 at 09:48 AM.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyarxadron View Post
    New find weaknes confuse me. What's the poing of a debuff if its gonna be on target 100% of the time with zero effort.
    Yeah it's the dumbest thing I've ever read and completely defeats the purpose of Find Weakness, which ties our burst damage to opening from STEALTH which is our core mechanic

    Any time you see changes like this it's further proof that the people designing this spec don't play it and don't know what they were doing (just look in Legion when they created gold traits that are actively counterproductive in PvP like shadow nova that breaks saps... nobody who plays the spec would EVER invent that ability)

    Then you consider the fact that both Celestalon and Sephuz used to work on Subtlety Rogues and both have moved to the Hearthstone team (good riddance though they were responsible for the worst iteration of our class ever) so we know for a fact it's somebody new and inexperienced
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Yeah it's the dumbest thing I've ever read and completely defeats the purpose of Find Weakness, which ties our burst damage to opening from STEALTH which is our core mechanic

    Any time you see changes like this it's further proof that the people designing this spec don't play it and don't know what they were doing (just look in Legion when they created gold traits that are actively counterproductive in PvP like shadow nova that breaks saps... nobody who plays the spec would EVER invent that ability)

    Then you consider the fact that both Celestalon and Sephuz used to work on Subtlety Rogues and both have moved to the Hearthstone team (good riddance though they were responsible for the worst iteration of our class ever) so we know for a fact it's somebody new and inexperienced
    they shoulld probably hire you. you have always seemed so level headed....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkz View Post
    how generous? three poisons counted as three base abilities which is actually only being brought back two specs, and one getting stun ability nerfed because getting kidney shot back = unpruned and reprune nerf, per spec additions rather lame. crime vial rogue i have to wait for or waste energy to use, to the point i rarely use it at all. curious now if assa rogues are keeping wound poison, if it gets ganked, then numbing = unpruned, wound gone = pruned nerf

    you can tell there is no focused DEVs anymore when it comes to rogues, blizz's unpruner is proving again what i always thought of him, which i can't say on this forums.

    i look at warrior unpruning, 11 abilities added back baseline, plus abilities to specs tells me there is a severe bias in Blizzard's DEV department gone wild even when looking at classes besides rogues, it's imo...criminal, but then you have to consider what the top WOW streamer/PVPers roll

    btw...i have a fury war now, the class imo is almost criminal, with so many abilities that are zero cost, ability to bloodthirst heal for something every 4.5 sec or less based on haste, anyone in a BG dies within 40 yards dies procs my victory rush, my warriors get to 25% HP hit enraged regen and can go back to 100% HP with ho healers, and no cost. on my FDK (no longer play in any spec) a heal that i have to wait or waste resources got nerfed, yet i go into BGs with my fury war into a BG, die less, and heal so much i'm behind healers, it's laughable to be #3, 4 healer in a BG as a melee. with in a charge and and first bloodthirst i have all the rage i need, always have something up, always something to do. i have this too with my mage, always something to do, barring mana, never see all abilities greyed out on wait like i do on my rogue, DK, hunter etc etc
    You base your happiness on the number of skills that get "unpruned"? That's a rather limited approach.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You base your happiness on the number of skills that get "unpruned"? That's a rather limited approach.
    If someone really liked the many buttons we lost in Legion (Shiv, Garrote, Gouge, Slice and Dice, Premeditation, Preparation, etc), and only a single one of those buttons is returning, why is it unreasonable to be disappointed that more of them are not coming back as well?

    It's not strictly about the number of buttons -- you're being extremely uncharitable in your reading.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    If someone really liked the many buttons we lost in Legion (Shiv, Garrote, Gouge, Slice and Dice, Premeditation, Preparation, etc), and only a single one of those buttons is returning, why is it unreasonable to be disappointed that more of them are not coming back as well?

    It's not strictly about the number of buttons -- you're being extremely uncharitable in your reading.
    That incoherent mess reads like, and i'm paraphrasing here, obviously:"Rogues gets only 4 skills, fury warrior gets 14, SAD!"
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    That incoherent mess reads like, and i'm paraphrasing here, obviously:"Rogues gets only 4 skills, fury warrior gets 14, SAD!"
    If you loved the old Rogue design and all the classic, timeless Rogue abilities it had, you too would be upset to see only a small number of them returning compared to the unpruning other classes are receiving. You can critique the OP's writing ability all you want but deliberately pretending that you don't see the underlying point doesn't add anything to the discussion.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  13. #13
    My underlying point is that this is not a return to a previous, defined state. Simply counting the number of button one class gets back tells us nothing about the actual changes in gameplay and fun. Not to mention the fact that this is not the final product but rather a first look.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    My underlying point is that this is not a return to a previous, defined state. Simply counting the number of button one class gets back tells us nothing about the actual changes in gameplay and fun. Not to mention the fact that this is not the final product but rather a first look.
    Well, we know feedback doesn't work so maybe it is final

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    My underlying point is that this is not a return to a previous, defined state. Simply counting the number of button one class gets back tells us nothing about the actual changes in gameplay and fun. Not to mention the fact that this is not the final product but rather a first look.
    My issue with the unpruning for rouges isn’t that we didn’t get 20 abilities back, but the few we got back are really boring and don’t add much.

  16. #16
    Every outlaw change seems either pointless or outright detrimental. Poisons will just nerf gouge again. Nothing to address the burst DPS still being missing since Legion (losing curse of the dreadblades, nerfing killing spree immensely, and making marked for death a talent) and cherry on top of splitting up kidney shot and the stun, so I don't get nearly as much uptime in my rotation of the 10% damage taken debuff on enemies.

    I can't see myself playing a rogue at all in shadowlands. I'll probably try the other specs again, give up, and go back to my monk. Freaking hell I hate abandoning my main I've had since classic just because Blizz are being idiots. It's not about having an army of alts, which I do, it's about that feeling of sunk cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  17. #17
    You mean everyone didn't want 50% snd for all specs and nerfing all the utility in someway but hey we got mind numbing poison....

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You base your happiness on the number of skills that get "unpruned"? That's a rather limited approach.
    you are reading into text, assuming my happiness? but i am fine playing a fury war, and arcane mage (get flamed for not being fire/frost)

    rogues have been over pruned, not just poisons. if you don't know...oops you might think i'm angry

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Poisons will just nerf gouge again.
    Only assa has deadly poison. Sub and Outlaw will get instant, crippling, wound and mindnumbing. If your instant dmg poison breaks gouge, you made an oopsie.

    The fw change to sub sounds indeed wierd. I could understand something like the first hit from stealth/dance applying it, but bs from back +crits and storm crits is wierd.

    I know you guys won't like it, but it's only the first round of alpha. Give good feedback, if you have alpha and worry when beta starts.

    Remember the legion alpha with shadowdance as a proc after a finisher?
    Dying could endanger your health!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Luhmina View Post
    I know you guys won't like it, but it's only the first round of alpha. Give good feedback, if you have alpha and worry when beta starts.

    Remember the legion alpha with shadowdance as a proc after a finisher?
    You just had me throw up in my mouth a little.
    Well, yeah, we have to wait and see. Still, quite curious as to whether the aforementioned rework of subtlety has been quietly swept under the rug, like with Shamans in 8.2.

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