1. #2841
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Appealing to morality is mute when the other guy sponsored the crime bill that destroyed many lives. The guy who was buddies with segregationists, the guy who more than ready to his hat in for the Iraq War, the guy who struck down same-sex marriage, he helped fuel the 80s War on Drugs that destroyed minority communities, the who signs a women protection act with one hand and gropes a woman with the other.

    Theres no moral argument in this election. Its sleazy guy in the red hat vs sleazy guy with the blue tie.
    This is why, as a Sanders supporter that spent months advocating for a Progressive candidate, this election is not about the next four years. Sanders didn't win...so...Medicare for All? Tackling concentrated corporate power? That other progressive stuff that Bernie stands for? Yeah, not going to happen within the next four years. It sucks. And I think the country will be worse off for it. But there is one candidate in 2020 that could make real Progressive systemic change practically impossible within our lifetimes. The other, while he won't do it himself, won't be nearly so hostile to it. Every time McConnell confirms one of "Trump's" judicial picks (as though he picks them himself lol), just imagine that it adds another four months until Medicare for All becomes possible. Or until Citizens United can be overturned. The next four years for Progressives don't matter in terms of achieving policy goals within that time span- but they absolutely do matter in terms of actually achieving them in the future. Biden might be crap. But Trump will destroy the federal governmental structures and the chance for a decent future in the way that Biden won't. And Biden won't veto the voting rights or campaign finance or minimum wage or other "step in the right direction" bills that Trump would if given the chance. Don't think about the next four years; think about the next twenty. Or more. Sure, Biden won't bring the broad systemic change that is needed, but if we can get anything in terms of (for example) voting rights, worker's rights, or campaign finance, that only makes a Progressive future more possible, even if the next four years won't be much to write home about.

    That said, there are reasons to think about the next four years. I don't consider this election "Trump versus Biden," but rather "Trump's maladministration of cronies, corruption, and incompetence" versus "Biden's administration of reasonably competent governance and unfortunately probably also some Wall Street goons." People are policy, and chances are that Biden can be pressured to put some reasonably Progressive people in his cabinet, and throughout his administration. Biden won't have an EPA director that denies climate science. He won't nominate a Labor Secretary that opposes the concept of a minimum wage and can't wait to replace his employees with robots. Or a batshit crazy neurosurgeon for HUD. His people will be materially better for the American people than Trump's cabinet, most of whom are corrupt and/or utterly opposed to the very mission of their agency. The "moral argument" for Biden has Jack. Fucking. Shit. To do with Biden himself, and everything to do with the ways that his administration wouldn't actively screw the American people and undercut science, the federal government, and democracy, and may occasionally actually help people.

    Also: remember why Trump is president. Mitch McConnell held a SCOTUS seat open and a bunch of Conservatives held their nose and voted for a narcissistic immoral moron because he would appoint a conservative judge. And be hostile to immigrants. The right wing threw away their values: that doesn't mean we have to, but we do have to win. Hold your nose, vote for (ugh) Joe Biden, and then hold him to a higher standard than Trump supporters hold Trump. And if you don't like Biden the man, keep in mind all of the real people that aren't going to be thrown off of SNAP or Medicaid, or the people that won't die during a pandemic because Biden will pay more attention to the experts, the immigrant children that won't be separated from their parents, the people that won't lose their voting rights, or the workers that will have an easier time unionizing, etc. etc. etc.

    And keep in mind that since Trump has done absolutely nothing to expand his base of support, his only play in 2020 is to depress Democratic turnout. Yeah, Biden sucks. The Democratic Establishment isn't great either. But they- even if for cynical reasons- support expanding voting rights. And reducing money in politics. And other reforms that will actually lead to a better future, even if that future isn't in the next four years. The way Trump wins again is by convincing people like me and you not to vote.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2020-05-04 at 08:03 AM.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  2. #2842
    Quote Originally Posted by Dathasplitha View Post
    Been hearing this crap all my life. If Biden wins the progressive wing of the party will go to sleep for four years because they "won", and Biden will do the bidding of corporations. Are you really so naive that you think Biden won't just do whatever people with money tell him like every "center-left" leader everywhere does? God it is like you people were all born yesterday. We went through all this with Clinton and Obama who were much more convincing as progressives before they sold out, Biden doesn't even bothering pretending.
    No Mr. Burner Account, there are no delusions here: that's why I explicitly stated "and then hold him to a higher standard." If you want my "credentials," I started the "hey maybe Joe Biden is a terrible candidate" thread before he even started running. I am no fan of Biden: so I'm not going to be "satisfied" with Biden, but I'm also not going to pretend that a) he won't be materially better than Trump for millions of my fellow citizens and b) he is going to be equally as destructive to the future of Progressive politics as another four year of Trump will be.

    Yes, Biden will be a disappointment. But Trump will (continue to) be a disaster. Neither will take on concentrated corporate power, but one will maintain a shitty status quo and the other will fortify the defenses of the billionaire class for a generation.

    Think twenty years in advance.
    Last edited by Gestopft; 2020-05-04 at 09:46 AM.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  3. #2843
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    No Mr. Burner Account, there are no delusions here: that's why I explicitly stated "and then hold him to a higher standard." If you want my "credentials," I started the "hey maybe Joe Biden is a terrible candidate" thread before he even started running. I am no fan of Biden: so I'm not going to be "satisfied" with Biden, but I'm also not going to pretend that a) he won't be materially better than Trump for millions of my fellow citizens and b) he is going to be equally as destructive to the future of Progressive politics as another four year of Trump will be.

    Yes, Biden will be a disappointment. But Trump will (continue to) be a disaster. Neither will take on concentrated corporate power, but one will maintain a shitty status quo and the other will fortify the defenses of the billionaire class for a generation.

    Think twenty years in advance.
    What about 8 years in advance?

    If Trump wins, it will be a shitshow for another 4 years and a new chance for some change afterwards.
    If Biden wins, he will most likely be reelected. And then in 8 years you will get the next Republican fascist. Most likely more intelligent than Trump (let's face it, dumber is not really possible) and then you will get damage. And this will most likely happen, because Americans...
    You can't go 2 steps to the right every 8 years and then stand still for "your" turn.

    I agree that Trump + McConnell would be devastating though. The SC is that important.

    So my wishes for the results of the election in order:
    1) Trump wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    2) Trump wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    3) Biden wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    4) Biden wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    5) Biden wins, House goes to the Dems
    6) Biden wins
    7) the rest

    So some of those are really unlikely. I don't see Dems losing the House. At all. So 2 and 4 and 6 are basically impossible.
    I don't see 1 tbf... so I most likely would vote Biden (if I could, can't, European), but my preferential result would actually be a constellation with Trump as president. Just a toothless Trump, who can't do anything. Except damage the GOP even more. That would be the best choice, if you really think long-term.
    (It can be damaging short-term, I know... but above I laid out the imo likely long-term scenario, if Biden wins... which could be even worse)

    Edit:
    Just to be clear, even if I think 1 could be a possible result, I would never never never ever vote for Trump. While I think 1 is the best scenario long-term, I could never vote for a fascist. Even when threatened with my life.
    Last edited by Inuyaki; 2020-05-04 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #2844
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    What about 8 years in advance?

    If Trump wins, it will be a shitshow for another 4 years and a new chance for some change afterwards.
    If Biden wins, he will most likely be reelected. And then in 8 years you will get the next Republican fascist. Most likely more intelligent than Trump (let's face it, dumber is not really possible) and then you will get damage. And this will most likely happen, because Americans...
    You can't go 2 steps to the right every 8 years and then stand still for "your" turn.

    I agree that Trump + McConnell would be devastating though. The SC is that important.

    So my wishes for the results of the election in order:
    1) Trump wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    2) Trump wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    3) Biden wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    4) Biden wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    5) Biden wins, House goes to the Dems
    6) Biden wins
    7) the rest

    So some of those are really unlikely. I don't see Dems losing the House. At all. So 2 and 4 and 6 are basically impossible.
    I don't see 1 tbf... so I most likely would vote Biden (if I could, can't, European), but my preferential result would actually be a constellation with Trump as president. Just a toothless Trump, who can't do anything. Except damage the GOP even more. That would be the best choice, if you really think long-term.
    (It can be damaging short-term, I know... but above I laid out the imo likely long-term scenario, if Biden wins... which could be even worse)

    Edit:
    Just to be clear, even if I think 1 could be a possible result, I would never never never ever vote for Trump. While I think 1 is the best scenario long-term, I could never vote for a fascist. Even when threatened with my life.
    How many Supreme Court picks do you think will come up in the next 4 years? There are always silver linings, but options 1 and 2 look pretty ugly and they are still wishful thinking, since it is questionable whether the democrats capture the Senate in this upcoming election.

  5. #2845
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    How many Supreme Court picks do you think will come up in the next 4 years? There are always silver linings, but options 1 and 2 look pretty ugly and they are still wishful thinking, since it is questionable whether the democrats capture the Senate in this upcoming election.
    Could be 2? Most likely 1. I don't think RBG will make it another 4 years
    That's why in all of those options the GOP does not get presidency AND senate.
    And yes, it's questionable that Dems get the senate, that's why I wrote "I don't see 1 tbf" and that only leaves 3 and 5. Or maybe only 5.

    If they get senate and presidency and 2 SC seats out of that, this could actually diminish the long-term damage I speculated about. At least if the judges are left enough to counter the newest additions and not some centrist bs picks.

  6. #2846
    This is 100% going to be a what have you done for me lately election. Both sides have shown where they stand on reopening the country. When states open and many already have, there will need to be a huge second wave before November of young person deaths. If they just continue in nursing homes and working class people are not as effected, Trump wins. Biden has made his view points clear he wants to remain closed. Whats his plan to restart the economy? Trumps plan is to reopen now and get the wheels rolling. We are 6 months away from the election. Now that im typing this ill need to look into which swing states are run by Democrat governors but this will be a huge selling point. This is where the election will be won. If some remain closed and some open it will be the turning point in the election.

  7. #2847
    Quote Originally Posted by Dathasplitha View Post
    I am. That's why I'm sick of electing pro-corporate centrists.

    How are you going to hold Biden to account? He's loyal to two things: his racist Dixiecrat base and corporate money. He doesn't care what you think. He can do what the fuck he likes. You have no leverage.

    How did electing Obama and Clinton work out? It didn't. You are banging your head against a brick wall.

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    You will always be given a choice between a monkey and an establishment politician in any control system which is threatened by the state. Last time people chose the monkey. That didn't work out.

    It is time to stop playing a rigged game.
    Or maybe now hear me out, progressivism just isnt that popular in the US. Now im sorry to be the one to tell you but most people are closer to the middle. Progressives arent even winning on their own side. It may just be time to accept that the country is more centered than you think, but by pushing progressive ideas all your doing is pushing the right further right and even your own side away. Your like that guy with a hot girlfriend, and you try to control her so she becomes more lile your nerdy self while all your doing is pushing her to the bar to sleep with everything that will buy her a drink.

  8. #2848
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    What about 8 years in advance?

    If Trump wins, it will be a shitshow for another 4 years and a new chance for some change afterwards.
    If Biden wins, he will most likely be reelected. And then in 8 years you will get the next Republican fascist. Most likely more intelligent than Trump (let's face it, dumber is not really possible) and then you will get damage. And this will most likely happen, because Americans...
    You can't go 2 steps to the right every 8 years and then stand still for "your" turn.

    I agree that Trump + McConnell would be devastating though. The SC is that important.

    So my wishes for the results of the election in order:
    1) Trump wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    2) Trump wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    3) Biden wins, Senate and House go to the Dems
    4) Biden wins, Senate goes to the Dems
    5) Biden wins, House goes to the Dems
    6) Biden wins
    7) the rest

    So some of those are really unlikely. I don't see Dems losing the House. At all. So 2 and 4 and 6 are basically impossible.
    I don't see 1 tbf... so I most likely would vote Biden (if I could, can't, European), but my preferential result would actually be a constellation with Trump as president. Just a toothless Trump, who can't do anything. Except damage the GOP even more. That would be the best choice, if you really think long-term.
    (It can be damaging short-term, I know... but above I laid out the imo likely long-term scenario, if Biden wins... which could be even worse)

    Edit:
    Just to be clear, even if I think 1 could be a possible result, I would never never never ever vote for Trump. While I think 1 is the best scenario long-term, I could never vote for a fascist. Even when threatened with my life.
    If you think there is merely another shitshow at stake, you have grossly misunderstood what's happening here. There is a president actively trying to destroy any semblance of a check on his power by Congress, or the courts, or system of laws--in other words, the foundational underpinnings of democracy--being abetted by the attorney general and the Supreme Court, and a Senate that tossed out 200-odd years of norms and rules governing things like the appointment of judges (including the shortening of debate on nominees from 30 hours to 2, Merrick Garland aside), churning out Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society picks to stack courts at every level, who will continue to rubber stamp Trump's policies, no matter how contrary they are to the spirit and letter of the Constitution, and irrespective of how transparently deceptive and changeable the administration's arguments are, on matters that will structurally box Democrats out of power for the foreseeable future, like voter suppression, gerrymandering, criminal justice (against, for poor people), public corruption (in favor, for rich people), etc., etc., etc. This isn't a, hey maybe in 4 years world anymore. Trump is a national emergency. He is an existential threat to democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Appealing to morality is mute when the other guy sponsored the crime bill that destroyed many lives. The guy who was buddies with segregationists, the guy who more than ready to his hat in for the Iraq War, the guy who struck down same-sex marriage, he helped fuel the 80s War on Drugs that destroyed minority communities, the who signs a women protection act with one hand and gropes a woman with the other.

    Theres no moral argument in this election. Its sleazy guy in the red hat vs sleazy guy with the blue tie.
    Including yours, btw. Sleazy guy in the red hat turned down free flu shots for detained migrant kids after 3 of them died and doctors begged the administration to let them provide and administer the shots at no cost. As long as you feel righteous, though--that's the important thing.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  9. #2849
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    If you think there is merely another shitshow at stake, you have grossly misunderstood what's happening here. There is a president actively trying to destroy any semblance of a check on his power by Congress, or the courts, or system of laws--in other words, the foundational underpinnings of democracy--being abetted by the attorney general and the Supreme Court, and a Senate that tossed out 200-odd years of norms and rules governing things like the appointment of judges (including the shortening of debate on nominees from 30 hours to 2, Merrick Garland aside), churning out Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society picks to stack courts at every level, who will continue to rubber stamp Trump's policies, no matter how contrary they are to the spirit and letter of the Constitution, and irrespective of how transparently deceptive and changeable the administration's arguments are, on matters that will structurally box Democrats out of power for the foreseeable future, like voter suppression, gerrymandering, criminal justice (against, for poor people), public corruption (in favor, for rich people), etc., etc., etc. This isn't a, hey maybe in 4 years world anymore. Trump is a national emergency. He is an existential threat to democracy.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Including yours, btw. Sleazy guy in the red hat turned down free flu shots for detained migrant kids after 3 of them died and doctors begged the administration to let them provide and administer the shots at no cost. As long as you feel righteous, though--that's the important thing.
    I just have to ask 1 question about the flu shot idea. Were they going to just force administer these shots or ask the parents? Because this is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen if you administer an elective procedure to a child without the parents consent. So this whole flu shot thing is moot because most of the parents came with no way to prove the child with them was theirs.

  10. #2850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dathasplitha View Post
    Been hearing this crap all my life. If Biden wins the progressive wing of the party will go to sleep for four years because they "won", and Biden will do the bidding of corporations. Are you really so naive that you think Biden won't just do whatever people with money tell him like every "center-left" leader everywhere does? God it is like you people were all born yesterday. We went through all this with Clinton and Obama who were much more convincing as progressives before they sold out, Biden doesn't even bothering pretending.

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    You keep saying this. The child cages existed under Obama. If you want to highlight a positive difference, say that there were no family separations. That is an important difference between the two. Every time you say there were no child cages you lose people who actually believe in the truth and check out the issue properly. Not only do you draw attention to the fact Obama had child cages, which is bad enough, you also create this impression that Biden supporters are dishonest and will use children in cages as a political football. Sure, most of your corporate democrat friends will not challenge you on this, but you are trying to win over people who aren't already Biden voters.
    Both Clinton and Obama appointed progressive SCOTUS judges, and hundreds of US Bar Assoc. Judges for the lower courts. The same cannot be said of Trump appointees. The Obama Administration had to create housing for the influx of unaccompanied minors that made the trek from Central America to our border, the Trump Administration is forcefully separating children from their families as a means to punish and traumatize.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  11. #2851
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    If you think there is merely another shitshow at stake, you have grossly misunderstood what's happening here. There is a president actively trying to destroy any semblance of a check on his power by Congress
    No, I have not misunderstood and I know of the missing checks. That's why I pointed out that it would be devastating if Trump and McConnell hat another 4 years and all options were a Trump win would be okay were always with the Senate going to Dems.
    He does not any checks, because the senate is not interested. I am well aware of that.

    Maybe reading my post would have been easier and less time consuming instead of just attacking me with a 500 word sentence.

  12. #2852
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Both Clinton and Obama appointed progressive SCOTUS judges, and hundreds of US Bar Assoc. Judges for the lower courts. The same cannot be said of Trump appointees. The Obama Administration had to create housing for the influx of unaccompanied minors that made the trek from Central America to our border, the Trump Administration is forcefully separating children from their families as a means to punish and traumatize.
    I can't see that person's post, but those are Republican talking points, which is to say, bullshit. Trump separated families as a matter of policy when they decided to refer 100% of border crossings for criminal prosecution, which, by malicious design, necessitated separating families. Obama detained kids when they were unaccompanied minors, or were otherwise thought to be in danger, not out of some carefully crafted malignant policy designed to psychically and permanently destroy families. Again, Trump turned down free flu shots after kids died--this isn't even about kids in cages; this is about willfully letting kids die as a calculated deterrence policy, with some run of mill sociopathy thrown in for good measure. Any attempt at a comparison is either grossly ignorant or grossly dishonest, and it hardly matters which.

    ETA quote for clarity
    Last edited by Levelfive; 2020-05-04 at 01:14 PM.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  13. #2853
    Oh, I forgot the most important part, why Trump president and Dems ruling House and Senate would be the best option.

    A real impeachment trial. Which would be devastating to the GOP for years to come. Then you can still have your Dem president a few months in

  14. #2854
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dathasplitha View Post
    You keep saying this. The child cages existed under Obama. If you want to highlight a positive difference, say that there were no family separations. That is an important difference between the two.
    How were they child cages under Obama, if it’s important to note there was no family separation?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  15. #2855
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I can't see that person's post, but those are Republican talking points, which is to say, bullshit. Trump separated families as a matter of policy when they decided to refer 100% of border crossings for criminal prosecution, which, by malicious design, necessitated separating families. Obama detained kids when they were unaccompanied minors, or were otherwise thought to be in danger, not out of some carefully crafted malignant policy designed to psychically and permanently destroy families. Again, Trump turned down free flu shots after kids died--this isn't even about kids in cages; this is about willfully letting kids die as a calculated deterrence policy, with some run of mill sociopathy thrown in for good measure. Any attempt at a comparison is either grossly ignorant or grossly dishonest, and it hardly matters which.
    Especially when we know that the whole thing was started by Trump, Sessions, and that white nationalist Stephen Miller. Obama only separated kids from their parents, if their parents were drug mules/dangerous criminals. Not separating ALL children from their parents, including infants.

  16. #2856
    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    No, I have not misunderstood and I know of the missing checks. That's why I pointed out that it would be devastating if Trump and McConnell hat another 4 years and all options were a Trump win would be okay were always with the Senate going to Dems.
    He does not any checks, because the senate is not interested. I am well aware of that.

    Maybe reading my post would have been easier and less time consuming instead of just attacking me with a 500 word sentence.
    For Christ's sake, "attacked." If you think we have time for 4 more years of Trump, you're mistaken.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  17. #2857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dathasplitha View Post
    One of the reasons I began to view centrists as the enemy was that these forums were overrun with people supporting the nazis after Charlottesville. The corporate democrats seem to be very quiet about all that. Now you all seem to be supporting an out and out segregationist.
    Your a Trump supporter that just claimed that Obama had child cages, without family separation.

    Officially about 43% of Republicans and 25% of Democrats have very old-fashioned attitudes towards race. I'm beginning to think a lot of that 25% is behind Biden.
    No, just you...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  18. #2858
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Especially when we know that the whole thing was started by Trump, Sessions, and that white nationalist Stephen Miller. Obama only separated kids from their parents, if their parents were drug mules/dangerous criminals. Not separating ALL children from their parents, including infants.
    Correct, and they crafted this policy with malice aforethought.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  19. #2859
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    No, I have not misunderstood and I know of the missing checks. That's why I pointed out that it would be devastating if Trump and McConnell hat another 4 years and all options were a Trump win would be okay were always with the Senate going to Dems.
    Can you explain how democrat senate, is going stop Trump’s executive orders and emergency declarations? Can you explain, why Trump wouldn’t veto funding for violence against women act, that GOP has blocked for over a year?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  20. #2860
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Correct, and they crafted this policy with malice aforethought.
    Yep, they thought it would deter people, and it had the opposite reaction.

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