1. #32001
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    I never had balls to begin with so your point about corporate donors cutting off my non-existant balls has no merit.
    Not you personally - I was referring to establishment Democrats.

    Also I have no idea why you would propose private insurance going away, we have universal healthcare here in Australia and you can still get private insurance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  2. #32002
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    Yesterday;

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Clyburn to Ocasio-Cortez: 'I don't get hung up on labels'

    In her New York Times interview, Ocasio-Cortez expressed doubts about remaining in politics due what she saw as a lack of support from the Democratic Party.

    "It's your own party thinking you're the enemy. When your own colleagues talk anonymously in the press and then turn around and say you're bad because you actually append your name to your opinion," she told the newspaper.

    Clyburn said on Sunday that being involved in the democratic process matters more than ascribing to any one political identity.

    Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-S.C.) on Sunday responded to an interview in which Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) alleged there is hostility to progressive ideas from Democratic members of Congress.

    "Sometimes I have real problems trying to figure out what progressive means," the House majority whip said during an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press."

    -----
    A lot of cross talk today... Just like what A few here have posted including myself...don't count on any big changes.

  3. #32003
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not you personally - I was referring to establishment Democrats.

    Also I have no idea why you would propose private insurance going away, we have universal healthcare here in Australia and you can still get private insurance.
    Sanders M4A plan is what M4A has transformed into. It eliminates private insurance. This is what the democrats that are being bandied about as winning support, not a reasonable public option.

  4. #32004
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I'm not convinced that the voters who turned out for Trump have a coherent justification for voting for him. He's a celebrity that appeals to low information voters and people who simply hate Democrats. Substitute Ted Cruz in his place and I don't think the turnout looks the same.

    I favor justice democrats more than the centrist dems, but if justice dems want more influence they have to build a broader base and win state seats, governorships, and house/senate seats. The DNC goes where the votes lead them and so far the votes are with Biden (the 2020 primary result should make this point quite clear).
    Centrist democrats did themselves no favors by coming out so hard against liberals so quickly. But currently they have enough power that they can afford the loss. All we can do for now is to suck it up.

    What you said is exactly correct. We need to build up our base, and this will take probably around a decade, maybe a BIT less.

  5. #32005
    Quote Originally Posted by Underverse View Post
    My guess is that 'defund the police' is the primary piece of rhetoric that lost moderate seats.
    I do think that is an example of horrible branding. Just call it "end police brutality" or something and it'd play a lot easier. So many idiots think "defund the police" means no more police, and the Republicans easily milk that ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #32006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not you personally - I was referring to establishment Democrats.

    Also I have no idea why you would propose private insurance going away, we have universal healthcare here in Australia and you can still get private insurance.
    Honestly, private insurance should go away. Insurance does not equal service and many people seem to conflate these. The entire insurance industry - as a mechanism for deciding who is reimbursed - can be replaced with a moderately reasonable phone app. The savings would be incredible once you trim away all of that fat.

  7. #32007
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I do think that is an example of horrible branding. Just call it "end police brutality" or something and it'd play a lot easier. So many idiots think "defund the police" means no more police, and the Republicans easily milk that ignorance.
    We just had an election that proves messaging and branding are more important than any policy.

    The reason everyone in the party is so fractious right now is because the DSA and Justice Dems are trying to use this election as proof their ideology is the correct path forward when running to the district or state is the correct answer.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2020-11-09 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #32008
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I do think that is an example of horrible branding. Just call it "end police brutality" or something and it'd play a lot easier. So many idiots think "defund the police" means no more police, and the Republicans easily milk that ignorance.
    Especially in more rural areas where any emergency services could take time to get.

  9. #32009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I do think that is an example of horrible branding. Just call it "end police brutality" or something and it'd play a lot easier. So many idiots think "defund the police" means no more police, and the Republicans easily milk that ignorance.
    Yes exactly. Really, really bad branding - criminally bad in many ways and I think it set the movement back a lot. But fine concept.

    Branding matters as much as the concept you're running with though and in this case, the fault lies with progressives for pushing that from the ground up. It should have immediately been rebranded by progressive leaders.

  10. #32010
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Sanders M4A plan is what M4A has transformed into. It eliminates private insurance. This is what the democrats that are being bandied about as winning support, not a reasonable public option.
    And yet Biden is going to struggle to get any kind of public option passed, and will probably content himself with trying to repair some of the damage Trump has done to Obamacare, leaving Americans no better off than they were four years ago.

    Why? Because Hillary tanked the 2016 election, and Biden barely scraped in in 2020, leaving you with at best a slender majority in the Senate (or just as likely, none), plus three Supreme Court seats taken from you. Both of those candidates ran on the establishment's brilliant plan, and look what it got you. It'll just be Obama all over again - promise hope and change, find yourself unable or unwilling to deliver it, lose your advantages in Congress in the midterms and be paralysed for the rest of your time in office. Fucking brilliant plan. Only Biden is nowhere near as popular as Obama and will struggle to make a second term, if he even lives that long.

    This genius plan of promising voters nothing leaves you treading water at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  11. #32011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    And yet Biden is going to struggle to get any kind of public option passed, and will probably content himself with trying to repair some of the damage Trump has done to Obamacare, leaving Americans no better off than they were four years ago.

    Why? Because Hillary tanked the 2016 election, and Biden barely scraped in in 2020, leaving you with at best a slender majority in the Senate (or just as likely, none), plus three Supreme Court seats taken from you. Both of those candidates ran on the establishment's brilliant plan, and look what it got you. It'll just be Obama all over again - promise hope and change, find yourself unable or unwilling to deliver it, lose your advantages in Congress in the midterms and be paralysed for the rest of your time in office. Fucking brilliant plan. Only Biden is nowhere near as popular as Obama and will struggle to make a second term, if he even lives that long.

    This genius plan of promising voters nothing leaves you treading water at best.
    Biden's strength is in compromise. Especially if the Senate stays red, that's what we'll need in order to get anything at all done.

    Depending on how the coronavirus pandemic turns out a few years from now, I can see Biden winning re-election. A vaccine will come out during his term and that will boost his chances. Incumbents also have an advantage, and there's a moderate chance that Republicans will put forward a more boring candidate that doesn't motivate the base to vote as much.

    Too many unknowns at this point but we'll see how things evolve. Biden is positioned well to be a good president for the nation regardless of how many progressive policies he's able to push through.

  12. #32012
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    And yet Biden is going to struggle to get any kind of public option passed, and will probably content himself with trying to repair some of the damage Trump has done to Obamacare, leaving Americans no better off than they were four years ago.

    Why? Because Hillary tanked the 2016 election, and Biden barely scraped in in 2020, leaving you with at best a slender majority in the Senate (or just as likely, none), plus three Supreme Court seats taken from you. Both of those candidates ran on the establishment's brilliant plan, and look what it got you. It'll just be Obama all over again - promise hope and change, find yourself unable or unwilling to deliver it, lose your advantages in Congress in the midterms and be paralysed for the rest of your time in office. Fucking brilliant plan. Only Biden is nowhere near as popular as Obama and will struggle to make a second term, if he even lives that long.

    This genius plan of promising voters nothing leaves you treading water at best.
    We have a ton of work to do in Georgia and in 2022 and beyond. I believe that's about messaging, which we're terrible at. Not our policies.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2020-11-09 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #32013
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    And yet Biden is going to struggle to get any kind of public option passed, and will probably content himself with trying to repair some of the damage Trump has done to Obamacare, leaving Americans no better off than they were four years ago.

    Why? Because Hillary tanked the 2016 election, and Biden barely scraped in in 2020, leaving you with at best a slender majority in the Senate (or just as likely, none), plus three Supreme Court seats taken from you. Both of those candidates ran on the establishment's brilliant plan, and look what it got you. It'll just be Obama all over again - promise hope and change, find yourself unable or unwilling to deliver it, lose your advantages in Congress in the midterms and be paralysed for the rest of your time in office. Fucking brilliant plan. Only Biden is nowhere near as popular as Obama and will struggle to make a second term, if he even lives that long.

    This genius plan of promising voters nothing leaves you treading water at best.
    All of this sounds wild when Biden won by 4+ million votes nationally and flipped red state strong holds like AZ, GA, and damn near flipped Texas. The American method of electing representatives and presidents is absolutely batshit insane.

    At the end of the day, the reality is that Democrats have to pander to rural voters and they're rarely rewarded for doing so. They would collapse as a party and never win another presidency again if they stopped pandering to them though (see Hillary's defeat in 2016).
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  14. #32014
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    All of this sounds wild when Biden won by 4+ million votes nationally and flipped red state strong holds like AZ, GA, and damn near flipped Texas. The American method of electing representatives and presidents is absolutely batshit insane.

    At the end of the day, the reality is that Democrats have to pander to rural voters and they're rarely rewarded for doing so. They would collapse as a party and never win another presidency again if they stopped pandering to them though (see Hillary's defeat in 2016).
    People also need to remember Trump is a turnout machine too...

    We don't know what turnout will look like in 2022, but I don't think R's turnout nearly as many lower propensity voters.

    Unfortunately the same thing goes for democrats too.

    We won in 2018 by running to the district, I don't know why people are so obsessed with running on messaging that's not broadly popular.

  15. #32015
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    People also need to remember Trump is a turnout machine too...

    We don't know what turnout will look like in 2022, but I don't think R's turnout nearly as many lower propensity voters.

    Unfortunately the same thing goes for democrats too.

    We won in 2018 by running to the district, I don't know why people are so obsessed with running on messaging that's not broadly popular.
    I'd have to go back and look at the numbers, but wasn't 2016 a low turnout year? I think turnout in 2020 has more to do with how easy it was to vote early, rather than Trumps ability to get people to the polls.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  16. #32016
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    This OP ED is an interesting take.

    Trump's lawsuits are good for American democracy

    "Ah, one of the rabid fanbase!"

    No no, the opposite.

    Citing an anonymous source, a reporter tweeted that the entire legal strategy is designed so the president can save face by claiming that the election was rigged. But if this is his plan, it’s likely to backfire. The legal proceedings will lend legitimacy to Biden’s victory, rather than support for a contrary narrative. Why not let him try? Of course, Trump can always attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the courts after the fact, but this would be an uphill battle, particularly given how many cases and courts are likely to be involved. And in the end, the election would look more legitimate and American institutions would emerge intact, if not stronger.

    President Trump has been accused of disrespecting the institutions of democracy in many ways, and perhaps this is part of an attempt to do the same, but he and his allies do appear to be using the courts in a traditional way. Judges, rules of evidence, and ethics rules governing lawyers who appear before the courts are working to ensure that the process is fair. Of course, it remains to be seen whether President Trump and his supporters will respect the results. We should pause nonetheless to note that it’s a good sign that they chose to use this all-American method of contesting the election rather than another, less democratic way.
    Basically, "Let him sue and lose, proving the election valid".

  17. #32017
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    May want to start with not disenfranchising the left ideas that are so popular it’ll just lead to an assured trumpy win in the future

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Underverse View Post
    Moderate seats are often more tenuous because they're in swing areas. Progressive seats are generally safe because they can only be elected in strongly Democrat leaning districts. Progressive rhetoric probably is affected moderates that hold swing seats, and it makes sense that progressives themselves would be safe even with this consideration.

    My guess is that 'defund the police' is the primary piece of rhetoric that lost moderate seats. M4A - maybe it's my own bias, but I feel that this is less contentious (I'm a full supporter).
    Progressives UNSEATED a number of moderates.

  18. #32018
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I'd have to go back and look at the numbers, but wasn't 2016 a low turnout year? I think turnout in 2020 has more to do with how easy it was to vote early, rather than Trumps ability to get people to the polls.
    It wasn't. It had higher turnout that every election since 1968. 2020 is the only election that blows things away.

  19. #32019
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    The NYTimes reports that Kushner called Rupert Murdoch to complain that FOX News called Arizona too quickly.

    "Everyone knows the NYTimes is fake news!"

    FOX News has already confirmed it.

    "Aww...wait, is Murdoch even in charge anymore?"

    I mean, we talking officially or unofficially? It's 100% who Trump had on speed-dial."

    "Isn't Rupert Murdoch worth like ten times what Trump is, and could crush him if sufficiently motivated?"

    Yes.

  20. #32020
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    We just had an election that proves messaging and branding are more important than any policy.

    The reason everyone in the party is so fractious right now is because the DSA and Justice Dems are trying to use this election as proof their ideology is the correct path forward when running to the district or state is the correct answer.
    Dude if messaging was important explain trump voters. Was his message not clear?

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