1. #33461
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Already see it happening:

    Yeah, that shit was all over my social media even on the day of the election. Almost exclusively posted by Trump supporters who could smell the blood in the water.

    My brother and I have been in an on-and-off argument all week because he keeps trying to make me the bad guy for not offering sympathy and understanding to Trump's crowd. The real bigots are the ones who won't forgive and forget my bigotry!

  2. #33462
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This election has show us something:

    Progressive ideas won out they either took moderate democrat seats and won or they won their reelections.

    Meanwhile... where are those moderate democrats those "anti m4a" democrats? those Trumpocrats? Losing.... that's where

    Yet people blame AOC and such for house losses when moderates who ran against something supported by 70%+ of the nation lost. This bullshit about compromise and unity is just that... fucking bullshit and I fear all those does is push away the left to court the Right who doesn't give a fuck. This will demoralise the lgbt and minority voters thereby suppressing their votes leading to another Trump era but probably with someone smarter.
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.

  3. #33463
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    There may be some merit to the digital organizing portion of what AOC was trying to say, but trying to force M4A will result in more lost elections. Every district is different and members need to run to the district. Running to the NYT to bash fellow democrats is the opposite of good strategy for actually maintaining your majority.
    Any healthcare care plan that can be challenged in Supreme Court, will fail. The current political landscape demands incrementalism, that cannot reach the top court. While fighting against the conservative narrative of M4A being the door way to Lenin and Trotsky. Until people make M4A so universally supported, that denying it in Supreme Court would destroy a political party, it simply can’t pass because of what happened the last 4 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    Embrace populism... they didn’t vote Trump, they voted for a populist that raised the stakes, beyond even the red scare.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  4. #33464
    Immortal PresidentGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    That's false.

    Connor Lamb won reelection in an R+3 district, Spanzberger won in a traditionally R+6 district. Kara Eastman lost her election in a D+10 district.

    The list people are throwing around paints a very misleading picture as the winners are all in safe blue districts that have been blue for ages where the losers are in traditional republican districts.

    There may be some merit to the digital organizing portion of what AOC was trying to say, but trying to force M4A will result in more lost elections. Every district is different and members need to run to the district. Running to the NYT to bash fellow democrats is the opposite of good strategy for actually maintaining your majority.
    One of the most misleading aspect of the “moderates vs. progressives” debate is that people are restricting the sample to incumbents instead of the entire pool of Democratic candidates.

    Here are the most cited tweets all restricting their sample to just Democratic incumbents.





    But just looking at this list, non-incumbent Justice Democrat-endorsed candidates went 2/4 in their elections.
    For candidates who did not primary an incumbent, they went 0/2.

    Two points;
    1. Their methodologies use tricky sample selection and identification strategies to advance an ideological claim.
    2. There's a reason that AoC had to dump Waleed from her campaign and why no other campaign has picked him up since... #meetoo
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
    -Lady Foppington

  5. #33465
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    70 million people voted Trump because of ignorance and being swayed by ridiculous arguments of "everything I don't like is socialism." The DNC seems to think that instead of educating and fighting back against bad arguments, it's better to just give up and let everyone die to shitty healthcare and shitty climate policies. This is what happens when power structures are more interested in keeping power than in actually doing good.

    They need to be reminded that it's not the policies people are afraid of. It's the messaging. The candidate who offered universal healthcare that would cover everyone, and that would be paid for by the government, was not the radical left wing candidate. It was Donald Trump in 2016.

  6. #33466
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    There is no bloody vaccine for the next 6 months.
    What you have are trials and even if a vaccine looks "100% promising" that won't be just announced for this year.
    Hey, let us inject hopium for a change
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  7. #33467
    Quote Originally Posted by passingthrew View Post
    I can only guess what this place was like four years ago. I bet trumpers were out in force.
    I mean, this place was a hive of looney incel wannabe fascists since Gamergate at the very least. The mods did nothing about it, in fact the extremely idiosyncratic forum policies outright encouraged them. They were posting their conspiracy theories and blatant bigotry for long before the election - I suppose after the election they were more smug about it, but they're such obnoxious douchebags it honestly wasn't much different from usual. When they transitioned from being bad losers to bad winners, they STILL liked to play the victim all the time, so it was basically just the same old shtick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #33468
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I mean it's just astonishing. The establishment Democrat lack of spine is legendary, but do they lack a brain too? The data is right in front of their fucking faces, there's no denying it this time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Let me ask you a question: if you don't even get universal healthcare out of it, which is literally just America catching up to where the rest of the civilised world was 60 years ago, why the fuck would anyone want the Democrats in power?

    Medicare for All polls at 69% for fuck's sake, once upon a time a number like that would have BOTH parties falling over each other to support it. There shouldn't even be a question about it being the Democrats' main platform. Somehow corporate donors have cut your balls off, fed them to you and brainwashed you into liking the taste.
    I never had balls to begin with so your point about corporate donors cutting off my non-existant balls has no merit.

    America is not the rest of the world and the stats you have on M4A is incorrect. You're throwing out 69% from a Hill/HarrisX survey where the question literally was would you support giving Medicare to Every American.

    When the question is asked and it's explained that private insurance would be going away, support for M4A drops precipitously.

    We saw this in the primary too, where voters overwhelmingly supported Pete and Biden's plans of a public option over Sanders and Warren's plan of eliminating private insurance.

  9. #33469
    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    It will really blow peoples' minds if the new administration prioritizes early vaccines for healthcare and food service workers. Then other essentials and at risk groups.
    I hope any administration on this fucking planet does this. I'd love to see my parents vaccinated months before i am.


    Question: Does anyone know what happened in the end in GA, PA, and AZ? What are the current vote counts there? I know that this is a purely academical question at this point, but still.
    Last edited by Thepersona; 2020-11-09 at 03:16 PM.
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  10. #33470
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This election has show us something:

    Progressive ideas won out they either took moderate democrat seats and won or they won their reelections.

    Meanwhile... where are those moderate democrats those "anti m4a" democrats? those Trumpocrats? Losing.... that's where

    Yet people blame AOC and such for house losses when moderates who ran against something supported by 70%+ of the nation lost. This bullshit about compromise and unity is just that... fucking bullshit and I fear all those does is push away the left to court the Right who doesn't give a fuck. This will demoralise the lgbt and minority voters thereby suppressing their votes leading to another Trump era but probably with someone smarter.
    Compromise and Unity won Joe Biden the White House. Now, I understand if Joe isn't the Democratic candidate you would have preferred...but he's certainly preferable to the alternative.

    If both sides of the democratic party can't learn the value that comes from unity...then 2024 is gonna be another win for Republicans. And this applies to both Moderates and Progressives. Progressives need to learn how to coax moderates over and moderates need to be willing to listen and embrace new ideas. If you try to yank the whole party Left...you'll just end up losing more of the middle.

    That being said, I do believe right now it is time that the moderates take the next step to further unify the party and start championing things like M4A.

  11. #33471
    The Lightbringer downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    I'm not convinced that the voters who turned out for Trump have a coherent justification for voting for him. He's a celebrity that appeals to low information voters and people who simply hate Democrats. Substitute Ted Cruz in his place and I don't think the turnout looks the same.

    I favor justice democrats more than the centrist dems, but if justice dems want more influence they have to build a broader base and win state seats, governorships, and house/senate seats. The DNC goes where the votes lead them and so far the votes are with Biden (the 2020 primary result should make this point quite clear).
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  12. #33472
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    70 million people voted Trump because of ignorance and being swayed by ridiculous arguments of "everything I don't like is socialism." The DNC seems to think that instead of educating and fighting back against bad arguments, it's better to just give up and let everyone die to shitty healthcare and shitty climate policies. This is what happens when power structures are more interested in keeping power than in actually doing good.

    They need to be reminded that it's not the policies people are afraid of. It's the messaging. The candidate who offered universal healthcare that would cover everyone, and that would be paid for by the government, was not the radical left wing candidate. It was Donald Trump in 2016.
    I think you skipped a step in your initial statement. There is a step before ‘everything I don’t like is socialism’, that defines socialism as an elitist coastal extreme left ideology aimed at distorting American values. You have to convince them that socialism is a populist economic policy, before convincing them that healthcare and enviornment is important. Defending individual policy, before socialism it self is no longer demonized, is puting the cart before the horse.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  13. #33473
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    That's false.

    Connor Lamb won reelection in an R+3 district, Spanzberger won in a traditionally R+6 district. Kara Eastman lost her election in a D+10 district.

    The list people are throwing around paints a very misleading picture as the winners are all in safe blue districts that have been blue for ages where the losers are in traditional republican districts.

    There may be some merit to the digital organizing portion of what AOC was trying to say, but trying to force M4A will result in more lost elections. Every district is different and members need to run to the district. Running to the NYT to bash fellow democrats is the opposite of good strategy for actually maintaining your majority.
    This is exactly what DNC democrats did as soon as the election was called. Not just the NYT either as I read several articles in several places that democrats put out blaming liberals for how close the election was. It's been a full court press that DNC democrats have waged against liberals.

    Right now enjoy your victories. You have all the cards at this time. We supported you, and you stabbed us hard in the back. And you'll get to gloat repeatedly as liberal democrats have to vote for DNC democratic proposals one after another. Already Biden forces are projecting a skinny stimulus package as their initial negotiating tactic vs McConnell.

    I guess your strategy will be to try to absolutely minimize the amount of federal money supporting middle class and working class people. Presumably just to stick it to the libs?

  14. #33474
    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    One of the most misleading aspect of the “moderates vs. progressives” debate is that people are restricting the sample to incumbents instead of the entire pool of Democratic candidates.

    Here are the most cited tweets all restricting their sample to just Democratic incumbents.





    But just looking at this list, non-incumbent Justice Democrat-endorsed candidates went 2/4 in their elections.
    For candidates who did not primary an incumbent, they went 0/2.

    Two points;
    1. Their methodologies use tricky sample selection and identification strategies to advance an ideological claim.
    2. There's a reason that AoC had to dump Waleed from her campaign and why no other campaign has picked him up since... #meetoo
    That's why I like this graphic much better. It shows more of a story of the district.

  15. #33475
    The Insane Underverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    This election has show us something:

    Progressive ideas won out they either took moderate democrat seats and won or they won their reelections.

    Meanwhile... where are those moderate democrats those "anti m4a" democrats? those Trumpocrats? Losing.... that's where

    Yet people blame AOC and such for house losses when moderates who ran against something supported by 70%+ of the nation lost. This bullshit about compromise and unity is just that... fucking bullshit and I fear all those does is push away the left to court the Right who doesn't give a fuck. This will demoralise the lgbt and minority voters thereby suppressing their votes leading to another Trump era but probably with someone smarter.
    Moderate seats are often more tenuous because they're in swing areas. Progressive seats are generally safe because they can only be elected in strongly Democrat leaning districts. Progressive rhetoric probably is affected moderates that hold swing seats, and it makes sense that progressives themselves would be safe even with this consideration.

    My guess is that 'defund the police' is the primary piece of rhetoric that lost moderate seats. M4A - maybe it's my own bias, but I feel that this is less contentious (I'm a full supporter).

  16. #33476
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    I never had balls to begin with so your point about corporate donors cutting off my non-existant balls has no merit.
    Not you personally - I was referring to establishment Democrats.

    Also I have no idea why you would propose private insurance going away, we have universal healthcare here in Australia and you can still get private insurance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #33477
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    It's discouraging that the DNC part of the democratic party went so anti-left so quickly. Apparently their goal is to snuff out any signs of leftness as soon as possible and with as much energy as possible. Apparently AOC has been getting a LOT of hostility from DNC democrats.

    With 70 million people voting for Trump, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do about it though.
    Yesterday;

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Clyburn to Ocasio-Cortez: 'I don't get hung up on labels'

    In her New York Times interview, Ocasio-Cortez expressed doubts about remaining in politics due what she saw as a lack of support from the Democratic Party.

    "It's your own party thinking you're the enemy. When your own colleagues talk anonymously in the press and then turn around and say you're bad because you actually append your name to your opinion," she told the newspaper.

    Clyburn said on Sunday that being involved in the democratic process matters more than ascribing to any one political identity.

    Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-S.C.) on Sunday responded to an interview in which Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) alleged there is hostility to progressive ideas from Democratic members of Congress.

    "Sometimes I have real problems trying to figure out what progressive means," the House majority whip said during an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press."

    -----
    A lot of cross talk today... Just like what A few here have posted including myself...don't count on any big changes.

  18. #33478
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not you personally - I was referring to establishment Democrats.

    Also I have no idea why you would propose private insurance going away, we have universal healthcare here in Australia and you can still get private insurance.
    Sanders M4A plan is what M4A has transformed into. It eliminates private insurance. This is what the democrats that are being bandied about as winning support, not a reasonable public option.

  19. #33479
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I'm not convinced that the voters who turned out for Trump have a coherent justification for voting for him. He's a celebrity that appeals to low information voters and people who simply hate Democrats. Substitute Ted Cruz in his place and I don't think the turnout looks the same.

    I favor justice democrats more than the centrist dems, but if justice dems want more influence they have to build a broader base and win state seats, governorships, and house/senate seats. The DNC goes where the votes lead them and so far the votes are with Biden (the 2020 primary result should make this point quite clear).
    Centrist democrats did themselves no favors by coming out so hard against liberals so quickly. But currently they have enough power that they can afford the loss. All we can do for now is to suck it up.

    What you said is exactly correct. We need to build up our base, and this will take probably around a decade, maybe a BIT less.

  20. #33480
    Quote Originally Posted by Underverse View Post
    My guess is that 'defund the police' is the primary piece of rhetoric that lost moderate seats.
    I do think that is an example of horrible branding. Just call it "end police brutality" or something and it'd play a lot easier. So many idiots think "defund the police" means no more police, and the Republicans easily milk that ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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