1. #34441
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    If I need to explain to you why the Democratic primary is not representative then I'm just wasting my time.
    My point wasn't just that Biden won Florida's delegates, my point is that it wasn't even close to being close. They (Florida democrats) played a big role in nominating Biden and he's the sort of Democrat that should appeal to a purple state. That he didn't win isn't all that surprising considering Dems had their clocks cleaned there in 2018. Obama won the state by less than 1% in 2016 and if you step back and look the big picture the state has only gone to democrats 3 times in the last 30 years and hasn't had a Democratic governor in over 20 years.

    Meanwhile Biden flipped Georgia, Arizona, won back the rust belt, and almost flipped Texas. Yeah, let's use Florida to argue Biden was somehow a bad choice in 2020.
    Last edited by downnola; 2020-11-18 at 06:56 PM.
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  2. #34442
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    So, when the actual trial starts, he'll claim there is evidence, and...try to hide behind the fact that he chose not to introduce any?

    Yeah, I fail to see how this is a winning strategy.
    I'm pretty sure I saw he claimed losing was part of their plan to get it before the Supreme Court. Feel free to take the word "plan" here as seriously as you like. They do seem to be aiming for the safe harbor deadline, and as I'm sure has been noted, DeSantis is trying to convince people in PA and MI to work their legislatures to appoint their own slate of electors. Plan, kitchen sink, tomato, tomahto.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  3. #34443
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    Nice, it's a big win for progressives. Having a leader pushing for Covid relief and Voting Rights.

    Really need those Georgia senate seats next.
    As ussual, you still have no idea what being progressive is actually about. She is not even in the progressive faction of the dems, how far off can you be?

  4. #34444
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    So, when the actual trial starts, he'll claim there is evidence, and...try to hide behind the fact that he chose not to introduce any?

    Yeah, I fail to see how this is a winning strategy.
    "We would have won, if the liberal leftist judge wouldn't have given us due process" - just already working on the narrative. Maybe that's why he's avoiding getting fired. Just blame it on the deep state and Trump buys it?

  5. #34445
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    DeSantis is trying to convince people in PA and MI to work their legislatures to appoint their own slate of electors.
    PA and MI both have Democratic governors who would veto anything of the sort, even if the GoP led legislatures dared.

    That's 100% a non-issue.

    EDIT: Ignoring, of course, the fact that even if the GoP was somehow able to swing PA and MI, the EC would still be 270-268 for Biden.
    Last edited by PhaelixWW; 2020-11-18 at 06:11 PM.


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  6. #34446
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    PA and MI both have Democratic governors who would veto anything of the sort, even if the GoP led legislatures dared.

    That's 100% a non-issue.

    EDIT: Ignoring, of course, the fact that even if the GoP was somehow able to swing PA and MI, the EC would still be 270-268 for Biden.
    I'm aware they have Democratic governors, and that it doesn't seem likely to work (though "100% non-issue" is a bit overconfident), hence why I referred to it as a "kitchen sink" effort.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  7. #34447
    I know it is fun to make jokes about Trump and to an extent his supporters. I do it all the time. However, the results of this election was actually rather disturbing.

    In 2016, 237 counties which voted for Obama ended up voting for Trump. In 2020, 77 counties flipped, and Biden won 59 of them. Democrats only regained a small fraction of the counties that they lost in 2016 election.

    How did Biden win? Metropolitan areas with high concentrations of Democrats voted for Biden at a much higher margin than they did for Clinton in 2016. Biden pretty much blew out the margins in the most populous suburbs also. Which got him Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia. In Texas Biden did better than Clinton had in 2016 in Dallas, Austin, Houston. He also won Tarrant County which had not voted for a Democratic presidential candidate since 1964. Quite an achievement.

    On the other hand, rural areas and places with high concentrations of white voters without college degrees went even more for Trump than they had in 2016. Also quite an achievement considering he won this core group by a record margin in 2016. Biden’s gain in Texas biggest counties were offset by Trump’s gain in South Texas counties and the increased turnout in more rural areas.

    There are exceptions to the urban/rural divide. Rural counties whose economy relies on tourism and tech (mainly in CA and CO) voted overwhelmingly for Biden.

    Trump won 2,497 counties and President-elect Joe Biden won only 477 counties. Since the electoral college system is heavily weighted toward the low population states, I think it will be harder for Democrats to win the presidency. The same with congressional seats. Looking at the map of voters’ margin shift, I am surprised that Democrats somehow still manage to maintain majority in the House. With the exception of the west and northeastern coastal states, the rest of the country looks like red tomato soup with sprinkling of blueberries. Unless Biden can make inroad into the rural areas with his policies in the next two years, realistically, 2022 and 2024 elections will be tough for Democrats.

    On the other hand, in the long run, Republicans are in a tough spot also. Biden’s 477 counties represent 71% of US GDP (up from 64% US GDP of Clinton counties) and growing job market. Out of 100 US counties with the largest economy, only 5 voted GOP. A record low. The population in Biden’s counties is growing while Trump’s counties is on the decline. The industries supported by the GOP are on major decline worsened by the pandemic. Job market and economy in the rural counties have never been worse. You can’t keep winning votes on empty promises and grievances. At some point, you actually have to produce results.

  8. #34448
    https://www.businessinsider.com/mark...ration-2020-11

    Oh boy, and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is now openly signaling that there might be a government shutdown next month.

    Because that's what you want in the middle of a pandemic, when you have a lame-duck administration and a desperate need for stimulus that the Republican party has refused to take seriously.

    The Republican party is the anti-American party and just wants to see people suffer at this point.

  9. #34449
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    That implies that it's actually stopped playing any time in the last few weeks (if not longer).
    At this point it sounds more like Flight of the Bumblebee.


  10. #34450
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I know it is fun to make jokes about Trump and to an extent his supporters. I do it all the time. However, the results of this election was actually rather disturbing.

    In 2016, 237 counties which voted for Obama ended up voting for Trump.
    Stop here.
    Please insert a serious talk about the massive Gerrymandering that occured in 2010. Also the gutting of the Voter Rights Act in 2013.
    It's not helpful to gloss over this highly important shit that occured between 2008 and 2016.
    It's like a civil engineer overlooking a massive sinkhole.

    Also, these structural problems persist in the year 2020. So "winning back those counties", will always be difficult until gerrymandering and the VRA are fixed.
    Government Affiliated Snark

  11. #34451
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I know it is fun to make jokes about Trump and to an extent his supporters. I do it all the time. However, the results of this election was actually rather disturbing.

    In 2016, 237 counties which voted for Obama ended up voting for Trump. In 2020, 77 counties flipped, and Biden won 59 of them. Democrats only regained a small fraction of the counties that they lost in 2016 election.

    How did Biden win? Metropolitan areas with high concentrations of Democrats voted for Biden at a much higher margin than they did for Clinton in 2016. Biden pretty much blew out the margins in the most populous suburbs also. Which got him Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia. In Texas Biden did better than Clinton had in 2016 in Dallas, Austin, Houston. He also won Tarrant County which had not voted for a Democratic presidential candidate since 1964. Quite an achievement.

    On the other hand, rural areas and places with high concentrations of white voters without college degrees went even more for Trump than they had in 2016. Also quite an achievement considering he won this core group by a record margin in 2016. Biden’s gain in Texas biggest counties were offset by Trump’s gain in South Texas counties and the increased turnout in more rural areas.

    There are exceptions to the urban/rural divide. Rural counties whose economy relies on tourism and tech (mainly in CA and CO) voted overwhelmingly for Biden.

    Trump won 2,497 counties and President-elect Joe Biden won only 477 counties. Since the electoral college system is heavily weighted toward the low population states, I think it will be harder for Democrats to win the presidency. The same with congressional seats. Looking at the map of voters’ margin shift, I am surprised that Democrats somehow still manage to maintain majority in the House. With the exception of the west and northeastern coastal states, the rest of the country looks like red tomato soup with sprinkling of blueberries. Unless Biden can make inroad into the rural areas with his policies in the next two years, realistically, 2022 and 2024 elections will be tough for Democrats.

    On the other hand, in the long run, Republicans are in a tough spot also. Biden’s 477 counties represent 71% of US GDP (up from 64% US GDP of Clinton counties) and growing job market. Out of 100 US counties with the largest economy, only 5 voted GOP. A record low. The population in Biden’s counties is growing while Trump’s counties is on the decline. The industries supported by the GOP are on major decline worsened by the pandemic. Job market and economy in the rural counties have never been worse. You can’t keep winning votes on empty promises and grievances. At some point, you actually have to produce results.
    This isn't actually the case.

    When you look at where Biden won, and how he won, this poses a new problem for Republicans. Democrats gained ground in states that were only a pipe dream a couple years ago. The GOP has long managed to win the close races in battleground states, but the maps are redrawn. Georgia is a legitimate battleground, as is Arizona. The Democrats are broadening their base, winning middle-class whites and suburbanites, and pushing out from the urban centers.

    The suburbs are growing, and they are becoming more culturally diverse. Diversity, especially peaceful diversity plays right into the Democrats' hand.

    Sure, the GOP gained ground among Latinos in Florida, and even a bit in Texas. But, the Democrats can sacrifice Florida, because it was never really theirs to begin with, and they can focus elsewhere. Texas was within 6 points, that's a 10-point shift in a single election cycle.

    Virginia is solidly blue, when it was purple, and red before that.

    Colorado is reliably blue, and that is huge, considering the makeup up the state.

    The Dems need to rebuild their position in the rust belt, continue appealing to the socially-liberal beliefs of suburbanites, and push honor, honest work, and respect towards Latino voters, and they will be just fine.

  12. #34452
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Meanwhile Biden flipped Georgia, Arizona, won back the rust belt, and almost flipped Texas. Yeah, let's use Florida to argue Biden was somehow a bad choice in 2020.
    I also think it's a bad argument to say he was a bad choice when he won even though the GOP ALSO had a record turnout. So not only did Biden have to do better than Clinton, he also had to do better than Obama. If the GOP votes were the same level as they were in previous elections it would have been more of a blowout. The Democrats did a great job at getting people to come out to vote--but Trump also whipped his base up into a frenzy while the GOP's honed disinformation campaign chugged at full speed.

  13. #34453
    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    Stop here.
    Please insert a serious talk about the massive Gerrymandering that occured in 2010. Also the gutting of the Voter Rights Act in 2013.
    It's not helpful to gloss over this highly important shit that occured between 2008 and 2016.
    It's like a civil engineer overlooking a massive sinkhole.

    Also, these structural problems persist in the year 2020. So "winning back those counties", will always be difficult until gerrymandering and the VRA are fixed.
    Without at least winning those counties back first, Democrats have no chance of reversing gerrymandering and restoring VRA. So it is a moot point. Democrats have to win with the hand that they have now to make any significant changes.

  14. #34454
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Without at least winning those counties back first, Democrats have no chance of reversing gerrymandering and restoring VRA. So it is a moot point. Democrats have to win with the hand that they have now to make any significant changes.
    Omitting the structural advantages from the discourse doesn't help though.

    If anything, highlighting the problems of voter suppression seems to have energized a lot of voter. In Georgia for example. Winning those two senate will allow for the restoration of the VRA.
    Winning those two senate seats also means that the 50 Democratic senators will represent about 40 million more people than the 50 GOP senators.

    I just dont see the point of talking about the electorate in terms of counties.
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  15. #34455
    Pandaren Monk wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post

    On the other hand, in the long run, Republicans are in a tough spot also. Biden’s 477 counties represent 71% of US GDP (up from 64% US GDP of Clinton counties) and growing job market. Out of 100 US counties with the largest economy, only 5 voted GOP. A record low. The population in Biden’s counties is growing while Trump’s counties is on the decline. The industries supported by the GOP are on major decline worsened by the pandemic. Job market and economy in the rural counties have never been worse. You can’t keep winning votes on empty promises and grievances. At some point, you actually have to produce results.
    This is what many others have been saying for a long time. The Republicans are becoming marginalized and relying on gerrymandering as well as blocking voters is the only way they can stay relevant.

    I think the big question is can Democrats keep the momentum and have a similar turnout in 2022.

  16. #34456
    the election is rigged
    if you are a trump supporter in georgia, please do not vote january 5th, it is rigged and the deep state will win anyways, show your dissaproval by staying home!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    This is what many others have been saying for a long time. The Republicans are becoming marginalized and relying on gerrymandering as well as blocking voters is the only way they can stay relevant.

    I think the big question is can Democrats keep the momentum and have a similar turnout in 2022.
    it just sucks because dems are the only party in between fascism
    and you have people like in south texas and florida who wont vote for dem because they say "latinx" or are pro trans rights, so it seems like in the struggle between woke or fascism the population will just choose fascism, which to me is ultimately worst, but given thats what we learned from this election i have no hope of democracy surviving 2024 don jr or tucker carlsons presidency

  17. #34457
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I also think it's a bad argument to say he was a bad choice when he won even though the GOP ALSO had a record turnout. So not only did Biden have to do better than Clinton, he also had to do better than Obama. If the GOP votes were the same level as they were in previous elections it would have been more of a blowout. The Democrats did a great job at getting people to come out to vote--but Trump also whipped his base up into a frenzy while the GOP's honed disinformation campaign chugged at full speed.
    I personally suspect that a major reason for the Republican turnout and why the polls where so off was in response to Democratic early turnout. Even pure red states had a higher turnout in 2020 than in 2016 from both parties.

    Look at Texas for example, when the news started reporting that 2020 early turnout was more than 2016 that news probably spooked the Trump campaign and it's voters.

    What we have seen is probably the absolute highest turnout possible for maybe both sides. Frankly I believe that Democrats can still win over Republican voters (the 1 or 2% non crazies) then Republicans trying to win over Democratic voters.

  18. #34458
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    SNIP

    On the other hand, rural areas and places with high concentrations of white voters without college degrees went even more for Trump than they had in 2016. Also quite an achievement considering he won this core group by a record margin in 2016. Biden’s gain in Texas biggest counties were offset by Trump’s gain in South Texas counties and the increased turnout in more rural areas.

    There are exceptions to the urban/rural divide. Rural counties whose economy relies on tourism and tech (mainly in CA and CO) voted overwhelmingly for Biden.

    Trump won 2,497 counties and President-elect Joe Biden won only 477 counties. Since the electoral college system is heavily weighted toward the low population states, I think it will be harder for Democrats to win the presidency. The same with congressional seats. Looking at the map of voters’ margin shift, I am surprised that Democrats somehow still manage to maintain majority in the House. With the exception of the west and northeastern coastal states, the rest of the country looks like red tomato soup with sprinkling of blueberries. Unless Biden can make inroad into the rural areas with his policies in the next two years, realistically, 2022 and 2024 elections will be tough for Democrats.

    On the other hand, in the long run, Republicans are in a tough spot also. Biden’s 477 counties represent 71% of US GDP (up from 64% US GDP of Clinton counties) and growing job market. Out of 100 US counties with the largest economy, only 5 voted GOP. A record low. The population in Biden’s counties is growing while Trump’s counties is on the decline. The industries supported by the GOP are on major decline worsened by the pandemic. Job market and economy in the rural counties have never been worse. You can’t keep winning votes on empty promises and grievances. At some point, you actually have to produce results.
    The saddest part of this, those uneducated folk in the half empty 2497 counties will continue to ask why those "liberal elites" should run the country and get their fair share of voting power.

    Imagine if those 2497 counties had even half the growth and production of the 477 how much more MAGA this country would be.

    They are just going to have to continue to throw trillions at this uneducated population to keep them happy even though the return on the investment is poor.
    I gander to bet that the tax tables will show the same level of taxes paid by those in the 477 counties

    Those 2497 counties will continue to get their 60-65-75% Medicaid funding while the 477 get 50%
    They will get their 101 billion in farm socialist payments on top of the 400 billion dollar farm subsidies each year.
    They will continue to get their 2-3 dollars of federal payments/investments to every dollar paid in taxes while those 477 don't even get a full dollar back.
    etc, etc, etc


    and even after all this happens and more in the next 4 years, they will still vote republican....and fear socialism..
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  19. #34459
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    I know it is fun to make jokes about Trump and to an extent his supporters. I do it all the time. However, the results of this election was actually rather disturbing.

    In 2016, 237 counties which voted for Obama ended up voting for Trump. In 2020, 77 counties flipped, and Biden won 59 of them. Democrats only regained a small fraction of the counties that they lost in 2016 election.
    Stop here.
    Please insert a serious talk about the massive Gerrymandering that occured in 2010. Also the gutting of the Voter Rights Act in 2013.
    It's not helpful to gloss over this highly important shit that occured between 2008 and 2016.
    It's like a civil engineer overlooking a massive sinkhole.

    Also, these structural problems persist in the year 2020. So "winning back those counties", will always be difficult until gerrymandering and the VRA are fixed.
    A few points:

    1. In 2016, there were 237 total flips, of which Trump won 216 and Hillary won 21, which means that Trump's net was only +195.

    2. Gerrymandering has to do with Congressional districts, not county lines, so that has nothing to do with county flipping.


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  20. #34460
    https://lawandcrime.com/2020-electio...esident-trump/

    And Trump supporters are sending violent threats to the AZ SoS and her family.

    VerY FInE PeopLe

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