1. #35761
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nope.

    Anyone gullible enough to take in disinformation like that is also heavily resistant to the facts that debunk that disinformation. They're like the anti-vaxxers who don't care about the 30,000 papers demonstrating the efficacy of vaccines; they've got that one (debunked) paper that questions them, and that's all they care about.

    It takes vastly more effort to counter these efforts than to implement them. This is exactly what Hitler was talking about with regards to the "big lie", and it's why Trump supporters are so completely out to lunch these days.

    The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of those who fall for this crap. Stop making excuses for them. And expecting the victims of the disinformation campaign to "counter" it is . . . missing the fucking point.
    And this will keep happening. Complaining that some political parties lie and use fake propaganda to slander their opponents and that some people are gullible to believe it doesn't stop it. Ultimately, it's public perception and as unfair as it may be, you can't allow your opponent to control the narrative.

  2. #35762
    Georgia's initial results stand...

    Welcome to Joergia!

    https://twitter.com/charlesbethea/st...351126016?s=21
    New: Georgia's very expensive "risk-limiting audit" has concluded that the ORIGINAL RESULTS STAND & will be certified: "Though the RLA might show slight changes in totals, those changes are not the certified results." #gapol https://t.co/MV4x1vILmD

  3. #35763
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Georgia's initial results stand...

    Welcome to Joergia!

    https://twitter.com/charlesbethea/st...351126016?s=21

    Could recount it 100 more times and Trumpers will still think its rigged.

  4. #35764
    Immortal PresidentGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Georgia's initial results stand...

    Welcome to Joergia!

    https://twitter.com/charlesbethea/st...351126016?s=21

    Pretty cool. Can't believe it was 400 pages ago that some people were complaining that Biden was spending too many resources in Georgia. Or Bernie woulda won Georgia more bigly
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
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  5. #35765
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Georgia's initial results stand
    Honestly this was sooner than I expected.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    Four Seasons Giuliani trying another lawsuit in PA today.
    Giuliani files to represent Trump campaign in Pennsylvania case

    Rudy Giuliani on Tuesday filed an application to formally appear in federal court in Pennsylvania on behalf of the president's campaign in a case seeking to stop the commonwealth from certifying its election results.

    Giuliani, who has been recently spearheading Trump’s effort to challenge the results of the presidential election, made the application Tuesday morning just hours before a telephone hearing was scheduled in the case.
    Giuliani "had to do this" because Trump's lawyers bailed on him. I think we all know why they bailed.

  6. #35766
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Honestly this was sooner than I expected.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Giuliani files to represent Trump campaign in Pennsylvania case



    Giuliani "had to do this" because Trump's lawyers bailed on him. I think we all know why they bailed.
    I’m wondering what kind of dirt trump has on ol ghouly that’s making him gnash and rant so fervently
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #35767
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I’m wondering what kind of dirt trump has on ol ghouly that’s making him gnash and rant so fervently
    Nothing. He's just the only person who will still put Rudy Giuliani on TV anymore, and Rudy's like that former Homecoming King varsity quarterback in highschool that threw the game winning touchtown in their local highschool league and is still retelling that story 40 years later as if it's his crowning achievement.

    Rudy will do what Trump wants (likely because he's lost his mind along with the lower half of his teeth) and Trump will make sure he can get on TV by being in Trump's orbit. It's a nice "quid pro quo", shall we say.

  8. #35768
    I really want the readouts of old Ghouly's day in court..

  9. #35769
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    I really want the readouts of old Ghouly's day in court..
    Well, thankfully we should get them. But honestly I expect them to be boring as fuck. He's not gonna put on the whole act in front of a judge like he will when he's on TV or in the parking lot of Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

  10. #35770
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Well, thankfully we should get them. But honestly I expect them to be boring as fuck. He's not gonna put on the whole act in front of a judge like he will when he's on TV or in the parking lot of Four Seasons Total Landscaping.
    I think he believes his own brand of BS now, but we'll see.

    He hasn't actually argued anything in federal court since 1992.

  11. #35771
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    -snip-
    Whether his approval ratings were high or not, he racked up 70 odd million votes, which is still nuts for someone as batshit as him. Obama would've had a hard time against Trump. He'd have won, but Trump is this weird outlier candidate that has created a ridiculously stern coalition of voters. I don't like it anymore than you do. It's just a sign of how polarised the country is right now, moreso than 5 or 10 years ago. It is what it is.

  12. #35772
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I’m wondering what kind of dirt trump has on ol ghouly
    Nothing.

    Giuliani just knows he has no future if Trump loses.

  13. #35773
    The Lightbringer downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Please stop wasting everyone's time with figures from the Democratic primary.
    Yeah, who needs context when we can just make sweeping statements that aren't supported by the facts.
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  14. #35774
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    And this will keep happening. Complaining that some political parties lie and use fake propaganda to slander their opponents and that some people are gullible to believe it doesn't stop it. Ultimately, it's public perception and as unfair as it may be, you can't allow your opponent to control the narrative.
    If you can't, democracy is a dead system and we'd be well-served to abandon it as quickly as possible.

    You literally cannot "control the narrative" in these circumstances, it takes orders of magnitude more effort to correct disinformation than it takes to produce. It's a battle that cannot be won, not unless you can get the audience to stop being so gullible and willfully blind.

  15. #35775
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Please stop wasting everyone's time with figures from the Democratic primary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right wing like "Iraq Hussein Osama", the muslim terrorist from Kenya, with his transgender wife and his socialist healthcare plan?

    Seriously, how can you still believe this shit? The last four elections completely put the lie to it. Obama won it twice, centrist candidates lost it twice. Ergo this line of thinking is false.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Check.
    Obama was a pretty centrist candidate, which of course didn't stop the right from pretending he was a gay Muslim Kenyan communist, or whatever. People don't really vote on policy, though--they vote on things like gut feelings or whichever candidate makes them feel more masculine, etc. Obama is genuinely and preternaturally charismatic, which appeals to otherwise weak-minded right-wing authoritarian voters, which is where you get a lot of Obama->Trump voters, because those same voters are drawn to Trump's faux charisma / faux strength. A couple interesting articles I read today that speak to exactly this--this is an interview with Ruth Ben-Ghiat on strongmen: https://the.ink/p/strongmen and this one is about progressives and moderates:

    "Left-wing populists often believe that there’s a silent majority who agree with them, if only they can be organized to go to the polls. If that were true, though, an election with record high turnout should have been much better for progressives. Instead, 2020 was a reminder of something most older liberals long ago had to come to terms with: The voters who live in the places that determine political control in this country tend to be more conservative than we are." Which I link because I also believed that until I did a deeper dive on some of the data--conservative Democrats are very, very conservative.

    I would also add that Florida's Republican party organizational infrastructure is unparalleled, and I would also *also* add that this election stripped all illusions about "this is not who we are." If 70 million people thought another round of Trump and the end of our democracy was a swell idea, then this is who we are. Democrats can either come to terms with that and get their shit together, being smarter with messaging and targeting (do you ever hear Republicans say, "We don't actually have any policy ideas because we don't give a shit about the masses, we just want to dismantle the social safety net and transfer the nation's wealth to the oligarchs, and instead of legislating, we'll subcontract out policy decisions to our shiny radical right Supreme Court" or, "We're going to disenfranchise voters so we can gerrymander and ensure super majorities so we can stack courts from bottom to top in order to cement our batshit minority rule in perpetuity"? no? then why do Democrats have to blurt out our every thought and mud wrestle with other in public?), or we can welcome our minority party overlords.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  16. #35776
    The Lightbringer downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you can't, democracy is a dead system and we'd be well-served to abandon it as quickly as possible.

    You literally cannot "control the narrative" in these circumstances, it takes orders of magnitude more effort to correct disinformation than it takes to produce. It's a battle that cannot be won, not unless you can get the audience to stop being so gullible and willfully blind.
    Democrats just need better propaganda. This whole gag of trying to not be divisive when 70 million voters and the entirety of the GOP media machine is able and willing to be divisive is a losing a proposition for Democrats.
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
    - Christopher Hitchens

  17. #35777
    Immortal PresidentGreymane's Avatar
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    How does the Global Left deal with Right Wing Propaganda in their superior electorates?

    Seriously, can our Socialist Betters in Europe and the Anglosphere lend us their awesome Pro Socialist Media machines? Assuming those guys are winning so bigly over there.
    They're basically gaslighting folk abt why some swing district Dems lost their seats and lecturing Dems on how they should run.
    Seems like a good time to look at how well they do in their own races ...

    We also need the translation package. How to explain the awesomeness of Northern European Socialism to immigrants that fled from bad examples of Socialismo.
    Welcome to GEN-OT, have a seat, we'll introduce you to the 23-year-old who will lecture you about how Democrats didn't try hard enough to improve the ACA, and once that's all set up you'll be assigned a socialist who supported Ron Paul up to 2015 to harass you forever.
    "Once bigotry or self-loathing permeate a given community, it is only a matter of time before deep metaphysical significance is assigned to the shape of human skulls."
    -Lady Foppington

  18. #35778
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Democrats just need better propaganda. This whole gag of trying to not be divisive when 70 million voters and the entirety of the GOP media machine is able and willing to be divisive is a losing a proposition for Democrats.
    I wouldn't say "propaganda", but they absolutely need to stop hamstringing themselves in the interest of playing "nice". GOP members committed potential crimes? Charge every single fucking one of them for every possible charge, and condemn them utterly through the press in the most venemous manner justifiable by the circumstances. GOP members won't support COVID relief spending for a stimulus for workers, and insist on there being tax breaks for corporations instead, point out that they're proposing to increase human suffering to pad the wallets of the already-fantastically-rich. They don't support police reform? They're white supremacist jackbooted fascist shitbags. Etc.

    Don't hold back from this. The reason I wouldn't call any of that "propaganda", is because it's just the simple truth. Phrased rudely, perhaps, but still just the plain truth.

  19. #35779
    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    How does the Global Left deal with Right Wing Propaganda in their superior electorates?

    Seriously, can our Socialist Betters in Europe and the Anglosphere lend us their awesome Pro Socialist Media machines? Assuming those guys are winning so bigly over there.
    They're basically gaslighting folk abt why some swing district Dems lost their seats and lecturing Dems on how they should run.
    Seems like a good time to look at how well they do in their own races ...

    We also need the translation package. How to explain the awesomeness of Northern European Socialism to immigrants that fled from bad examples of Socialismo.
    we need to get facebook to be like twitter in censoring disinfo
    this is a hated opinion because even lefties are like " yeah im all about free speech bro" but the reaility is there is nothing like this in human history where misinformation is spread and so widely believed. Also in ww2 the us countered pro nazi and pro ussr propaganda.. with biden as pres we could do alot to counter russian disinfo to, alongside getting priv companies to crack down.. and its not even an anti conservative thing, no one is going to get censored for saying " we need a 5% lower tax rate to jumpstart the economy" they are going to get cancelled for shit like " hillary drinks the blood of children for sustenance, which all of trumpers believe, and alot of those socialist counties in europe like germany dont have free speech, nazis get arrested in germany and are forced underground,
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2020-11-17 at 05:12 PM.

  20. #35780
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PresidentElectMilchschake View Post
    How does the Global Left deal with Right Wing Propaganda in their superior electorates?

    Seriously, can our Socialist Betters in Europe and the Anglosphere lend us their awesome Pro Socialist Media machines? Assuming those guys are winning so bigly over there.
    They're basically gaslighting folk abt why some swing district Dems lost their seats and lecturing Dems on how they should run.
    Seems like a good time to look at how well they do in their own races ...

    We also need the translation package. How to explain the awesomeness of Northern European Socialism to immigrants that fled from bad examples of Socialismo.
    In Canada, it's pretty simple. When you guys were dealing with the aftermath of McCarthyism, we had Tommy Douglas, an avowed Democratic Socialist. He's known today as the Father of Canadian Healthcare. Voted recently as the most beloved Canadian historical figure. He's basically Mr. Rogers on the political front. That's what Canadians see when they hear "socialist".

    The issue in the USA was McCarthyism, and you never got over it because that propaganda remained useful throughout the Cold War, right up till the early '90s. And you've made basically no efforts to counteract it since.

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