1. #36261
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    Also since the dems control the house they can simply refuse to fund anything and also refuse to seat any GOP rep. The govt could basically be ground to a total halt until/unless the vote of the populace is honored.
    But we don't want to walk down that road. If the [unlikely] nightmare scenario happens (which means Trump steals a second term), and the Dems do what you suggest above, Trump can declare martial law, etc.

    And then we are truly fucked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Except that Biden doesn't need 270 EVs to win, he just needs a majority of the votes present. If Trump can't swing any votes to his side, then Biden would only need 233 EVs to beat Trump's 232. That means that Trump would have to find a way to make at least 74 EV's worth of state electors to not show up in order to manufacture a "win" against Biden (or 75 without requiring the House to give him the Presidency on a tie).

    That's an insurmountably tall order. The five flipped states of PA, GA, MI, WI, and AZ only amount to 73 EV's, so Trump would have to get all of them to stall through December 14th, as well as at least one other state.
    That's not set in any law or case law. So if this happens, it goes to Trump's 6-3 SCOTUS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Georgia is on the verge of finishing their hand recount.

    Now, as I posted earlier from PolitiFact and I am just going to assume Giuliani mentioned between sweatstorms and attacking the press he personally called to be there, some conspiracy theorists will say "it's not a real recount because there is no signature match!"

    Once ballots are taken from their envelopes, the signature match part is over, and the envelope is discarded. There is no hand-recount signature match.

    So, expect people to make a big stink about this -- baselessly, of course. We all knew ahead of time the ballots would be removed from their envelopes, and we all knew the envelopes wouldn't be kept. If you don't like that, ask your state and local politicians to change it for the next election, until then, go ex post facto yourself.
    I think with Georgia and Michigan set to certify, it carries Biden to 270+. That Georgia GOP SecState is a god damn patriot hero.

  2. #36262
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The Practice
    Man, the first four seasons of that show were three good seasons.

    For those of you unfamiliar, the "Plan B" was about making up crazy shit about a mysterious dude who could have done it, while misleading the jury on the "reasonable" in "reasonable doubt".

    The Practice actually did one thing really well, by the way, Early on, they got away with a lot of bullshit asking the opposition experts "can you say with 100% certainity..." when, of course, 99.99% isn't 100%. Around season 2 or 3 they stopped, probably because they were told that doesn't actually work. In one episode, the medical examiner says "It's possible, she was killed by death rays from Mars, but that's not what I think happened here!" just to drive that point home.

    Biden is standing next to a dead body with a gunshot wound saying "someone shot and killed that guy". Giuliani is claiming Mars Attacks.

  3. #36263
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But we don't want to walk down that road. If the [unlikely] nightmare scenario happens (which means Trump steals a second term), and the Dems do what you suggest above, Trump can declare martial law, etc.

    And then we are truly fucked.
    With what army? The one that sent the very clear message that they're not beholden to a single entity during a press interview that was very directly talking to Trump?

    Are we going to get a couple dozen ICE vans trying to hold down multiple states?

  4. #36264
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    And it'd be an immediately obvious sham. Let me know how long the GOP's tenuous grasp on power lasts when Dem states simply refuse to pay federal taxes, and you have 80+ million people in the streets.

    ICE couldn't keep a singular city under control, and boomers aren't going to confront any protests themselves.

    The fear of the GOP seizing power is a non-issue. We know it, and more importantly, they know it. They're just pouting all the way out the door and slinging as much shit as they can on the way out of pettiness.
    Sure, but it would be a legal sham, supported by SCOTUS. That's the issue.

    I get what everyone is saying if this comes about (which is highly unlikely, but still technically possible). Rise up and revolt and don't pay taxes and don't seat GOP House members and all that will get ugly, fast. And that road to perdition is terrifying.

  5. #36265
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    With what army? The one that sent the very clear message that they're not beholden to a single entity during a press interview that was very directly talking to Trump?
    If Trump can get Republican legislatures to send their own electors and "steal" the election, "legally", then he gets his second term and can federalize and send out the National Guard to crush protests. Because he'll "legally" be president and will have the authority of the office.

    It's extremely unlikely that this crackpot plan goes anywhere.

  6. #36266
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    With what army? The one that sent the very clear message that they're not beholden to a single entity during a press interview that was very directly talking to Trump?

    Are we going to get a couple dozen ICE vans trying to hold down multiple states?
    You're walking down a completely unpredictable road. Neither of us would have virtually any clue how that scenario plays out - except it's guaranteed to be littered with bodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    If Trump can get Republican legislatures to send their own electors and "steal" the election, "legally", then he gets his second term and can federalize and send out the National Guard to crush protests. Because he'll "legally" be president and will have the authority of the office.

    It's extremely unlikely that this crackpot plan goes anywhere.
    Right - exactly. Very unlikely, again since most state legislatures have already rejected this notion when it was floated to them. AND because MI and GA are going to certify their counts on time.

  7. #36267
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    its crazy to think it isnt just diehard maga people who believe everything trump says but 74 million people...
    maybe we should just split up, i read somewhere 70% of the gdp is in counties that voted for biden
    so lets say all the blue countys go into the new dem country and red countys will be trumptopia
    It's important to remember that these folks are an extremely vocal minority. Of the 350m~ people in the US, only about 20% actually voted for Trump. Of them, only about 10k gathered or the "Million" MAGA March. I can't really tell you how many are active on Twitter, but most people don't really actively follow politics. If you step away from the small rallies and protests, most people have already moved on from the election, apart from perhaps their nightly news.

  8. #36268
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    That's not set in any law or case law. So if this happens, it goes to Trump's 6-3 SCOTUS.
    It's set in the Constitution; specifically, the 12th Amendment:
    The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; -- The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.-- The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
    What they're trying to do is stall the Electors from being appointed by virtue of the votes in the respective states. Right now, there are just lists of people who would become Electors should the state certify a winner.

    If the winner is certified, then the appropriate party's Electors are appointed, and they'll vote for Biden. If Trump's strategy were to succeed, then they would never be appointed at all, which means they don't count as part of the requirement for the majority win via the 12th.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  9. #36269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    If you step away from the small rallies and protests
    It's amazing how often we still see "Biden had smaller rallies, he should have lost" being used, in public, as "evidence" of fraud.

  10. #36270
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Sure, but it would be a legal sham, supported by SCOTUS. That's the issue.

    I get what everyone is saying if this comes about (which is highly unlikely, but still technically possible). Rise up and revolt and don't pay taxes and don't seat GOP House members and all that will get ugly, fast. And that road to perdition is terrifying.
    I mean, if it's what it takes, then it's what it takes. The Civil Rights movement wasn't pretty, but they persevered.
    Nothing is ever easy.

    Anyways, it'll never get there so it's a non issue that y'all need to chill about. The GOP are simply humoring Trump long enough to get help in Georgia and at least hold the Senate. That's it.

    Trust me, they're not interested in a coup anymore than you are, because there's no money and comfort to be made in civil unrest. They don't want to risk being forcibly removed for someone who holds no loyalty but to himself like Trump.

  11. #36271
    We have two different realities at this point. Someone posted this about what just happened. I responded by telling them to watch what gets said in court and then I got called a liar for saying they are 1-29 in court, somehow there have only been 3 court cases. I dont know how you get through to these people anymore.

    I just watched one of the most shocking and astounding press conferences I've ever seen by Sidney Powell and others. Blew my mind! I am now 95% convinced that this election was illegitimate and they claim to have the proof. Find the press conference on line and watch it. It gave me chills that something like this could actually happen. This does not appear to be at all fake and this is not over by a long shot. Sidney Powell is a very very well respected attorney. Watch it... I believe that this is going to be an historical moment in the history of this nation that will never be forgotten. If what they say is true, this is of 9/11 proportions. Seriously, you are probable scoffing but watch it before you decide.

  12. #36272
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    It's set in the Constitution; specifically, the 12th Amendment:

    What they're trying to do is stall the Electors from being appointed by virtue of the votes in the respective states. Right now, there are just lists of people who would become Electors should the state certify a winner.

    If the winner is certified, then the appropriate party's Electors are appointed, and they'll vote for Biden. If Trump's strategy were to succeed, then they would never be appointed at all, which means they don't count as part of the requirement for the majority win via the 12th.
    If they stall the count, the house just won’t do the count. Trump ceases being president on 1/20 per the constitution. With no VP, the order of succession means acting president Pelosi.

    Trumps team has absolutely no idea what they’re doing

  13. #36273
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's important to remember that these folks are an extremely vocal minority. Of the 350m~ people in the US, only about 20% actually voted for Trump.
    Just don't forget that of the 330m people in the US, only about 240m are actually eligible to vote, so your 20% becomes 31%.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  14. #36274
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    It's set in the Constitution; specifically, the 12th Amendment:
    The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; -- The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.-- The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
    What they're trying to do is stall the Electors from being appointed by virtue of the votes in the respective states. Right now, there are just lists of people who would become Electors should the state certify a winner.

    If the winner is certified, then the appropriate party's Electors are appointed, and they'll vote for Biden. If Trump's strategy were to succeed, then they would never be appointed at all, which means they don't count as part of the requirement for the majority win via the 12th.
    Nice - good read, too. I have to agree in what you're saying from what we're seeing in the 12th. My concern is that several legal scholars have mentioned this scenario, and never mentioned this piece of it. Now, they could have just been writing for viewership and shock value, but it gives me some concern.

    However, to be clear, I agree with your above analysis.

  15. #36275
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by passingthrew View Post
    I got called a liar for saying they are 1-29 in court, somehow there have only been 3 court cases.
    I actually caught that part. Giuliani tried to say he led 3 cases, the rest were other people who couldn't possibly be working for Trump because they lost and Trump never loses.

    Your "friends" are saying the same thing.

    Once again, anyone can say something into a mic and camera. I could get in front of a mic and camera and say I had sex with Salma Hayek. If I try to say that under oath, I have a problem.

    Giuliani clearly wants to take all these assertions and claim he has a case. This begs the question, why hasn't he done so already?

  16. #36276
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    If they stall the count, the house just won’t do the count. Trump ceases being president on 1/20 per the constitution. With no VP, the order of succession means acting president Pelosi.
    So this is probably just an academic question, but then what happens? Does Pelosi get to stay president for 4 years? Or would there be another election? Or what?

  17. #36277
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    If they stall the count, the house just won’t do the count. Trump ceases being president on 1/20 per the constitution. With no VP, the order of succession means acting president Pelosi.
    The idea is that they're trying to stall certification only in states that went for Biden. They'll allow the other states to certify and send their Electoral panel to vote on December 14th.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  18. #36278
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    So this is probably just an academic question, but then what happens? Does Pelosi get to stay president for 4 years? Or would there be another election? Or what?
    She stays president until any legal hurdles holding up a Biden presidency are resolved. She steps down once Biden gets inaugurated and there are no "snap elections" so to say.

  19. #36279
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Nice - good read, too. I have to agree in what you're saying from what we're seeing in the 12th. My concern is that several legal scholars have mentioned this scenario, and never mentioned this piece of it. Now, they could have just been writing for viewership and shock value, but it gives me some concern.

    However, to be clear, I agree with your above analysis.
    I thought I linked this earlier ITT (not that the pace doesn't bury things near-instantaneously), but...

    Justia: No, Republicans Cannot Throw the Presidential Election into the House so that Trump Wins

    Authors:
    Neil H. Buchanan, legal scholar
    Michael C. Dorf, Professor of Law at Cornell Law School
    Laurence Tribe, Professor of Constitutional Law at Harvard Law School

    Trump’s Denominator Problem

    But Republicans cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot plausibly argue that the Twelfth Amendment’s silences override the Electoral Count Act while ignoring the Amendment’s plain language. If neither slate of Pennsylvania’s electors is recognized, Biden’s 268 votes would fall short of a majority of the 538 total Electoral votes theoretically available. However, the Twelfth Amendment does not say anything about those votes. Instead, it says that “[t]he person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed” (emphasis added).

    We have italicized that last word—appointed—to emphasize that the Constitution does not say that a candidate must win a majority of the potential number of theoretically eligible electors who might have been appointed. He or she must win only a majority of the electors who were actually appointed. In the scenario in which the Electoral Count Act is set aside so that Pennsylvania’s votes do not count, its 20 votes are subtracted from both the numerator and the denominator. Now Biden’s (assumed) 268 votes would be a majority of the 518 votes cast by the “whole number of electors appointed.” Biden would win in the Electoral College, meaning that the decision would not go to the House.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  20. #36280
    Trump's own team was ridiculing Giuliani on the stream today. Good thing he's sloshed 24/7 so will probably never know about it.

    Oh, also, whoever was running the stream accidentally left the password for the call visible on the stream for a while.

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