1. #36721
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    They're explicitly listed in the chain of succession even in the "failure to qualify" scenario, so yes. There's nothing that says that a Cabinet member is fired automatically when a transition occurs. They just serve "at the pleasure of the President" and can be fired by POTUS at any time he/she wishes. So a new, incoming President will almost always remove the old Cabinet and install a new one.
    fictional Pres. Pelosi would be wise to fire them immediately first second. but the list is void below pres pro tempore until new secs in office.

  2. #36722
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    But that's the problem. The President Elect being named is dependent on the Electoral College actually naming him.

    What if the electoral college can't do that? Won't do that or goes against the certified results?

    If there ever was a case that highlighted the need to separate the positions of head of state and chief executive here it is.

    Really these 4 years have made me realize that our democratic institutions are fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, weak and are further eroding.

    I'm worried but I'm hoping Idiot Twitler will bungle it because he is an idiot. But I'm terrified that the next Reich winger that bamboozles the 70 million death cultists of the GOP won't be an idiot. Cuz if we haven't fixed this mess by then, we will be irredeemably fucked.

    You’re right to be concerned and you’re right about examining power and responsibility of our government.

    But those founding fathers have laid the groundwork for contingencies in case of abuse.

    Unfortunately much it relies on informed and better citizens.

    Right now the only military function Trump has is to declare martial law however there would have to be cause.

    Riots happening everywhere could allow that. But even then congress had to review it and it wouldn’t change the election results. Only Congress could come close to that.

    That’s why we have a constitution it has our backs if good people are willing to know it and use it.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  3. #36723
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The only thing that would qualify as a Civil War in this country would involve a split military. If conditions are not bad enough for the military to split, then there can really be no legitimate Civil War.
    The US Military as an institution is not going to help usurp the rightfully elected President. Even if some Trump loyalists in command attempted such a thing, they would certainly face immediate pushback, if not simply get arrested for treason.

    You could maybe see small numbers of off duty defectors joining up with these right wing militias and organizing, but this isn't like the 1800s. The military has drones and intercontinental ballistic missiles. The militias would be utterly and almost effortlessly decimated if they tried to wage an open civil war. What's more likely -- and I'm sure the FBI is already being hyper vigilant -- is a wave of domestic terrorism.

  4. #36724
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    No, you're not listed in 3 U.S. Code § 19, sorry.

    You could claim to be President, but you wouldn't have legal standing, which is what you were talking about here. DeVos would actually (sadly) have it. You would not.

    Well yes you’re right on that point. The problem is many things would or wouldn’t have happened for that to be the case. And while technically yeah. I’m guessing the Union no longer exist or even functions at that point so the point I think realistically would be moot.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  5. #36725
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    fictional Pres. Pelosi would be wise to fire them immediately first second. but the list is void below pres pro tempore until new secs in office.
    There's nothing in the law to support this, at least that I can see. Nothing says that they lose their positions on January 20th.

    Also, Pelosi wouldn't be President before January 20th, either, and this hypothetical would involve her being incapacitated before then. Regardless, she couldn't fire Grassley, so he'd have to be incapacitated as well for that to really matter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Well yes you’re right on that point. The problem is many things would or wouldn’t have happened for that to be the case. And while technically yeah. I’m guessing the Union no longer exist or even functions at that point so the point I think realistically would be moot.
    Yeah, I was just countering the "there are only two possible people who could be President on January 20th" statement.

    Technically, that list is 15 people long. Biden, if he's officially qualified as he should be, then Pelosi, then Grassley, then 12 of the Cabinet members who are actually eligible to be President.

    Realistically, we'll all be clapping for Biden on palindrome inauguration day: 1/20/2021.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  6. #36726
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    There's nothing in the law to support this, at least that I can see. Nothing says that they lose their positions on January 20th.

    Also, Pelosi wouldn't be President before January 20th, either, and this hypothetical would involve her being incapacitated before then. Regardless, she couldn't fire Grassley, so he'd have to be incapacitated as well for that to really matter.

    Ok but what hypothetical would cause those short of an unforeseen strike on DC literally destroying all of it?

    You’re right about the firing that wouldn’t be automatic and Nancy would have to get senate approval for a replacement. But she can fire Betsy once recognized as President and appoint actors for the interim.

    So yeah I’d like to know what realistically could ever leave the secretary of education in charge.

    My guess is by that point if we weren’t in civil war. States likely might go it alone and leave the Union. Texas probably being first.


    By the way I’m not saying you’re wrong and you for sure know what you’re talking about lol

    But you’re hypothetical is still interesting
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  7. #36727
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    The US Military as an institution is not going to help usurp the rightfully elected President. Even if some Trump loyalists in command attempted such a thing, they would certainly face immediate pushback, if not simply get arrested for treason.

    You could maybe see small numbers of off duty defectors joining up with these right wing militias and organizing, but this isn't like the 1800s. The military has drones and intercontinental ballistic missiles. The militias would be utterly and almost effortlessly decimated if they tried to wage an open civil war. What's more likely -- and I'm sure the FBI is already being hyper vigilant -- is a wave of domestic terrorism.
    Absolutely, a Civil War is exceedingly unlikely in the current political landscape of the US, even as fucked up as it is at the moment.

    It's also far less likely to occur during an attempted election coup. The most plausible scenario (and it's not very plausible, at that) for a Civil War situation would be a duly elected President giving blatantly Unconstitutional orders to said military.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  8. #36728
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Really these 4 years have made me realize that our democratic institutions are fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, weak and are further eroding.
    Look, I'm not saying our government isn't susceptible. We've seen enough examples of fascists rising to power to know that it can happen.

    However, the chain of command, checks and balances, red tape, etc. pretty much guarantee that Trump can't just pull an eleventh hour coup because he doesn't like losing. He simply doesn't have the power to unilaterally take control by force. Achieving such a thing would require playing a much longer game, and a great deal more competence than Trump or anyone in his inner circle is capable of mustering together.

  9. #36729
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    i remember the Gerald Ford succession, he was first installed as new VP then became President. President Pelosi would likely name a new VP to restart the list and keep Chuck Grassley away, but cannot because Senate would never approve anybody ?

    tsk tsk

  10. #36730
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Ok but what hypothetical would cause those short of an unforeseen strike on DC literally destroying all of it?
    I mean, we're living through a pandemic that's again reaching 2k deaths a day at the moment, and we still have yet to weather what's going to be an extremely deadly "flu" season before we even get to January 20th.

    Conditions are far more ripe for this hypothetical scenario than they've ever been, especially with COVID running wild at the White House currently.

    Don't get me wrong, though, it's still a ridiculous hypothetical, just not as ridiculous as it would be most years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    You’re right about the firing that wouldn’t be automatic and Nancy would have to get senate approval for a replacement. But she can fire Betsy once recognized as President and appoint actors for the interim.
    But in the hypothetical scenario, she would be incapacitated before January 20th, so she'd never be acting President in order to fire the Cabinet. This scenario involves either Trump or Pence surviving to January 20th.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    But you’re hypothetical is still interesting
    Oh, it's a batshit crazy hypothetical. Just thinking about "President DeVos" makes me shudder uncontrollably.


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  11. #36731
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Look, I'm not saying our government isn't susceptible. We've seen enough examples of fascists rising to power to know that it can happen.

    However, the chain of command, checks and balances, red tape, etc. pretty much guarantee that Trump can't just pull an eleventh hour coup because he doesn't like losing. He simply doesn't have the power to unilaterally take control by force. Achieving such a thing would require playing a much longer game, and a great deal more competence than Trump or anyone in his inner circle is capable of mustering together.
    Exactly the military the others agencies they also have contingencies for these kinds of events.

    People keep saying how many voted for Trump while ignoring 6 million more voted Biden who won who with all of the above and our allies.

    The only thing Trump is going to do is stall create stupidity and make the transition take longer than it should killing more Americans in the process.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I mean, we're living through a pandemic that's again reaching 2k deaths a day at the moment, and we still have yet to weather what's going to be an extremely deadly "flu" season before we even get to January 20th.

    Conditions are far more ripe for this hypothetical scenario than they've ever been, especially with COVID running wild at the White House currently.

    Don't get me wrong, though, it's still a ridiculous hypothetical, just not as ridiculous as it would be most years.



    But in the hypothetical scenario, she would be incapacitated before January 20th, so she'd never be acting President in order to fire the Cabinet. This scenario involves either Trump or Pence surviving to January 20th.



    Oh, it's a batshit crazy hypothetical. Just thinking about "President DeVos" makes me shudder uncontrollably.

    Damn that’s pretty good. Much better than half of what’s on tv now. Lol
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  12. #36732
    Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

    PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
    https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0

  13. #36733
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

    PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
    https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0
    The only difference is, the democrats are absolutely in the right here.

    Launching this many frivolous lawsuits designed to clog up the court and arguing from such bad faith repeatedly should absolutely be grounds for disbarment.

    They should be making these lawyers scared to pursue action on such an obvious hoax for which they have zero standing or merit. Ol' Ghouly might be thoroughly in the Trump train, but I doubt the rest of these lawyers who are going to want careers afterwards will be so eager to throw their bar accreditation away.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-11-21 at 09:49 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  14. #36734
    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

    PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
    https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0
    Nope. This isn't a "omg both sides" situation. There are generally penalties for filing frivolous lawsuits (usually fines and contempt charges) and when it's on a scale this size for an event this important I think the penalties should increase to match. Good on them for calling them out.

  15. #36735
    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    Since the election has pretty much become a dog and pony show with tons of theatrics, I'm guessing this is a democrat's version of adding to it?

    PASCRELL SEEKS DISBARMENT OF GIULIANI, 22 TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYERS
    https://www.insidernj.com/press-rele...6edlX0YydRoUq0
    One side making a mockery of the legal system. The other attempting to stop that. BoTh SiDeS GuYS!

  16. #36736


    I wish we had footage of all these lawsuits.

  17. #36737
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
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    So you know that court hearing earlier in the week where Giuliani completely humiliated himself given his complete lack of familiarity with commonplace legal concepts and the like? The judge dismissed the Trump campaigns lawsuit with prejudice.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  18. #36738
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    So you know that court hearing earlier in the week where Giuliani completely humiliated himself given his complete lack of familiarity with commonplace legal concepts and the like? The judge dismissed the Trump campaigns lawsuit with prejudice.
    And it's worth noting that dismissing with prejudice isn't an idle condemnation; it means the lawsuit is permanently thrown out. So they have no hope of "appealing it upwards."
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2020-11-21 at 11:56 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  19. #36739
    Banned Saninicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And it's worth noting that dismissing with isn't an idle condemnation; it means the lawsuit is permanently thrown out. So they have no hope of "appealing it upwards."
    That's what we call an oof. Seems michigan meeting didn't go well for trump either story is here.

    MASSIVE FRAUD IN MICHIGAN. Kay, since trump is such an alpha I'm sure he won't have any issues showing a legal basis. Because so far Guliani has done exactly the opposite.

  20. #36740
    Read the judges statements in that case. He was NOT amused. https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/stat...ys-loser%2Fp84

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